Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[Poggy1165]

I certainly think you need the "history" if you are imagining a fictional line. For example, the buildings. If your line is supposed to be set in Yorkshire, it's highly unlikely to have GWR buildings. Sounds obvious, but observation of many layouts over the years suggest it isn't. Quite apart from the railway, the "town" buildings will need to suit the supposed area. Scotland does not look a bit like Cornwall, buildings-wise. (Though the business names may be largely the same nowadays.)

 

OTOH it would be quite fun to have a mix of signalling and pretend it is the railway's speciality. The Embsay-Bolton Abbey line is a bit like that, with some interesting signals tucked away, not all Midland by any means.

 

Frankly I think it's easier to copy a real place - getting a fictional one to look realistic will require every bit as much discipline as imagining a location as it was 1911. And a rough date will also be needed, or all your background stuff, especially vehicles, will look wrong. Preservation now covers a long time span. The Ffestiniog at Porthmadog looked very different in 1954 to what it does now, and different again in 1968. 

[chriscleveland]

I think preservation modelling can be challenging. There are lots of areas you can model and trying to achieve this isn’t always the easiest. I understand people’s options on it being to clean, and things wouldn’t run together, and realism, but if you model a real preservation line this makes it just as hard a challenge as any other model railway. Preservation is most definitely different to the real railways but takes a lot of work to really capture what happens. When you dig deeper into this you realise preservation isn’t all clean and tidy and offers large different modelling challenges. Modelling a depot on a preservation railway is definitely a challenge capturing what really goes on. I have modelled Ropley station based on the mid Hants Railway and this has been a mega challenge trying to achieve the looks of what goes on, and into maintaining, restoring, and even running trains. Not all would be in service, some would be undergoing restoration, some would be stored out of use, and some maybe still in Barry condition. There already opens up weathering aspects etc. 

 

I have attached some some photos to show what I mean. Let me know what you think

 

Chris 

[Ian J.]

Thinking about the above, it could be said that in order to model a preserved railway with a degree of accuracy, most locomotives would be out of use for one reason or another, often in a state of appearance that would mean they wouldn't look like they should be moving at all. To that end, we'd be modelling mostly static vehicles rather than moving, which for most of us would be counter to why we model railways (to see trains running).

[tomparryharry]

Modelling a preserved railway? Hmm. Preserving something in Aspic, that is already preserved in Aspic. 

 

Preserved railways always try to portray a bygone 'twee' atmosphere, which only exist in the minds of romantics.  You won't see the rain hacking down at 3am. If the rain is likely, you won't see the volunteers anywhere near the place. Modelling a preserved railway is twice removed from the real thing. Such things as scale, conditions, attitude (both good & bad) and, the human atmosphere. 

 

Havenstreet (on the Isle of Wight) is a classic example. The staff over there work very hard to re-create a country station captured in time. At it's height, it had perhaps some 30-50 people maximum per day. Nowadays, the Havenstreet folk have geared up to handle upwards of a 1,000 people a day, with bus & car parks, gift shops, ice cream concessions, and all of the razzmatazz that goes with a successful tourist attraction --museum. Each & every railway I've ever visited has a toilet & restaurant. Compare that with eating your grub on a platform bench , and finding a bush to have a 'jimmy'. 

 

Roughly speaking, modelling preserved railways is modelling scale 'twee'.

 

By & large, folk on preserved railways work bl00dy  hard to re-create the old days, but on 1:76 scale.....?

[RedgateModels]

44 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Roughly speaking, modelling preserved railways is modelling scale 'twee'.

 

 

Which is exactly what I have tried to do with Fourgig East  

[Colin_McLeod]

Just an observation. A preserved railway can sometimes look like a model railway that does not have a consistent "theme". IE Contains locomotives and rolling stock from different eras, locations and liveries all mixed up. 

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Just an observation. A preserved railway can sometimes look like a model railway that does not have a consistent "theme". IE Contains locomotives and rolling stock from different eras, locations and liveries all mixed up. 

Thats about 95% of all layouts then.

