New Palvan announced

['CHARD]

8 hours ago, Wheatley said:

.... either dog food ...

 

Vans of PAL by any chance? 

 

I thought I'd heard this, but now it seems like it could have been a wind-up!

 

[ColinK]

Typical, I’ve just finished building a kit of one - chosen because it wasn’t available as RTR.

[Ruston]

12 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

It doesn't matter if you are crap at building kits, enjoying building kits is the general idea isn't it?

Most of can't build a kit to the standard of a RTR model, but, without seeing it I can guarantee the Bachmann underframe will be suspect in a few places.

I hope we're not turning into a nation of shake the box modellers.

 

Mike.

To be honest, Mike, I don't enjoy building wagon kits. It's not like building a loco, where you usually build just one example. With wagons its usually many of the same type and it's repetitive and quite boring. There's also the way that some kits just don't build well and don't run well. At least that's what I've found but perhaps I'm just not good at building wagon kits? If that's the case I'm certainly not alone. I don't like spending hours of time and effort to end up with something that may not run well because if it doesn't run well, or derails on curves and points then it's as much use as a chocolate teapot. Not to mention the waste of money in buying the kit, transfers, paint and in some cases the wheels and buffers, too!

At least you know the thing is going to run perfectly straight out of the box with RTR and I'm not really bothered if I've made it or some Chinese factory workers have made it. The bit I enjoy is weathering and that still needs to be done whether it's a kit or RTR. I'd rather shake the box, weather the wagon and enjoy seeing it running than see my cash and time wasted on a kit that may end up being a useless lump of plastic.

[Hal Nail]

16 hours ago, cctransuk said:

and eventual sale to the Army.

On the basis they are used to nothing working properly?

[cctransuk]

8 hours ago, Ruston said:

To be honest, Mike, I don't enjoy building wagon kits. It's not like building a loco, where you usually build just one example. With wagons its usually many of the same type and it's repetitive and quite boring. There's also the way that some kits just don't build well and don't run well. At least that's what I've found but perhaps I'm just not good at building wagon kits? If that's the case I'm certainly not alone. I don't like spending hours of time and effort to end up with something that may not run well because if it doesn't run well, or derails on curves and points then it's as much use as a chocolate teapot. Not to mention the waste of money in buying the kit, transfers, paint and in some cases the wheels and buffers, too!

At least you know the thing is going to run perfectly straight out of the box with RTR and I'm not really bothered if I've made it or some Chinese factory workers have made it. The bit I enjoy is weathering and that still needs to be done whether it's a kit or RTR. I'd rather shake the box, weather the wagon and enjoy seeing it running than see my cash and time wasted on a kit that may end up being a useless lump of plastic.

 

I would observe that, IME, we tend to be good at what we enjoy doing, and vice versa. Unconsciously, we fail to put in maximum effort into the tasks we do not enjoy - with predictable results!

 

I am the exact opposite to yourself; enjoying wagon building; tolerating coach building; and finding loco building a chore.

 

I put this down to a short attention-span - wagon building produces quick results!

 

CJI.

 

[hmrspaul]

12 hours ago, rorz101uk said:

Can anyone tell what the black board is for? Poster of the product? 

Finally out of the bag. Can someone post a link to the Bachy announcements please. 

 

All had black boards. Unusually instead of simply for marking some had permanent writing, differing on either side such as RETURN TO YORK. 

 

I don't think the large number reserved for Channel Islands traffic landed at Weymouth Quay have been mentioned. This was the origin of the large numbers condemned in Feltham MY when we visited in April 1968. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalvan/e3edd810c

Very unsuccessful design, only a few survived in traffic into the 1970s and they had the revised double link suspension https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalvan/e30c345d3 or the very few airbraked versions. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalvanvpb

 

As mentioned a good number became stores at the end of various yard sidings. 

 

 https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalvan

 

Paul

[steve1]

Looking at the release closely, this is more than just a new van; it’s a major step forward for Bachmann. Different chassis, wheels and buffers for specific versions, not just one of each and including Instanter couplings? This is revolutionary stuff. Will they be offering 3 packs with different numbers too?

 

Someone at the company has been studying the ‘opposition’. Will the Red Team go the same way I wonder!

 

steve

[Michael Hodgson]

14 hours ago, Fredo said:

Hi, looking forward to the Pallet vans I saw at Alexander Palace today. Have you considered doing the PALSHOCVAN‘s at some point? Thanks Fred

 

That's a version I didn't know about.  But it makes sense that it would have been wanted.

[Phil Bullock]

On 16/03/2024 at 17:05, cctransuk said:

 

Tended to be used in block trains - until it was discovered that the diagonally opposite, very heavy doors made them unstable at speed, and they bounced of the track!

 

Cue a mandatory speed limit; experiments in modified suspension; and eventual sale to the Army.

