Leaning on/touching Exhibition Layouts.

[009 micro modeller]

On 19/04/2024 at 23:21, F-UnitMad said:

I am immediately reminded of a classic two-word line from "Carry On Up The Khyber....

2nd word "off"... 😂

Well that is similar to a phrase that could be used to deter visitors who do lean on the layout. Given the ‘fakir’ references I also wonder whether a selection of pins sticking out of the layout* would help… 😂

 

*Given some of the more ‘interesting’ responses to this thread I feel obliged to point out that This Is A Joke - and anyway, who would want to get blood on their model railway scenery? Even if it is only from one little prick** it would still leave a stain.
 

**Referring to the type of injury sustained, obviously, not the offending visitor themself… 😅

[Dagworth]

A sound engineer friend had a punter at a gig say to him "what happens if I touch that button?"

 

The answer "Your nose bleeds" wasn't what he expected!

 

Andi

[009 micro modeller]

33 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

I must say I am appalled by the incidents which have been recounted above, I would never dream of touching a layout, just like you shouldn’t touch a museum exhibit or anything in a National Trust property unless invited to do so.

Indeed, though in museums it doesn’t apply universally (living museums, object handling etc.). In those sort of contexts there is generally clearer signposting about this than in a model railway exhibition.

 

37 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

I can only think this is an education issue, respect for other people’s property starts at primary school and should be taught in the home. 

Given that a lot of the incidents in this thread seem to have involved adults shoving cameras into layouts, or even just using them as armrests, I’m not sure this is the main point that I’d take from this.

 

1 hour ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Not quite that easy - exhibition venues are getting more and more expensive and space is often at a premium.

 

Agreed - just not sure it’s worth having everything so close together just to allow one more layout/trade stand to squeeze in if it’s leading to other problems.

[009 micro modeller]

59 minutes ago, MichaelE said:

If I had touched another's personal property when I was a child, it was an automatic trip to the Loo to have my ass tanned. I was taught not to touch anything that didn't belong to me, without permission.

 

That included the grocery and department store shopping trips, relatives' houses, etc. 

 

In my experience, parents don't teach that any longer, nor are they disciplined when they do muck up someone's property with their grubby hands.

I shouldn’t have to write this sentence, but hitting children is not the solution here. Especially given that, in my experience of model railway exhibitions, it’s usually very young kids (under 5s) who don’t understand as well as older ones anyway.

 

I have led museum object handling sessions, including one specifically for Early Years, and they were OK, though many of the same sort of concerns raised in this thread apply. In fact in some ways it’s worse, as visitors are supposed to be handling the objects (but need to do so in a careful and proper way) and it may be more difficult to repair/replace them if they are damaged.

[burgundy]

On the few occasions that Vintners' Yard has been exhibited, a step stool goes with it. Most of the time, I sit on the stool at the front of the layout, so that I can chat to visitors.

The layout is above an accessible height for small children and so, when one appears, they are offered the step stool, as long as they hold onto the cross bar at the back with both hands. This makes it very hard to poke things. 

For older children, there is a "homework" sheet of things for them to find. This provokes a conversation (preferably involving the parents) and also seems to reduce the need to touch everything. 

Best wishes 

Eric  

[96701]

28 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

A sound engineer friend had a punter at a gig say to him "what happens if I touch that button?"

 

The answer "Your nose bleeds" wasn't what he expected!

 

Andi

In the very early days of office computers a clerk asked me what would happen if he flicked the power switch off. He didn't expect the response "All your teeth fall out".

[MarcD]

I was at a show last year and someone actually pushed between my layout and the next one so he could get a photo. It was made worse as he was attach to a large rucksack. When I stated that the gap was not for the public I just got a look as if I was stuck to the bottom of his shoe.

Marc

[Neil]

I'm a little troubled at the direction this thread seems to be taking. While it may be galling to have your layout touched, prodded or leaned on, the responses invoking the possibility of injury or aggression seem to be very much over the top. We can do better than this.

[009 micro modeller]

3 minutes ago, Neil said:

I'm a little troubled at the direction this thread seems to be taking. While it may be galling to have your layout touched, prodded or leaned on, the responses invoking the possibility of injury or aggression seem to be very much over the top. We can do better than this.

