Need - vs - Want

[Neil]

The recent paired announcement by Dapol of a 14XX and 517 tank engines raises an intriguing opportunity to compare what motivates our purchases. Both locos are GWR 0-4-2 tank engines, both from the same manufacturer, at the same price and it wouldn't surprise me that there will be much about the mechanism that is shared. Now although all model railway spending really comes in the want rather than need category if we shift the definition a little I would hazard a guess that the 14XX would be the appropriate loco for most GWR/WR layouts and could be said to be the one that's needed by most. However it seems from the thread announcing the model that there's more excitement around the 517. It is to my eyes the more charming, prettier loco especially in either the lined green with red frames or the lined chocolate. It'll be interesting to see which sells the most or sells the fastest, whether need or want motivates the most. I suppose it'll also be interesting to see Dapol's reaction to this; if need comes out top then we might see more of the mainstream, with as wide a distribution in time and place as possible but if want tops the sales then maybe we will see more of the pretty and charming yet restricted in era or place.

[woodenhead]

Lots of people already own 14xxs.

 

Some are Airfix, some Hornby and quite a few will be DJM.  The last one is lacking a key part and has some gremlins that caused angst, but they did sell out eventually.

 

The only people with 517s at the moment built them and interest in pre-grouping and early grouping is on the rise.

 

I have a 14xx by DJM, I don't need another one, though I might be tempted if it is so much better than the DJM mechanism.  But I'd quite like a 517 to haul some 4 and 6 wheelers. 

 

There really isn't a need to buy either and I'd need to pull my finger out on my N gauge layout to begin OO modelling again even though I have the OO layout in my minds eye including it's location and reason d'etre.

[GMKAT7]

Good afternoon folks,

 

Having had an Airfix 14xx, which I detailed using the Iain Rice/Mainly Trains kit and then moved it on, I am keenly anticipating the new Dapol version when it arrives.

Having read of the horror stories about the Hattons/DJM one I gave it a swerve.

 

However, the 517 is exerting a siren-like call, to keep my SECR locos and SECR/LSWR/LBSCR wagons company.

They look so alluring in the pre-grouping livery.

 

Want yes, need no 😁

 

Cheers, Nigel.

[franciswilliamwebb]

2 hours ago, Neil said:

model railway spending really comes in the want rather than need category

 

Naughty.  I'll let Thomas Hardy field that one: “Tis a talent the Lord has mercifully bestowed upon us, and we ought not to neglect it.”😇

[Captain Kernow]

I have 14XXs and I also have a 517. I certainly don't need any more.

 

Yet I am following the Dapol thread with a lot of interest...

 

[Bernard Lamb]

Nostalgia is alive and well. Probably best not to go into the possible reasons why that is the case.

Back in the 1960s GWR BLTs were the in thing. But, for most, limited to the 14XX and 57XX classes.

With earlier generation RTR models being produced for other companes it will be interesting to see if turning back the clock works for the GWR.

Bernard

[Steamport Southport]

Yes. Watching with interest. But already have enough* 14XXs (Airfix/Mainline/etc, and K's). Don't really need a 517 as they were all gone pretty early and there are four kits already available.

 

Would have preferred a Large Metro personally as no one else makes one.....

 

 

*Read that as too many

 

 

Jason

[Craigw]

I do not have a need for a 517. I have a Mitchell 517 close to done and another two stashed away. The 14XX is not of interest to me. That being said, I am following the Dapol thread with interest. It is fun to learn things, see others learn and sometimes even contribute something. I will probably get the Dapol trailer and I already have a set of the City stock. I am impressed that Dapol and Rapido are expanding support in other eras. I buy some stock, that fits with my interest but I am pleased that they are doing actual prototypes rather than going down the fiction routine that several others have foisted upon those who are interested in railways before 1948.

 

Craig W

[leopardml2341]

Need Vs Want?

#simples.....

 

'Need' is a life essential.

 

'Want' is a life enhancement.

 

Etgo model trains must alwyas be 'wants'.

Edited May 13 by leopardml2341

[Reorte]

9 minutes ago, leopardml2341 said:

Need Vs Want?

#simples.....

 

'Need' is a life essential.

 

'Want' is a life enhancement.

 

Etgo model trains must alwyas be 'wants'.

Hence the OP shifting the definition a little. Perhaps read it as "In order to build the layout I want I need..."

 

Neither for me personally, not modelling the GWR, but I tend to find that whatever I need for my plans starts to tick the want box too.

[Neil]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

..... but I tend to find that whatever I need for my plans starts to tick the want box too.

