Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[brack]

The idea of minor lines being well kept until closure is perhaps down to when they shut? Those which closed pre ww2 seem to have run fairly well until the end, whilst post WW2 things really were run into the ground - cash and labour shortages, maintenance deferment/overwork from the war?

 

The other likely factor is that those lines which were parts of a larger concern ran fine until the plug was pulled as there was money coming in from elsewhere, but small independent concerns decayed and dwindled before succumbing.

[john new]

On the other hand Hornby and Hattons’ now do several nice OO industrials and that corner of Leeds had enough lines for a not-quite the Middleton alternative. 

[brack]

I designed the Y7 kit on shapeways. It's essentially in two bits, body and chassis. It took me a couple of days to build/finish it. A kit isn't necessarily some complex etched brass thing.

 

 

https://brackmodels.weebly.com/lner-y7-in-4mm-scale.html

 

There is a lovely brass and white metal kit by Dave Alexander should you prefer a more traditional medium, but it does come in more than two parts!

 

[phil-b259]

On 23/07/2019 at 12:26, Steamport Southport said:

I seem to remember reading the LBSC K was turned down as being too big and modern. Likewise they turned down a Z Class which was in storage. The Bluebell members at the time wanted small pretty engines.

 

 

At the time the Ks were being withdrawn (1962 IIRC) the Bluebell had only just got going and money was extremely tight. The asking price of a K mogul would have been way beyond the means of the fledging railway - small locos were as much a financial necessity as them being desirable on 'small and pretty grounds.

 

Similarly the original 'Beachy Head' was scrapped because it was way beyond the means of Bluebell members to preserve at the time.

 

The Dukedog was purchased by others - and at the time the Bluebell was one of the few Heritage railways in existence so hence it came down to Sussex

 

Equally, the first real 'large' engine, Std 4 75027 was bought by a wealthy volunteer, not the Bluebell itself.

 

You also need to remember that initially the Bluebell leased the railway from British Railways - but a change in personnel after Beaching meant the Bluebell were told in no uncertain terms that the lease would not be extended and if the Bluebell couldn't afford to buy the line outright the scrappers / demolition teams would be bought in.

 

This changed thinking focused minds on not splashing out on locos - which meant several examples that the Bluebell themselves had previously selected as worthy candidates had to be passed over.

 

 

 

 

 

[johnarcher]

3 hours ago, brack said:

The idea of minor lines being well kept until closure is perhaps down to when they shut? Those which closed pre ww2 seem to have run fairly well until the end, whilst post WW2 things really were run into the ground - cash and labour shortages, maintenance deferment/overwork from the war?

 

The other likely factor is that those lines which were parts of a larger concern ran fine until the plug was pulled as there was money coming in from elsewhere, but small independent concerns decayed and dwindled before succumbing.

Probably a rather mixed picture, eg on the Shropshire & Montgomery pre war, locomotives seem to have got pretty grubby, with a long time between coats of paint, then suddenly one would get painted up with lining and all.

The Bishop's Castle, as some stories have it, was mostly pretty run down by the later 20's at least I think (closed 1936ish), the track was notoriously bad (rotten squelchy sleepers replaced, eventually, sometimes with green wood cut from lineside trees), and there are tales of mud from the sodden track splashing up through holes in the carriage floor. However Carlisle seems to have been kept pretty clean, with polished brass etc - so where an individual with a rag could do something there was care and pride, but, I suppose, very limited money for more expensive things like renovating permanent way.

[Northmoor]

On 01/09/2019 at 10:02, jafcreasey said:

 

Resurrecting a thread and quoting myself...

 

Last weekend I visited the Mangapps Railway Museum which has been established on a farm at Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex (there was no railway history there prior to 1989) - for their thirtieth anniversary they had 4MT 80078 and Peckett 0-4-0ST Achilles in steam plus Class 03s, a 04, 31s, a 33, and a 47; carriages in operation were likewise varied, not forgetting a Canadian Pacific Railway Caboose!

 

Whilst Rule One may occasionally seem far too outlandish, you'd be surprised...

I think I said on here recently that it isn't always the (wildly varied) stock that lets down model "preserved railways".  It's everything else: track layouts unlike the original station layout, mixed use of modern and old buildings, the way stock is stored/squeezed into sidings, uneven weathering/cleaning (clean coach sides, paint on roofs flaked down to undercoat), arrangement of people, etc etc. 