 

CJI.

Was it the doors themselves John? Or the fact that if you had a rake of wagons it would be difficult to load them with evenly distributed loads … doors on each side only giving access to one end of the wagon?

Edited March 18 by Phil Bullock

[Michael Hodgson]

14 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Very unsuccessful design, only a few survived in traffic into the 1970s and they had the revised double link suspension https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalvan/e30c345d3 or the very few airbraked versions. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalvanvpb

 

 

 

I understood the problem as being that forklift drivers just dumped pallets into them such that the load was unevely distributed and they rode so badly as to cause derailements.  As they were introduced towards the end of widespread wagonload freight, they were probably doomed form the outset.

[Steamport Southport]

46 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I would observe that, IME, we tend to be good at what we enjoy doing, and vice versa. Unconsciously, we fail to put in maximum effort into the tasks we do not enjoy - with predictable results!

 

I am the exact opposite to yourself; enjoying wagon building; tolerating coach building; and finding loco building a chore.

 

I put this down to a short attention-span - wagon building produces quick results!

 

CJI.

 

 

I think it probably depends on how you started kit building.

 

I went from making Airfix planes and tanks to their wagon kits so feel that if you could build an Airfix Spitfire* then a Ratio or Parkside kit is a doddle. Also much easier to paint and apply transfers as they tend to only be one or two colours.

 

*The old Airfix Spitfire was quite a difficult kit as you had to set the wings up at the right angle or it looked wrong. The tanks with the rubber tracks and dozens of little parts for the chassis were tricky as well.

 

 

Jason

[hmrspaul]

On 17/03/2024 at 10:09, Michael Hodgson said:

 

I understood the problem as being that forklift drivers just dumped pallets into them such that the load was unevely distributed and they rode so badly as to cause derailements.  As they were introduced towards the end of widespread wagonload freight, they were probably doomed form the outset.

Not really, the VANWIDE replacement design was so successful that large numbers survived to be airbraked and used into the 1990s. And traffic such as the chocolate from Rowntrees survived to have it loaded in VDAs also into the 1990s 1987. It was the mis-judged end of Speedlink that filled our roads up with unnecessary long distance lorries. 

 

Paul

Edited April 1 by hmrspaul

[franciswilliamwebb]

1 minute ago, hmrspaul said:

Not really, the VANWIDE replacement design was so successful that large numbers survived to be airbraked and used into the 1990s.

 

The VANWIDE was a much better design from the uneven loading point of view.  With the doors in the middle your average  FLT driver would have to work harder to get all the weight at one end.  Just guessing there, of course, as I was still at school back then 😉

[Butler Henderson]

The problem was loading bays are typically single sided so a forklift load could only be put in at one end resualted in a unbalanced wagon. A clear example of a design not being thought through properly or did the designer think all loading points had operative wagon turntables,

[Steamport Southport]

7 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

The problem was loading bays are typically single sided so a forklift load could only be put in at one end resualted in a unbalanced wagon. A clear example of a design not being thought through properly or did the designer think all loading points had operative wagon turntables,

 

They were only for dedicated traffic flows though. So the fault would be the loaders.

 

 

Jason

[hmrspaul]

24 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

The problem was loading bays are typically single sided so a forklift load could only be put in at one end resualted in a unbalanced wagon. A clear example of a design not being thought through properly or did the designer think all loading points had operative wagon turntables,

Possibly. Even having friends that worked for Rowntrees for decades they are too young to remember these vans. In the pub last week there was mention of trying to get one of the very large bogie ferry vans in.

 

I digress. I think the problem may well have been as you suggest, with forklift trucks not so readily available at many yards. By the later 1960s when I worked at a Schweppes delivery warehouse the product came in on open sheeted flat trucks or the Freightliner curtainsided containers (type M). They could stand in the middle of the yard and forklifts could access either side. 20tons unloaded in a few minutes. But, yes not so easily done in 1954, or even 1964. The few times I went into freight yards I was surprised how often hand loading of vans continued - even the APCM Palvans in 1977 which were simply an extended Vanwide https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/apcmvan/e1a1401db.  

 

Paul

Edited March 17 by hmrspaul

[Michael Hodgson]

10 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

 A clear example of a design not being thought through properly or did the designer think all loading points had operative wagon turntables,

 

Did anybody still have wagon turntables by then?  Or anybody who knew how to use them.

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, steve1 said:

Looking at the release closely, this is more than just a new van; it’s a major step forward for Bachmann. Different chassis, wheels and buffers for specific versions, not just one of each and including Instanter couplings? This is revolutionary stuff. Will they be offering 3 packs with different numbers too?

 

Someone at the company has been studying the ‘opposition’. Will the Red Team go the same way I wonder!

