New Palvan announced

[Porcy Mane]

18 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

There was an accident in 1961 near Rugby Central where a palvan containing only some empty pallets

 

Makes interesting reading regarding the running qualities of the palvan.

 

Now let's see if the link works:

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Rugby1961.pdf

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Makes interesting reading regarding the running qualities of the palvan.

 

Now let's see if the link works:

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Rugby1961.pdf

 

Thanks for that - it seems that my aging memory is not as poor as I thought! Sixty-three years after the event is not bad going!

 

CJI.

Edited March 18 by cctransuk

[Wheatley]

On 16/03/2024 at 12:30, Butler Henderson said:

There will be those for whom the nominally cheaper price of kit will carry weight over the RTR model ignoring the associated costs in completing the kit to a running fully painted and lettered model,

In some cases it can be cheaper, especially where you need multiples of 'It'll do' quality rather than showcase models. I still batch built 16 ton minerals from Airfix and Parkside kits, the buffer heads and handbrake levers get replaced with MJT and Ambis bits respectively and I've almost run out of the various sheets of Modelmaster transfers with a couple of dozen on each sheet. When I started it was the only way to get a 16 tonner, then the Bachmann one appeared and they were probably a bit cheaper than the kit + bits version, now the Bachman model is more than twice the price of the Parkside kit, if you can find one.  17 quid per wagon difference buys a lot of paint, transfers, wheels, etched brakegear, buffers, springing, compensation, couplings ...  

 

Its not necessarily about price though. If the RTR version does the job I'll buy it, especially if it saves me spending hours on something complex or fiddly or easy to do badly like Toad handrails.  If the Bachmann Presflow had been out when I beat my three Airfix ones into shape I would have bought Bachmann ones instead. Nearly all my brakevans and tank wagons are RTR. Conversely I own one whole Bachmann 16 tonner. 

[paul 27]

Thanks Bachmann i will purchase some of these, can we now have

the BR Standard Banana Van Diag 1/246  Please.

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

If the price of the Palvan matches the Vanwide, it'll be about two-to-one on cost.

or convert you all to 7mm where the difference in discounted prices between 4mm and 7mm vanwide models is minimal. 😇  Admittedly the Palvan is a kit build at the moment in 7mm.

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

4 hours ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Makes interesting reading regarding the running qualities of the palvan.

 

Now let's see if the link works:

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Rugby1961.pdf

Interesting about the GCR mainline, an ER V2 in an accident with a WR Hall. 

 

Paul

[locoholic]

I'll be blowed if I'll be running any Palvans on my layout - I have enough derailments already!

 

Seriously; given the promised variations and the implications for tooling costs, I'll to interested to see how much Bachmann try to charge for these vans. The Vanwides were bad enough.

[21D]

 

Saw the palvans on display at Ally Pally and very good they looked.

Bachmann should have released one of these beasties! The GW Mink A converted into Pallet vans by BR. If the BR version on a 10 foot chassis were unstable then these vans on a 9 foot wheelbase  must have run like a pig on roller-skates!

 They appear to have congregated with the later BR Palvans at Kirkcudbright station loaded with munitions for the nearby military ranges at Dundrennan. The mind fairly boggles at the thought of all these pallet vans loaded with tank shells oscillating between Kineton CAD in Warwickshire and the south of Scotland!

Prototype photo from my copy of Dave Larkin’s excellent book of ‘Pre-nationalisation freight wagons on BR’, which I hope he won’t mind me reproducing here.

I built one from a chopped up Keyser/K’s GWR Meat van kit some while ago but never painted it.

Regards

Martin

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18 by 21D
photo in wrong place

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, locoholic said:

I'll be blowed if I'll be running any Palvans on my layout - I have enough derailments already!

 

Seriously; given the promised variations and the implications for tooling costs, I'll to interested to see how much Bachmann try to charge for these vans. The Vanwides were bad enough.

 

Judging by the prices currently being asked for Vanwides (£33), and the Dancehall brake vans (£30), they'll come down substantially if you wait a few months.

 

[26power]

44 minutes ago, 21D said:

 

Saw the palvans on display at Ally Pally and very good they looked.

Bachmann should have released one of these beasties! The GW Mink A converted into Pallet vans by BR. If the BR version on a 10 foot chassis were unstable then these vans on a 9 foot wheelbase  must have run like a pig on roller-skates!

 They appear to have congregated with the later BR Palvans at Kirkcudbright station loaded with munitions for the nearby military ranges at Dundrennan. The mind fairly boggles at the thought of all these pallet vans loaded with tank shells oscillating between Kineton CAD in Warwickshire and the south of Scotland!

Prototype photo from my copy of Dave Larkin’s excellent book of ‘Pre-nationalisation freight wagons on BR’, which I hope he won’t mind me reproducing here.

I built one from a chopped up Keyser/K’s GWR Meat van kit some while ago but never painted it.