[The Johnster]

Modelling a preserved railway, prototypical or freelance, requires the same discipline, presentation, attention to detail, and general realism as modelling any other sort of railway does if it is to be 'convincing'.  A problem arises when an inexperienced modeller, using the format to run 'anything and everything' but not wanting it to be perceived as a train set, gets it wrong; steam engines haul air braked stock, locos never actually preserved appear, electrics claw uselessly at the air with pantographs or uselessly at non existent 3rd rails with shoes, and in fact it's a train set. 

 

Nothing wrong with a train set, but let's be honest about it, chaps!  I'm not, by the way, suggesting that you need to be a super fine scale scratchbuilding master modeller to attempt a preserved railway (especially as some of my own work is not particularly brilliant), just that it is the same as any other  type of modelling; an attempt to reproduce an actual or imagined reality as realistically as we can.

 

Personally, I wouldn't model a preserved line.  I like operating, and shunting, in as prototypical a fashion as I can and preserved operations are usually very simplified, with fixed rakes of stock which a loco takes to the other end of the line, runs around, and returns, runs around, and repeats the operation.  I'd get very bored very quickly with this; where's the pickup, where's the freight traffic, where's the occasional tail traffic?  But I have no wish to impose my requirements on others, and have to admit that a model of Porthmadog Harbour in it's current condition would be pretty interesting to operate!

Edited July 16, 2019 by The Johnster

[Ian Morgan]

As Chris has also found, preserved railways are constantly undergoing changes - new buildings, extended platforms, tidied up junk, 'new' vehicles, etc.  It is necessary to pick a time period and model that.

[Steamport Southport]

8 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Roughly speaking, modelling preserved railways is modelling scale 'twee'.

 

By & large, folk on preserved railways work bl00dy  hard to re-create the old days, but on 1:76 scale.....?

 

Are all heritage railways "twee" though?

 

I certainly wouldn't consider the East Lancs or NYMR as being "twee". Unless you consider scenes such as this as being twee.

 

Photo from Wiki

 

 

Jason

[betehumane]

I model preserved railways because I've worked on them. It was dirty, hard, hot and gruelling, and without a doubt some of the most enjoyable and fascinating experiences of my life, shared with some of the most engaging, erudite and entertaining people I have ever met. Why would I not want to recreate such beautiful vivid memories in some small way? Isn't that exactly what Tony Wright, Roy Jackson and countless others have done with such skill and artistry?

Oh, and sometimes it rained - I don't remember not turning up for duty when it did...

[tomparryharry]

Everybody is directly entitled to their choices, and I would defend that right enormously. Preserved railways just don't 'do' it for me.  There's a whole selection of reasons, and to go into those would inflame fellow RM webbers, so I certainly won't go there!

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Are all heritage railways "twee" though?

 

I certainly wouldn't consider the East Lancs or NYMR as being "twee". Unless you consider scenes such as this as being twee.

 

Photo from Wiki

 

 

Jason

 

Hello Jason, you've taken the trouble to post a photo, and I'll try my very best to respond. Preserved railway? Yes. Diesels? yes. Gent on crutches? possibly. Monkey on the right shoulder behind the gent? Errrr.  Gaily lit station bulbs? Possibly. Gaggle of orange on the top of platform 1? Parts of this are quite right, but parts of this are quite wrong, In my tiny world, this is the reason why I don't model preserved railways....

[railroadbill]

11 hours ago, chriscleveland said:

I think preservation modelling can be challenging. There are lots of areas you can model and trying to achieve this isn’t always the easiest. I understand people’s options on it being to clean, and things wouldn’t run together, and realism, but if you model a real preservation line this makes it just as hard a challenge as any other model railway. Preservation is most definitely different to the real railways but takes a lot of work to really capture what happens. When you dig deeper into this you realise preservation isn’t all clean and tidy and offers large different modelling challenges. Modelling a depot on a preservation railway is definitely a challenge capturing what really goes on. I have modelled Ropley station based on the mid Hants Railway and this has been a mega challenge trying to achieve the looks of what goes on, and into maintaining, restoring, and even running trains. Not all would be in service, some would be undergoing restoration, some would be stored out of use, and some maybe still in Barry condition. There already opens up weathering aspects etc. 