Agreed - which is why I felt the need to clearly state that my post about pins etc. was a joke. And we’re largely talking about accidental damage or misdirected youthful enthusiasm in this thread, not large-scale wilful destruction and vandalism like the Market Deeping incident a few years ago.

[Captain Kernow]

Surely crowd control barriers will solve a lot of these problems?

 

[Neil]

34 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Surely crowd control barriers will solve a lot of these problems?

 

 

They will, but in my experience many small shows don't have them and perhaps don't have the space to have them. Last week I put together the floorplan for Corris Railway show, held in The Plas, Machynlleth, this August (plug) and there isn't the space to have a meaningful show if  barriers were used. If we wanted to I don't know  where would we source them from. Given that the usual attendance is around the 300 mark over two days then I guess that barriers aren't a necessity.

 

The most impressive piece of damage happened a couple of years ago when a 16mm live steam Darjeeling B class reached escape velocity on one of the corners of its layout and went scampering across the floor. Maybe the public should be better protected from the exhibits.

[009 micro modeller]

59 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Surely crowd control barriers will solve a lot of these problems?

 

In some cases yes, but as well as the space and other issues already mentioned I don’t always like them as an exhibitor as they obscure the view of the layout for visitors (depending on viewing height) or make operator access to the front difficult. Also if badly placed they can be forced towards the layout if it is crowded or somebody falls on the barrier, which isn’t great (I’m particularly thinking of the larger metal kind - I’d rather somebody brushed against the layout with their elbow than the front of it got clobbered by one of those).

 

(I think we’ve previously done the discussion of how to design an effective exhibition barrier to death in another thread so won’t bother here - IIRC lots of discussion about whether they should be springy and lightweight, or substantial enough to lean on.)

[fulton]

4 hours ago, Andymsa said:

I wonder if this a uk problem, having just returned from the Dortmund intermodellbau most layouts you could go right up to and ppl seemed well behaved in regards to touching layouts, of course there may have been exceptions. On a different note yes they have the rucksack brigade as well. 

Exhibited there with my Port Victoria layout, more then a few years ago, very busy no barriers, shortly after opening a rucksack came within a millimetre of taking out one of my buildings, a piece of 2x1 packing was hurriedly g cramped as a protection post, no other problems. a very enjoyable time.  

[melmoth]

10 hours ago, fulton said:

Exhibited there with my Port Victoria layout, more then a few years ago, very busy no barriers, shortly after opening a rucksack came within a millimetre of taking out one of my buildings, a piece of 2x1 packing was hurriedly g cramped as a protection post, no other problems. a very enjoyable time.  

 

The Germans have a history of needing more Lebensraum

[Neil]

A further thought.  As an exhibitor, there may be a few pertinent questions to ask of the organiser before accepting an invite. Do you provide barriers? How busy (how many through the door per day) is the exhibition? What is the character of the exhibition; is it aimed at the general public, is it a specialist event or is it a bit of both?  No guarantee that all risk will be averted but at least you'll have a better idea of what to expect.

[Phil Parker]

49 minutes ago, Neil said:

A further thought.  As an exhibitor, there may be a few pertinent questions to ask of the organiser before accepting an invite. Do you provide barriers? How busy (how many through the door per day) is the exhibition? What is the character of the exhibition; is it aimed at the general public, is it a specialist event or is it a bit of both?  No guarantee that all risk will be averted but at least you'll have a better idea of what to expect.

 

The only question I used to ask was "Do you provide barriers?" - if the answer was no, and I really wanted to go, I'd borrow a couple from the club and take them with me. Generally though, it was no barriers, no attendance. People will lean on something, and if it's not a barrier, then it will be the layout, no matter how much scenery gets squashed.

 

 

As for the rest, I don't care if you rub yourself down with a damp copy of MRJ every morning, uninvited poking of my layout is a capital crime. In my experience, "enthusiasts" are no better than the general public, and older people no better than children, in their respect for the models on display.

[2E Sub Shed]

15 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Also if badly placed they can be forced towards the layout if it is crowded or somebody falls on the barrier, which isn’t great (I’m particularly thinking of the larger metal kind - I

Seen the metal sort as in the picture  "creep" towards the layout during the day at an exhibition.