[Colin_McLeod]

Heritage railways are trying to model the past in 304.8mm scale, but like a lot of 4mm models they have too much stock for the baseboard, unrelated stock and way too much track. Just my 2d worth as to why they make an unpopular layout subject. Who wants to model an unrealistic model!

 

This is not a criticism of heritage railways, I love them; it's my Response to the OP.

[PannierTanker14]

I find that modelling a heritage railway scene works well as a first layout because then it doesn’t matter what stock you get.

I’ve got a Southern E4 tank with a GWR Toad brake van, plus an LMS 3F on the way! There’s no era or region restrictions. It can be how you want it to be.

[47137]

On 02/09/2019 at 19:56, brack said:

I designed the Y7 kit on shapeways. It's essentially in two bits, body and chassis. It took me a couple of days to build/finish it. A kit isn't necessarily some complex etched brass thing.

 

https://brackmodels.weebly.com/lner-y7-in-4mm-scale.html

 

There is a lovely brass and white metal kit by Dave Alexander should you prefer a more traditional medium, but it does come in more than two parts!

 

 

Your kit looks most interesting, unfortunately it is the wrong scale and region for me.

 

The Middy has been running a Y7 this summer. I took this photo on 14th July, I think this sort of scene would work as a model:

 

There are some notes on the loco here:

https://www.mslr.org.uk/rolling-stock/steam/

 

- Richard.

[johnarcher]

On 03/09/2019 at 09:09, Colin_McLeod said:

Heritage railways are trying to model the past in 304.8mm scale, but like a lot of 4mm models they have too much stock for the baseboard, unrelated stock and way too much track. Just my 2d worth as to why they make an unpopular layout subject. Who wants to model an unrealistic model!

 

This is not a criticism of heritage railways, I love them; it's my Response to the OP.

Their weathering is often not so good.

[brack]

48 minutes ago, johnarcher said:

Their weathering is often not so good.

Depends on the railway in question:

 

 

Glyder, newly restored at beamish.

 

They went to some length to retain the original paint, and on parts they had to renew they put dents and scrapes back in place by referring to photos.

It looks perfect in the flesh. Reasonably clean but definitely a working loco.

 

I remember the o&k utrillas visiting threlkeld quarry a few years ago, a great level of dirt on it.

 

Certainly added to the atmosphere, and those who have worked on or looked after the locos deserve credit for resisting the urge to make everything shiny.

[adb968008]

Back in the early 1990’s I built a OO gauge layout based on a modern BR station, with a Platform interchange to a preserved railway branch line

 

approx 24’ long running into a tunnel one side, and a road over bridge on the other leading to a massive fiddle yard at the back.

 

It was exhibited twice at a preserved railway and was substantially finished, unfortunately politics at that railway, and lack of a permanent home saw it boxed up and moved away, finally as I lost touch with everyone it sat in the back of a non-watertight garage for 7 years and ultimately ended up in a bin.

 

A few scenic bits survive.

At the time though the idea of a preserved railway layout was great, run anything, along side modern image, especially incoming railtours. It got a great reception too at the two exhibitions it did, though admittedly the first one it wasnt quite ready.

 

At some point, I would build it again, but ensuring a supporting home for it exists first.

Edited September 25, 2019 by adb968008

[Firecracker]

OK, I’ll throw my hat into the ring.  It’s pissing down and due to waiting on glue or paint drying, I’m having a brew and browsing RM web.  The current effort, Sedbergh.  Based on a real prototype, closed in ‘68 and remains shut.  But what if?  Suppose it had reopened, what might it look like (without that ivatt 2-6-2, because DCC’ing a split chassis is something I haven’t tackled yet).

Before i I set off (and I’ve wittered on about this in the actual thread) I set a rule.   It had to be believable.  So no blue Pullman, dean single or turbomotive.  Recently, I was reading one of the comics, featuring a model of a fictional preserved railway.  Superb work, lovely locos and rolling stock.  However, they lost me with the rake of pre nationalisation cattle wagons.  Seriously?  How many cattle wagons, period, survive?

 

Locos had to be either ex Barry, ones that escaped preservation (44781, 76080?), industrials or believable survivors (I spent a worrying amount of time producing a believable scenario in which an ex Tebay standard 4 could survive).  I broke this rule once, with a Park Royal railbus.  Then produced a suggestion of how, suppose they were more reliable?  Sure, passenger services for them disappeared, but supposed Derby RTC wanted one as an inspection vehicle?  That could prolong its life a bit more and then it could pass into preservation.  PO wagons, sure, why not, but they had to be local (this got broadened to NW England).  I then realised that these were solely Bachmann of two different designs, so I rationalised this with the railway having acquired an internal fleet from a works somewhere, then repainting them in liveries they liked.