 

I have attached some some photos to show what I mean. Let me know what you think

 

Chris 

Particularly like the inside of the shed.  Hits the spot, walked round plenty like that!

[johnarcher]

8 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Thats about 95% of all layouts then.

Do you really believe 95% of all layouts have no reasonably consistent theme? (Not necessarily a model of a real place, but some consistency in stock, buildings, scene etc for a period and region?)

Sure, I have seen some themeless ones at exhibitions (often I suspect club layouts, where everyone's models must run), and rather uninteresting they usually seem to me, but looking at layouts that appear on here (I don't get to exhibitions much now) I don't see many like that.

Maybe you're right, I rather hope not though.

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Are all heritage railways "twee" though?

 

I certainly wouldn't consider the East Lancs or NYMR as being "twee". Unless you consider scenes such as this as being twee.

 

 

The East Lancs is a superb railway and a credit to all concerned.  However, am I fooled that this is the 1980s?  No; the locos shouldn't have the single headlights but the main reason is ITS ALL TOO CLEAN!  I remember coming back from travelling on trains in the blue/grey era and always needed to wash my hands immediately.

 

32 minutes ago, johnarcher said:

Do you really believe 95% of all layouts have no reasonably consistent theme? 

 

Actually this is likely an under-estimate.  The vast majority of layouts are expanded train sets that go no-where near exhibitions.  Most of these will run a selection of stock based on what the owner likes and that is how it should be.  Occasionally one or two of these sorts of bitsa-everything layouts do get exhibited, but they aren't the layouts that draw the crowds so don't get booked.

[johnarcher]

44 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

 

 

Actually this is likely an under-estimate.  The vast majority of layouts are expanded train sets that go no-where near exhibitions.  Most of these will run a selection of stock based on what the owner likes and that is how it should be.  Occasionally one or two of these sorts of bitsa-everything layouts do get exhibited, but they aren't the layouts that draw the crowds so don't get booked.

That may well be so, but I wonder can we really know, if they don't go to exhibitions, and don't appear on here much (or appear in magazines perhaps, though I don't see all of those)?

If it is so, it is (as you say) as it should be -  let everyone do what pleases them.

On a personal note though, I am a litlle bemused to think that such a large proportion of a hobby I've had some (although intermittent) connection with for about 60 years is actually a form of activity that hardly interests me at all.

Edited July 16, 2019 by johnarcher

[Reorte]

41 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

 

The East Lancs is a superb railway and a credit to all concerned.  However, am I fooled that this is the 1980s?  No; the locos shouldn't have the single headlights but the main reason is ITS ALL TOO CLEAN!  I remember coming back from travelling on trains in the blue/grey era and always needed to wash my hands immediately.

 

For various reasons I usually look at preserved railways to give some impression of an era rather than be a finescale 1:1 model of one. It simply wouldn't be possible, for all sorts of reasons, and in some ways not desirable (it's good that they look after their stock!)

 

When it comes to modelling one, if someone wants to use it to throw on a locomotive that was never preserved, well, I don't see that as fundamentally different to a detailed, thoroughly researched, spot on in every detail model of a location which just never happened to exist.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Reorte

[brianusa]

Sometimes our layouts represent a preserved line as it is.  Mine has an abundance of rolling stock in various condition from any railway running with any locomotive or taking up siding space.  The loco shed area is invariably full as are some passing sidings.  Building are a mixture but it all comes together, maybe because its all tinplate trains; wouldn't do for the serious modeller who might have concerns 

     Brian.

[Zomboid]

13 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Hello Jason, you've taken the trouble to post a photo, and I'll try my very best to respond. Preserved railway? Yes. Diesels? yes. Gent on crutches? possibly. Monkey on the right shoulder behind the gent? Errrr.  Gaily lit station bulbs? Possibly. Gaggle of orange on the top of platform 1? Parts of this are quite right, but parts of this are quite wrong, In my tiny world, this is the reason why I don't model preserved railways....