 

That's a very neat summing up; I was wondering if the reverse will prove to be true in that the thing you want becomes a thing you need (in the context of the shifted definition). 

[Reorte]

10 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

That's a very neat summing up; I was wondering if the reverse will prove to be true in that the thing you want becomes a thing you need (in the context of the shifted definition). 

Easily done I think. I don't find it hard to imagine that there are plenty of layouts that have been built around getting hold of a particular model that just happened to catch the eye.

[leopardml2341]

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

Hence the OP shifting the definition a little. Perhaps read it as "In order to build the layout I want I need..."

 

Ah yes......

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 10/05/2024 at 16:43, Neil said:

...what motivates our purchases...

... on hobby purchases, curiosity drives a lot of my 'wants'. When superior RTR OO started to appear from China in the late 1990s, I bought samples of everything as it became available, simply to get a feel for what was being produced. Even now I will buy the first vaguely useful item from new entrants to assess. 

 

Somewhat frustrated at present that there are half a dozen new entrants to RTR OO that haven't produced anything in the way of traction in particular that meets that 'vaguely useful' criterion...

[The Johnster]

I am an impoverished pensioner (cue tragic violins) and cannot spend any of my limited income on trains without considering what has to be foregone in order to manage this.  This is a situation which pulls the want/need dichotomy into sharp and continual focus; in fact, it could be argued that if I were to budget rationally I would accept that I cannot really afford a layout at all.  But I ignore that, and muddle on as best I can; the bills are paid and I eat well enough, and trains are still acquired (I probably spend less on clothes than most people do, and spend a lot less up the pub these days as well).

 

Cwmdimbath is set in the Tondu valleys of central Glamorgan in the 1948-58 period, and it is not a model railway, it is a real railway serving the needs of a fictional mining village and it's fictional colliery in a real place.  Acquisitions of locos and passenger stock are restricted therefore to those classes and diagrams that were actually allox TDU in this period.  As far as is practicable given the budget restrictions, anyway; a lot of the passenger stock is a compromise, for example my 57' Collett non-gangwayed bowenders are Hornby RTR types that never saw the sky over South Wales though diagrams of similar outlined coaches did.  I do my best, and the authenicity improves over time; when finances allow I intend to buy a further Hornby compo to cut'n'shut a valleys all-third from, and it's chassis can be used under a Comet brake 3rd.  I am overprovided with first-class accommodation; the Tondu services did not run to first-class except for the Porthcawl-Cardiff 'Residential' gangwayed commuter train.

 

I have as many locos as I need to run the service allowing for temporary withdrawals for boiler washouts, works visits, &c.  But one of my policies is to include as many variations of livery and detail as possible, so i will likely be indulging in a Rapido 8750 without a top feed, and in any case could do with another auto-fitted 4575, tx Rapido,  I think I'll forego a 44xx, much as I'd like one, because despite TDU having them on the books to work the sharply-curved upgraded tramroad Porthcawl branch until 1953, I have seen no evidence of then penetrating the mountain fastnesses.  Much as I'd like one of the new Accurascale 0-4-2Ts, actually both of them, these lived up the road at Llantrisant and again I have no evidence of them in the Tondu valleys.

 

I will, if funds permit, occasionally take the bait on eBay if the loco is priced at a good level, particularly a non-runner which I think I can fettle up; I have acquired a 56xx and a 4575 in this way, but this is a high-risk strategy. 

 

So, my take on the question is that I don't need a model railway at all, but since I choose to ignore that and have one anyway, I need (to complete the picture) models of the locos, coaches, and goods/mineral stock, plus colliery locos, but I want more and examples of stuff I haven't got with much more tenuous connections to the area and period.  Rule 1 gets invoked here; I wanted, and bought from the bay because one was going cheap and I had the cash, a BR 3MT prairie, 'on loan from Barry who are in no rush to ask for it back'.  A through working from Briton Ferry for Dimbath Metals (Galvanising & Electroplating) might in future feature a Dyffryn Yard Taff A or Rhymney R, unfinished whitemetal kits.  But Rule 1 is a tricksy thing, with great freedom comes great responsibility, and there are limits that I will not go beyond.

 

 

[Willie Whizz]

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

Easily done I think. I don't find it hard to imagine that there are plenty of layouts that have been built around getting hold of a particular model that just happened to catch the eye.

 

And conversely, too - layouts that haven't been built for want of a particular model.  By the time I got my hands on an O2 and heard of the prospect of an E1, it was clearly going to be too late in life to complete my Last Great Project layout and start an Isle of Wight branch line as well.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Of course, if Cwmdimbath had actually existed, Tondu would have needed an extra loco or two to cover the additional services. Who knows what types they would have been?