Regards

Martin

 

I have an interest in these vans although pictures of them are pretty scarce!  
 

Have you a source for the information about what they carried, as I’m pretty sure I’ve never read that before?

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, 21D said:

They appear to have congregated with the later BR Palvans at Kirkcudbright station loaded with munitions for the nearby military ranges at Dundrennan.

Do you have a source for Dundrennan please ? This was discussed on a much earlier version of the forum, and we couldn't establish what the traffic was. Dundrennan was certainly discussed as a attractive possibility but it would be odd for wagons to be branded to be returned to their destination rather than their loading point. Also, there are at least two or three in almost every late 50s/early 60s picture of Kirkcudbright and that's a lot of artillery shells !  The other obvious source is the creamery across the bridge from the station. 

 

I have three, kitbashed from Ratio van ends on the 9' chassis from the Ratio GWR 5 plank open. The 10' chassis from the vans went under the 5 plank bodies to make some O30-somethings, and the left over sides were combined with spare corrugated steel ends  ends and chassis from the Parkside spares box to make three free BR 12ton vans :-)

 

Edit - beaten to it by 26 !

Edited March 18 by Wheatley

[jamesmc]

Re the van traffic from Kirkcudbright. According to the book published to celebrate the centinery of local hauliers Hayton Coulthard sacks of powdered milk were transferred onto these wagons from the creamery across the bridge. Such was the volume of traffic that on closure of the line the small local haulier undertaking the work ceased business. Also shown in the book is a large coaster loading this cargo at the nearby harbour. 

Regards James

[locoholic]

4 hours ago, 21D said:

 

Saw the palvans on display at Ally Pally and very good they looked.

Bachmann should have released one of these beasties! The GW Mink A converted into Pallet vans by BR. If the BR version on a 10 foot chassis were unstable then these vans on a 9 foot wheelbase  must have run like a pig on roller-skates!

 They appear to have congregated with the later BR Palvans at Kirkcudbright station loaded with munitions for the nearby military ranges at Dundrennan. The mind fairly boggles at the thought of all these pallet vans loaded with tank shells oscillating between Kineton CAD in Warwickshire and the south of Scotland!

Prototype photo from my copy of Dave Larkin’s excellent book of ‘Pre-nationalisation freight wagons on BR’, which I hope he won’t mind me reproducing here.

I built one from a chopped up Keyser/K’s GWR Meat van kit some while ago but never painted it.

Regards

Martin

 

 

 

 

 

Why do I find it worrying that wagons notorious for derailing were used to carry munitions???

[21D]

2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Do you have a source for Dundrennan please ? This was discussed on a much earlier version of the forum, and we couldn't establish what the traffic was. Dundrennan was certainly discussed as a attractive possibility but it would be odd for wagons to be branded to be returned to their destination rather than their loading point. Also, there are at least two or three in almost every late 50s/early 60s picture of Kirkcudbright and that's a lot of artillery shells !  The other obvious source is the creamery across the bridge from the station. 

 

I have three, kitbashed from Ratio van ends on the 9' chassis from the Ratio GWR 5 plank open. The 10' chassis from the vans went under the 5 plank bodies to make some O30-somethings, and the left over sides were combined with spare corrugated steel ends  ends and chassis from the Parkside spares box to make three free BR 12ton vans :-)

 

Edit - beaten to it by 26 !

Hi! I found this https://www.solwaymilitarytrail.co.uk/trail-attractions/dundrennan-ranges/ but the rest was a flight of fancy about Kineton etc. I've a feeling the website on disused stations said something about traffic at the station. The MOD would hardly publicise military traffic during the cold war or nowadays by helpfully marking vans up. I'm sure the railwaymen and ex-railwaymen on the forum know something. It depends how many shells went into each wagon as to how many wagons were needed? As a former Territorial I can vouch a lot of stuff gets used on a training exercise and how heavy it all is!

I've got a photo of a plywood variant lurking at Thameshaven i'll post sometime tomorrow.

Regards

Martin

 

[21D]

I found it ! Pallet van W114301 at Thames Haven, 1961. Theres more about lot numbers and running numbers which i'll look out plus there is an article in Part 2 of the 4 mm wagon by Geoff Kent if you have a copy.

Regards

Martin

 

The chimney doesn't belong to the van but some Thames-side factory!

Edited March 18 by 21D
More info

[Wheatley]

There will undoubtedly have been military traffic handled at Kirkcudbright but I think James has it as far as the Palvans are concerned. Railway modellers tend to think of creameries in terms of "MILK FOR LONDON" in 3000 gallon glass-lined tanks, but most of Galloway's many creameries produced cheese, powdered milk, baby formula and margarine. 

 

That's the first photo I've ever seen of the plywood variant,  thank you. I feel another one coming on ...