 

steve

I suspect that someone in the company has been studying the opposition. I understand why Bachmann would issue one model wagon at a time and, if there was demand, re-run it with a different running number. From my point of view, it was frustrating trying to build up a decent rake. Bachmann’s HRAs have now arrived with four differently-numbered examples. It’s easy to see this as a reaction to Accurascale’s way of doing things. As for a multipack, I would have thought that the price would be a stumbling block.

 

As for the Red Team, it’s been done in the past. For example, successive triple packs and singletons have enabled a decent train of 21-ton hoppers to be put together. On the other hand, there seems to be a reluctance to produce many types of wagons and just what the new management will do remains to be seen.

[Steamport Southport]

Just now, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Did anybody still have wagon turntables by then?  Or anybody who knew how to use them.

 

Yes. Don't forget the BR Class 02s were designed to fit on wagon turntables in docks and they weren't built until 1962.

 

 

Jason

[Nile]

2 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Can someone post a link to the Bachy announcements please.

 

https://news.Bachmann.co.uk/2024/03/Bachmann-reveal-oo-scale-palvans-at-the-palace/

 

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Was it the doors themselves John? Or the fact that if you gad a rake if wagons it would be difficult to load them with evenly distributed loads … doors on each side only giving access to one end of the wagon?

 

I merely repeat what I'm sure that I read in 'Modern Railways' at the time.

 

Moreover, look at the wagon broadside on - heavily-framed doors with all their fittings over one wheel, and a mere panel of cross-braced plywood over the other. If that didn't produce unequal axle loadings on opposite corners, nothing would!

 

No doubt lazy loading didn't help, but a quick look at the wagon screams 'bad design' to me.

 

AFAIK, the imbalance was never really resolved by the suspension experiments - yellow-painted springs denoted these, I seem to recall - hence their demotion to internal users / static stores.

 

CJI.

Edited March 17 by cctransuk

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

Possibly. Even having friends that worked for Rowntrees for decades they are too young to remember these vans. In the pub last week there was mention of trying to get one of the very large bogie ferry vans in.

 

I digress. I think the problem may well have been as you suggest, with forklift trucks not so readily available at many yards. By the later 1960s when I worked at a Schweppes delivery warehouse the product came in on open sheeted flat trucks or the Freightliner curtainsided containers (type M). They could stand in the middle of the yard and forklifts could access either side. 20tons unloaded in a few minutes. But, yes not so easily done in 1954, or even 1964. The few times I went into freight yards I was surprised how often hand loading of vans continued - even the APCM Palvans in 1977 which were simply an extended Vanwide https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/apcmvan/e1a1401db.  

 

Paul

Even when there were pallets, the loads were not secured to them, apart from a bit of Signode banding around the top layer. Back in 1979/80, I spent some months unloading 60kg sacks of gypsum from F1 Ferry vans. The load was on pallets, or at least it had been when loaded in Germany; due to the lack of anything securing the sacks in situ, they had slid between the pallets, into the space between load and doors etc. I reckon about a third of the load had to be rebagged; so much for labour-saving devices.

 

[Porcy Mane]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I understood the problem as being that forklift drivers just dumped pallets into them such that the load was unevely distributed and they rode so badly as to cause derailements.

 

Somewhere; I have a report into the investigations into the bad riding and derailments of early Palvans. One part which sticks in my mind was that if, a medium loaded palvan with a un-worn standard BR wheel profile, travelling at above 40 MPH encountered rail depression dip of just 3/8" over approx. 10 foot of rail  (not uncommon at rail joints in areas of mining subsidence) one wheel would loose contact with the railhead.

 

Two Palvans in the rake of a goods train that became derailed whilst being looped at Eamont Jnc. in 1960 jumped clean over the trains loco and ended up at the head of the wreckage. Having not had sight of an accident report I don't know if the Palvans where noted as being a contributory factor in the derailment.

 

Don't take the dimensions noted above as definite as it's a long time since I read the report. I'll see if a can dig it out.

 

P   

[Michael Hodgson]

There was an accident in 1961 near Rugby Central where a palvan containing only some empty pallets derailed fouling the opposite line and an express ran into the debris at speed, its engine turned onto its side and facing the opposite direction.  The report says the track was in good order, there was nothing the wagon examiner should have picked up, it was blamed on poor design of the wagon.

[Dunsignalling]

On 16/03/2024 at 12:30, Butler Henderson said:

There will be those for whom the nominally cheaper price of kit will carry weight over the RTR model ignoring the associated costs in completing the kit to a running fully painted and lettered model,

TBH, the kits come with bearings, wheels and transfers so the only extra expense is glue, paint and couplings.

 

A bottle of solvent will do dozens of wagon kits, the paint is a colour needed for many others, and I'd be binning the tension-locks off the r-t-r one anyway....

 

If the price of the Palvan matches the Vanwide, it'll be about two-to-one on cost.