The thing is they photo is exactly right on every sense. It happened. Not in 1980something, but it's still a part of railway history.

Just like FFS in LNER with blinkers. It's not wrong, because it actually happened.

[Legend]

Hmmm why not popular?

 

For me I think there are two aspects

 

No reason for freight services, very limited freight workings

 

Combination of eras , so while OK on preserved line , would never have happened in real life, for instance BR Blue diesels hauling Crimson and Cream stock . I just find this jarring .

 

[tomparryharry]

51 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

The thing is they photo is exactly right on every sense. It happened. Not in 1980something, but it's still a part of railway history.

Just like FFS in LNER with blinkers. It's not wrong, because it actually happened.

 

Oh No! not the Flying Jockstrap! Truth to tell, it's the one locomotive I have absolutely no interest in. The one & only bit about FS I like is the smoke deflectors, because it showed someone actually tried to improve the locomotives' performance. 

 

This being an open forum, I'll hold myself up to ridicule on the subject. Hopefully I've explained why modelling preserved railways isn't for me, and I will defend each & every one their right to model whatever they choose.

 

Even LNER-based pacifics.....

[johnarcher]

39 minutes ago, Legend said:

Hmmm why not popular?

 

For me I think there are two aspects

 

No reason for freight services, very limited freight workings

 

Combination of eras , so while OK on preserved line , would never have happened in real life, for instance BR Blue diesels hauling Crimson and Cream stock . I just find this jarring .

 

For me, I think the lack of freight is part of a bigger point. The 'real' railways were part of the communities they served, especially when they rather than roads moved most freight and passengers, the lack of freight on preserved lines illustrates that this isn't (can't be) any longer the case. They are tourist attractions, no doubt they contribute to local economies, but don't take people to work, or off to college or the army, don't deliver Mum's new piano or the new farmer and his stock.

That's no criticism, obviously the world is different now. Preserved or not no railway can be that now, but it is part of why I find them less interesting as a model (though I applaud the efforts of those who created and run them, and have njoyed visiting some).

Also, as someone else said, too clean.

[Zomboid]

32 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Oh No! not the Flying Jockstrap! Truth to tell, it's the one locomotive I have absolutely no interest in. The one & only bit about FS I like is the smoke deflectors, because it showed someone actually tried to improve the locomotives' performance. 

 

This being an open forum, I'll hold myself up to ridicule on the subject. Hopefully I've explained why modelling preserved railways isn't for me, and I will defend each & every one their right to model whatever they choose.

 

Even LNER-based pacifics.....

I couldn't care less about the FFS either. I just disagree with the idea that something that happened in reality to a 1:1 locomotive/ railway can be "wrong". The engine that I have some small scale involvement with myself is totally "wrong" because it's a 45/1 with marker lights and a headlight at one end and split headcode boxes at the other and when it's finally back in service it'll be running on a former London underground line to a station in GER colours. Model that and you'd probably get laughed at, but it's actually going to happen.

 

Heritage railways are tourist attractions in the here and now that trade in nostalgia, but they do not actually operate in the past.

 

And if someone does or doesn't want to make a miniature representation of one, that's absolutely fine by me.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, johnarcher said:

For me, I think the lack of freight is part of a bigger point. The 'real' railways were part of the communities they served, especially when they rather than roads moved most freight and passengers, the lack of freight on preserved lines illustrates that this isn't (can't be) any longer the case. They are tourist attractions, no doubt they contribute to local economies, but don't take people to work, or off to college or the army, don't deliver Mum's new piano or the new farmer and his stock.

 

I understand where you're coming from and I largely agree but you could rule out the modern railway for the same reasons, at least to a degree (which might be one of the reasons some people don't want to model it I suppose). From that perspective though a preserved railway is still however a part of the community - like any other railway it moves people around who want to pay to be moved around, even if those peoples' motives are different. Which raises the question about non-preserved railways that get a significant proportion of traffic from people who just want to travel on them. There must be some in the more scenic parts of the country.