[Porcy Mane]

1 hour ago, 21D said:

I found it ! Pallet van W114301 at Thames Haven, 1961.

 

A fair bet that it has been in use to lead Van den Bergh and Jurgens product  (Stork Margarine) for distribution or transfer to another Unilever plant.

 

... and there's this. Stabled  in their usual spot.

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/37/149/

 

I have a few negs and transparencies of the Kirkcudbright Palvans. Most of them have the legend, "Return to Irvine ScR (GSW)".  Guess who's spent a good bit of time researching Palvan traffic. Lever Bros assisted with the design.

Edited March 18 by Porcy Mane

[Dunsignalling]

10 hours ago, locoholic said:

 

Why do I find it worrying that wagons notorious for derailing were used to carry munitions???

When new, providing they were evenly loaded, the Palvans shouldn't have been any worse than ordinary vans, with which they shared common underframes.

 

Had they been restricted to traffic flows with suitable facilities at either end, there should have been no problem but that was, too often, not the case. 

 

The problem with the design was (quite predictably) that it was not possible to load/unload from both sides at most locations, so they frequently ended up loaded at one end, and empty at the other.

 

That alone would have led to instability, but it also created uneven wear on the suspension and running gear at either end, which, as they got older, meant they remained unstable even if loaded properly.

 

Some were eventually employed (presumably after overhaul) as barrier wagons, with the doors secured to prevent loading. I remember seeing them passing through Poole on nuclear flask traffic to/from Winfrith power station. Late 1970s/early 80s, IIRC.

 

John

 

 

Edited March 19 by Dunsignalling

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

When new, providing they were evenly loaded, the Palvans shouldn't have been any worse than ordinary vans, with which they shared common underframes.

 

Had they been restricted to traffic flows with suitable facilities at either end, there should have been no problem but that was, too often, not the case. 

 

The problem with the design was (quite predictably) that it was not possible to load/unload from both sides at most locations, so they frequently ended up loaded at one end, and empty at the other.

 

That alone would have led to instability, but it also created uneven wear on the suspension and running gear at either end, which, as they got older, meant they remained unstable even if loaded properly.

 

Some were eventually employed (presumably after overhaul) as barrier wagons, with the doors secured to prevent loading. I remember seeing them passing through Poole on nuclear flask traffic to/from Winfrith power station. Late 1970s/early 80s, IIRC.

 

John

 

 

 

This is all very well, but the accident report (above) seems clear to me in that the uneven wheel-load problem, which caused extreme ocsillation and rail-jumping, was the basic design error of having heavy doors on diagonally opposite corners.

 

Poor loading could be a factor, but were the derailed wagons not empty?

 

CJI.

[Stuart A]

Wonder if the exhibition train version will make an appearance?

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

This is all very well, but the accident report (above) seems clear to me in that the uneven wheel-load problem, which caused extreme ocsillation and rail-jumping, was the basic design error of having heavy doors on diagonally opposite corners.

 

Poor loading could be a factor, but were the derailed wagons not empty?

 

CJI.

 

 I wonder if the ones used as barrier wagons had been weighted to balance them up... 

[Porcy Mane]

10 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I wonder if the ones used as barrier wagons had been weighted to balance them up... 

 

Palvans that were authorised to travel at higher speeds had been retro fitted with balanced springs. Problems still persisted and further testing found that one of the causes of instability was that the van body was too rigid. 

 

The western region vans modified for pallet ops were only 9ft wheelbase hence no (or accidental) XP rating.

[Hal Nail]

18 hours ago, 21D said:

Prototype photo from my copy of Dave Larkin’s excellent book of ‘Pre-nationalisation freight wagons on BR’, which I hope he won’t mind me reproducing here.

Also coverage in his The Acquired Wagons of British Railways Vol 4.

 

As an aside, a separate thread was musing if the V21s ever made it to the 60s. The answer, apparently, is yes but not as V21s!

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Palvans that were authorised to travel at higher speeds had been retro fitted with balanced springs. Problems still persisted and further testing found that one of the causes of instability was that the van body was too rigid. 

 

The western region vans modified for pallet ops were only 9ft wheelbase hence no (or accidental) XP rating.

In the early 1970s, one of the GW-based examples was seen as a site hut at Pentrepoeth, Llanelli; it almost caused me run into it on my 'bike! It's origin and identity were a mystery to me  at the time, there being virtually nothing published about wagons.

Uneven wheel-loads, together with 'twist' in both wagons and track, remains a concern The problem seems to arise when several parameters are close to their limits.

[cctransuk]

9 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 I wonder if the ones used as barrier wagons had been weighted to balance them up... 

 

Thanks to a fellow member, I can advise anyone interested in the factual background of the PALVAN saga, and subsequent efforts to remedy the problem, to read the article in the April 1966 edition of 'Modern Railways'.

 

CJI.

Edited March 19 by cctransuk