 

But an ex industrial diesel, two tatty pway wagons surrounded by the clutter of a working yard, with smart mk1’s and a DMU on the public side of the fence?  Before anyone says anything about the mini van,that’s based on one a friend and colleague bombed around Cumbria in, c.1999-2005.  Modern tatty portacabin and containers, surviving provendor store and stone goods shed.  The 16t wagon full of pallets is based on one I saw at either Keighley or Bury, can’t remember which.

And for anyone who says everything and every engine is immaculate on a preserved railway, here’s a genuinely ex works preserved loco.  Look at the rust on those rods....

 

Owain

 

[rockershovel]

I do like those figures, very effective 

[Firecracker]

On 13/10/2019 at 16:47, rockershovel said:

I do like those figures, very effective 

Well thanks!  One’s ModelU, the other Bachman.  Mr B on the right is probably going to get redeployed in the future and replaced with a second ModelU example, I’m very taken with them.

 

On the subject of this thread, I realised I haven’t answered the question.  No, I don’t know why preserved railways aren’t modelled as much.  My first two layouts were both preserved railways, I then went onto a 1960’s industrial shunting puzzle set in either the NE or South Wales, this was followed by two fictional modern image efforts, the second in P4.  I then took a 10 year break from the hobby, returning with Sedbergh.  To me, as much effort and research can go into it as any historic model, so where’s the difference?

 

For instance, you’re loading a wagon with concrete sleepers.  If you’ve got my need to get it right,you end up researching the load capacity of the wagon, the weight of concrete sleepers and working out how many can be loaded as a result (where’s the difference for hunting for details on how the Midland loaded carboys into wagons in 1900?).  You spend several hours researching the point rodding arrangements at Goathland, to get your prototype right.  You're researching how to handle cable drums with a set of pallet forks, for a scene in the pway yard. Colours of 205l drums from UK oil suppliers.   Just some of the things I’ve been looking into in the last month or so.

 

To me, I want this layout to feel like somewhere you’ve visited.  There’s a bit of KWVR, NYMR, L&HR and E&BAR in there so far.  It’s also been compared to lines I’ve never visited, so I must be getting something right.

 

Owain

[brianusa]

Sometimes our railways are similar to preserved lines.  Limited locos, unmatched coaches and a Heinz assortment of wagons of every description.. The enthusiast would keep a closer eye on stock perhaps but the average might be tempted by unlikely items of rolling stock or with the current trend of new builds, be interested in running a loco from another era entirely.

     Brian.

[PhilJ W]

The proposed generic four and six wheel coaches from Hattons would be ideal for a 'preserved railway'. 

[Firecracker]

On 14/10/2019 at 22:42, PhilJ W said:

The proposed generic four and six wheel coaches from Hattons would be ideal for a 'preserved railway'. 

Playing devils advocate, they’ll have to do a derelict one as well!

 

Seriously, I’ll admit to watching that project with interest.  If they’re nice, I can see something in either LNWR (appropriate for the line) or L&Y (family connections) livery joining the fleet.  For a prototype, just look at the stately trains operation at E&BAR, running alongside Mk1’s.

 

Owain

[whart57]

On 02/09/2019 at 19:04, brack said:

The other likely factor is that those lines which were parts of a larger concern ran fine until the plug was pulled as there was money coming in from elsewhere, but small independent concerns decayed and dwindled before succumbing.

 

One factor immediately after WW2 was impending nationalisation. Companies hoped for compensation based on operating track mileage, and the independents on compensation full stop. The East Kent Light Railway for example kept running a daily train to Wingham, for which there was absolutely no demand, simply to make it appear they were a going concern..

[HonestTom]

On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 22:42, PhilJ W said:

The proposed generic four and six wheel coaches from Hattons would be ideal for a 'preserved railway'. 

 

Given how many preserved pre-Grouping coaches are mounted on whatever underframes the railway can lay their hands on...

[PhilJ W]

Usually Southern utility van chassis, the shorter bodies are often mounted on brake van chassis.

[HonestTom]

21 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Usually Southern utility van chassis, the shorter bodies are often mounted on brake van chassis.

So the Hornby 4-wheeler is actually prototypical? Gasp!