[Captain Kernow]

 

Trying to justify a 'want' as a 'need' is a constant source of stress for one's wallet, which probably wishes we'd all just give up model trains and try growing our own prunes instead...

 

 

Edited May 13 by Captain Kernow

[tractionman]

I have just become much more disciplined on model purchases these past few years, partly out of necessity but also because recently my spare time has become very short and so I'm continually diverted away from layout building, so buying yet more stuff just feels, well, 'wrong', as anything new and shiny would just join all the other boxes in the loft awaiting 'the day'...  

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

18 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

...And conversely, too - layouts that haven't been built for want of a particular model...

Very nearly so in my case: finally had the time and space to build an extensive model railway, but the RTR OO simply wasn't good enough in all of accuracy, mechanism capability and range of subject choice, to make a UK main line subject feasible; so the planned alternative was a North American based fictional mash up in HO.

 

Then Bachmann popped up with competent RTR OO of 'the everyday items' essential for  such a project. That was what I needed for my UK subject project, because just for a start no way was I going to build 200 x 16T minerals, the single most numerous essential item.

 

 

[The Johnster]

On 13/05/2024 at 17:09, D9020 Nimbus said:

Of course, if Cwmdimbath had actually existed, Tondu would have needed an extra loco or two to cover the additional services. Who knows what types they would have been?

 

This is true.  Tondu provided locos and stock for five branches, Porthcawl, Abergwynfi, Blaengarw, Nantymoel, and, until 1933, Gilfach Goch (reversal at Hendreforgan and it still wasn't an auto service), as well as work on the Bryncethin-Llanharan and OVE routes, and through work as far as Cardiff and Llandeilo Jc.  The allocation varied but after the Gilfach Goch closure was usually around 50 locos, but it would be far too simplistic to suggest that each branch had 10 locos, or even 5, to handle it's work.  That said, the Tondu Valleys branches were probably the most intensely worked single track network in the world, being close to capacity except for the few hours between half past midnight and about 5am when nothing ran and the boxes were closed (nothing ran on Sundays either).

 

I think it is probably reasonable to say that another 5 engines would have had to have been found from somewhere had there ever been a branch to Cwmdimbath, but that is not the same as saying that any of those engines would appear there on any working day, never mind all of them.  I am considering the Taff A and Rhymney R as eventually fulfilling this role, engines close to the ends of their working lives that other sheds might be willing to release, but any more than this would be pushing it I feel.  44xx?  All gone from 1953, and less evidence than for 3100, the shed's Collett 1938 large prairie, 3150 rebuild, no.4 boiler, 5'3" wheels, 220psi boiler pressure, bit of a thug, used on the Porthcawl-Cardiff 'residential' commuter train becasue of it's ability to get away from the main line stops rapidly and keep clear of other traffic.  There is a photo of this on Google in 1951 at Abergwynfi, good enough for me and a kitbash is in progress, albeit at plate tectonic pace...  I keep lobbying for an 1854 or a 2721 half-cab pannier, and have done well over the last decade or so with wishlisting, so my fingers are crossed, perhaps from Accurascale using their new pannier chassis.

 

In practice, though, not all the locos worked all the branches all the time.  57xx/8750s did, as did 1854/2721s before them, I have seen photos of 94xx on Abergwynfi and Nantymoel passenger jobs (they were considered to be passenger engines at Tondu for some reason), 4575s worked on the Abergwynfi and Nantymoel auto trains but Blaengarw was closed to passenger just before they arrived, TTBOMK the 44xx were strictly Porthcawl engines, 56xx were only used on the Abergwynfi branch, and 42xx were used on Abergwynfi and Blaengarw coal trains.  A real Cwmdimbath might well have been wall-to-wall 57xx/8750 prior to 1953 and those engines pluse 4575s on autos afterwards.

 

But not on my layout.  Cwmdimbath is likely to be considered the least important of the branches surviving into BR days.  The 'big towns' were Maesteg, on the Abergwynfi Branch, and Ogmore Vale on the Nantymoel (closed to passengers 1958).  My mum's definition of towns and cities, as valid as any I contend, was that a town had a Woolworths and a city had a Woolworths and a Marks & Spencer; Maesteg and Ogmore Vale had Woolworths'.  Cwmdimbath so far has a pub, a Post Office, a cafe, and 17 houses, even Gilfach Goch could beat that.  The branch has remained open mostly because the extra cost of providing a passenger service on a line that has to be kept open for the colliery is not high over such a short distance, and the road access is steep and narrow.  So locos and stock provided to it by Tondu will be the bottom of the heap, locos that are not in the best condition as would be needed for Abergwynfi, the bottom link stuff.  This plays both to the possibility of Rule 1 Taff A & Rhymney R transfers and to locos appearing having missed their booked job for some fault or other now repaired and taking on what was originally a 57xx turn.  I have decided arbitrarily that the steepness of the branch needs 56xx on the colliery trip though, and that if a 42xx works it it is not allowed on to the exchange loop, which complicates the shunting.