 

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

20 minutes ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

Seen the metal sort as in the picture  "creep" towards the layout during the day at an exhibition.

 

 

 

 

 

Usually not set up properly.

 

They should be able to resist quite a few tons of weight at the front of a music gig or similar if used correctly.

 

 

Jason

[SM42]

Barriers will always creep inwards  but the worst kinds are those that look sturdy but aren't or those that don't look ay a sturdy and provd to collapse ag the merest hit of pressure. ( concrete flower pots and ropes I'm looking at you)

 

The worst offender we had was the operator. 

 

Had to lean full weight on the support table that was lightweight and purely designed to hold up the layout and control system. Maybe a cup of tea  and cake too. 

 

Why some people find it hard to stand up, or even sit on stool provided is beyond me. 

 

Mind you he had to lean so he could get his head up against the inside of the lighting unit. 

 

If only we'd used filament lamps. 

 

We don't left him operate the layout now. 

 

Andy

[Dagworth]

7 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Usually not set up properly.

 

They should be able to resist quite a few tons of weight at the front of a music gig or similar if used correctly.

 

 

Jason

It’s car park barrier aka ped barrier. It’s designed to guide people not contain them.  It is lethal and should NEVER be used in the front of a gig. They are not designed for a pushing load. If they go over the feet are sharp and will kill. 
 

There is a case on record where they were used as a gig barrier and someone got excited and jumped up and down on the lower bar which became detached from the rods. Some of the rods became detached at the top however and entered the rib cage of the person jumping.

 

Pit barrier is a significantly better design with a large plate under the feet of the audience so they weigh the thing down, and diagonal bracing behind it to resist pushing forces. It also has a step in the back of it for the pit crew to assist people over it if needed. Each section is firmly bolted to the piece next to it. It will still move in case of surges though. (See video of the Manchester gig crowd surge

 

Andi

[woodenhead]

@Dagworth Thanks for that, exactly the sort of anxiety inducing crowd I avoid.

 

[SM42]

The one thing I worry about with barriers is the propensity for parents to sit small children on them. 

 

Legs go flailing as they are lifted over to be sat 9n barrier and then of course there's is the almost universal propensity for dangling legs to be swung back and forth 

 

Then they flail about again as child is lifted off the barrier. 

 

Far more potential for damage than the leaner and probably more common

 

 

Andy 

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

Seen the metal sort as in the picture  "creep" towards the layout during the day at an exhibition.

 

41 minutes ago, SM42 said:

The one thing I worry about with barriers is the propensity for parents to sit small children on them. 

 

Legs go flailing as they are lifted over to be sat 9n barrier and then of course there's is the almost universal propensity for dangling legs to be swung back and forth 

 

Then they flail about again as child is lifted off the barrier. 

 

Far more potential for damage than the leaner and probably more common 

Then what I do is move the barrier a bit further from the layout and remember to keep a close watch on it throughout the day.

 

[Neil]

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The only question I used to ask was "Do you provide barriers?" - if the answer was no, and I really wanted to go, I'd borrow a couple from the club and take them with me. ....

 

There is a potential problem with this.  All is OK if the layout is operated from the front as space at the front of the layout will (should be) factored into the planning, however if operating from the rear the effective front of the layout will be a couple of feet forward impinging into the gangway. This may still be OK if it's in one of those spaces where the layout itself can be pushed back or where the gangway widens out but things don't always work out that way. 

 

I feel it would be worth indicating the intention to do this to the show organiser in the hope that this can be worked into the floorplan.

[Phil Parker]

3 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

There is a potential problem with this.  All is OK if the layout is operated from the front as space at the front of the layout will (should be) factored into the planning, however if operating from the rear the effective front of the layout will be a couple of feet forward impinging into the gangway. This may still be OK if it's in one of those spaces where the layout itself can be pushed back or where the gangway widens out but things don't always work out that way. 

 

I feel it would be worth indicating the intention to do this to the show organiser in the hope that this can be worked into the floorplan.

 

Sorry, I didn't bother giving the full discussion between myself and the exhibition organiser. In over 100 shows, it wasn't an issue, but if I was bringing barriers, I'd normally let them know.

 

The extra space for a rear-operated layout was less than a foot. If your show is so tightly packed that this makes a difference, there is a bigger problem.