[phil-b259]

26 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

So the Hornby 4-wheeler is actually prototypical? Gasp!

 

Nope

 

When PhilJ says ' Southern Utility van chassis' he means the chassis found under the passenger train rated Van C / PMV Vehicles - NOT goods brake vans.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/32193/hornby_r4347c_br_crimson_maunsell_passenger_brake_van_van_c/stockdetail.aspx

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/30694/Bachmann-39-530-oo-gauge-ex-southern-pmv-parcels-miscellaneous-van-br-green-black-ends-e

 

An example of a restored coach using such a PMV underframe https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/coach114.html

 

The Hornby 4 wheel coach is completely fictitious and uses a generic wagon chassis  keep costs down (which is why the body is rediciously short for anything other than the very earliest of railways.

[Steamport Southport]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Nope

 

When PhilJ says ' Southern Utility van chassis' he means the chassis found under the passenger train rated Van C / PMV Vehicles - NOT goods brake vans.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/32193/hornby_r4347c_br_crimson_maunsell_passenger_brake_van_van_c/stockdetail.aspx

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/30694/Bachmann-39-530-oo-gauge-ex-southern-pmv-parcels-miscellaneous-van-br-green-black-ends-e

 

An example of a restored coach using such a PMV underframe https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/coach114.html

 

The Hornby 4 wheel coach is completely fictitious and uses a generic wagon chassis  keep costs down (which is why the body is rediciously short for anything other than the very earliest of railways.

 

It's based on a Somerset & Dorset Railway carriage and is approximately correct in length. Yes, the chassis is the wrong type, but it's aimed at kids.

 

This has been discussed at length....

 

Here's the link to the drawings.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89335-Hornby-four-wheel-coach/&do=findComment&comment=1590202

 

 

Jason

Edited October 25, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[Pacific231G]

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but some of the longer established heritage/preserved lines are now starting to approach a time when they'll have operated for longer in preservation  than they did as "working railways".  I reckon that's about eighteen years away for the Tallylyn  but will come before the start of its 2020 season for the Leighton Buzzard Narrow Gauge Railway*.

 

What seems to have been rarer in Britain was for heritage passenger lines to also have been used for goods trains. In N. America that has been fairly common -though perhaps less so now- with short lines carrying freight in the week being used for steam passenger trains at weekends (sometimes operated by the same short line company rather than volunteers as a commercial activity)

 

The same thing happened in France with one particularly good example being the  Train a Vapeur Tourraine. This was a local preservation society, sadly now effectively defunct, that from 1974 to 2004 ran a steam passenger service at weekends. At its full extent the train ran between its headquarters in Richelieu to the SNCF's station in Chinon mostly on track controlled by the local authority rather than SNCF.  Until 1994 TVT also operated goods trains several times a week to and from Richelieu and for SNCF on a couple of adjoining branches. TVT had a couple of large diesel locos for goods and it was a curious but quite heartening sight to visit a heritage steam railway midweek and find an A1A-AA  busily shunting cereal wagons in the goods yard. Goods traffic fiinished in 1993 as SNCF became less interested in taking wagonload good, The steam service continued but was gradually cut back until it finally closed in 2004 - in order to turn the line into a cycleway. There seems to have been local politics involved in this and an attempt to move operations to Thouars failed so, evicted from Richelieu, TVT set about distributing its collection of locos and rolling stock to various deserving associations. I think there have been at least a couple  of other such mixed operations in France and possibly elesewhere and ISTR that at one time the preserved society that runs the Middleton Railway in Leeds handled a certain amount of commercial goods traffic.

 

Such a combination would seem quite attractive for modelling. A heritage passenger train isn't operated very differently from any other loco hauled train, the rules are the same, but is more likely to have say a restaurant or Pullman car in a four coach rake and will likely be hauled by a far more magnficent loco than such a short train would justify. Meanwhile, "demonstration" goods trains never seem very convincing to me, as however well they're portrayed you know they're not really moving goods; give them a real commercial job to do though and it's a different story.

 

 

*The sand carrying Leighton Buzzard Light Railway opened on 20th November 1919, but, apart from the section beyond the current terminus at Stonehenge works,, closed to sand traffic in  July 1971. There was an overlap over part of the line and The LBNGR (originally as the Iron Horse Railroad) ran its first trains in June 1968. So, sometime in January or February, it will have been using the line from Pages Park to Stonehenge for longer than its predecessor.