[Philou]

An interesting question. Until recently my collecting of stock had been just about everything and anything remotely useful in the guise of GWR/LMS/BR as no particular plan had been devised plus any new 'Oooh, shiny, shiny - must have one of them!'.

 

As time evolved and a plan emerged AND money has become tighter, my spending has become more focused.

 

Here is my quandry:

 

My layout has two secondary mainline stations plus two branches all within the sphere of the GWR edging on the territory of the LNWR (later LMS) and I have sufficient stock to cover the period 1900 - 2020 (eclectic me). As I happen to like the 'older' stock, then the 517 and 14xx locos will be a want/need for my branches - especially 1401 (photographed on the Gloucester branch in black), plus an assortment of 4-6-0s (5998, 5029), 5243 (resident banker), 3809 being pushed by 5243, unidentified open cab loco (either a 517 or 0-6-0 tender loco - photo not clear enough), unidentified pannier and an unidentified 2-6-0, oh, and a railcar. That's for the one station.

 

For the other station, I shall want a 517 (1437) in green and a brown unidentified one (photographed pulling brown stock) and for the lulz, why not a choc'n'cream one as well. 5818 shall also be wanted. Plus a number of mainline locos - an unidentified 4-4-0, 3808 (could use 3809 as a substitute or vice-versa)  a 4-6-0 (loco with cranked outside steam pipes - maybe a Castle or outside chance of a King as the route was cleared for them) plus another unidentified smaller 4-6-0, an S160 (oh yes, photographed accessing the munitions dump on the branch), various oddities such as 359 and 1385 (Hilda and John Owen respectively), an unidentified 0-4-0 diesel shunter in black and W^D markings being hauled 'dead loco' to the munitions dump).

 

These are just locos photographed on what were 'sleepy' secondary main lines serving two sleepy sleepy branches - if I am to recreate (or inspired by) what was seen. Not to forget there's all the rolling stock being tugged - ranging from pre-RCH wagons, 4 and 6-wheel coaches right through to post-nationalisation stock.

 

I really haven't the will to restrict myself to any particular period, have too much assorted stock already and there lies MY particular problem! :))))

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[big jim]

I don’t ’need‘ a single item in my collection and there are lots of things I ‘want’!

 

the 517 is an example, I don’t know nothing about them, never seen a photo of one, in fact never heard of one until Dapol announced it but as soon as I saw the the model render I knew I’d like one as it’s such a handsome little loco, similarly rapidos par and fireless locos, both of them are on order 

 

I think that since I’ve been able to display my locos in proper display cabinets in my layout room I’ve bought lots of ‘looking at’ locos however as I’ve got a heritage line on my layout they do get a run now and again, beforehand when locos were boxed up I’d stick to things that fitted in with my modelling era 

 

On 13/05/2024 at 13:13, Reorte said:

Easily done I think. I don't find it hard to imagine that there are plenty of layouts that have been built around getting hold of a particular model that just happened to catch the eye.

I’ve got an 009 section on my layout as well as the Modern and heritage lines but I keep contemplating making a stand alone narrow gauge plank of some sorts 

[Steamport Southport]

Needs - things that are needed to run the layout correctly. Could be anything from one 14XX and auto trailer, or a dozen LNER A4s if you are modelling the ECML

 

Wants - things you like that don't fit in with the above scenario

 

ISTR that David Jenkinson did a series of Railway Modeller articles on the subject in the 1970s called something like Rationalise Your Stock Building. The conclusion was most people have too many rare locos because they like them and not enough of the ordinary locomotives such as 4Fs.

 

 

 

Jason

[kevinlms]

32 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

ISTR that David Jenkinson did a series of Railway Modeller articles on the subject in the 1970s called something like Rationalise Your Stock Building. The conclusion was most people have too many rare locos because they like them and not enough of the ordinary locomotives such as 4Fs.

 

 

 

Jason

Maybe, but David Jenkinson still made room for his 'funny trains', I think he called them and ran all sorts of out of period/railway stock, because he liked them. Just didn't run them with his regular planned stock of LMS or Midland stock depending on time of layout.