Brian Kirby Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 Hi Everyone, Here's a blast from the past, M&L (Models and Leisure Kits) 4mm brass coach sides. These must be nearly 30 yrs old now, this pack was found under a heap of Comet parts, even the package staples were rusty. One of the sides had an accidental etched fingerprint, it could be a "Ron fingerprint"! Nowadays you can buy the later Comet version, the only difference is that the M&L had etched-in open droplights, the Comet has separate droplights, although some of the earlier Comet range has the former style. Back in the old days, etched sides were supplied flat and this applies to the M&L too, although it suits me, as i'm removing the doors. Once i've jiggled around with the bits, then i can apply the tumblehome. I've never bothered with those flashy rolling bars, i just use various formers and a suitable round surfaced tool. The sides will be built into an otherwise complete Comet model, starting with a pack of their coach ends. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted October 24, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2010 Brian.Wasn't Pete Waterman involved with M & L at some time.I'll be interested to see this build. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 24, 2010 Author Share Posted October 24, 2010 Yes, he was part of the team. Quite a few model firms sprung up from Coventry. Most of these M&L sides ended up on RTR plastic bodies (or at the back of people's cupboards), i think they eventually offered alternative parts, such as ends, but can't remember if they were etched or cast ? This coach will end up mostly Comet, i'm just making use of some old M&L sides. I always thought "Models and Leisure" was a strange trading name, which might be misconstrued ! Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 25, 2010 Author Share Posted October 25, 2010 Having fitted the Comet ends and added the steps, next comes the roof. This is cut to the required length, making sure the ends are square and removing any burrs. I also like to thin down the aluminium ends, especially when adding roof strapping, to avoid things looking too chunky. As you can see, i've scribbled pencil markings all over the place and then drilled for the cast ventilators. The blue 'T's mark the loo end for orientation. Don't use felt pens to mark the outside, or if you do, remove it before you prime and paint, otherwise it will keep showing through. Next stage is the roof strapping, alas no roof plan drawing from M&L, so i dug out the Comet drawing. A photograph didn't quite agree with the locations marked on the Comet plan, so i went with the photo, perhaps there were variations ? I don't use pre-cut tape reels, my strips are made from sliced electrical tape, which means it's cheap and plentiful, it's also handy for body strapping. If you slice the tape on thick plasticard, it will prolong the life of the blade and you can cut it to whatever width you fancy. By the way, prototype roof strapping is not always regularly spaced, it depends on the width of the various roof sections, so it can look a bit higgledy-piggledy, although less so when painted. If you trim the tape in a warm environment, beware of the tape contracting as it cools, otherwise you could end up with gaps ! Once i've nudged and teased it into position, and checked for squareness, a coat of cellulose primer will hold everything in place. Here's the roof plonked on loose for checking. The railmotor in the background is one of three i should be getting on with for somebodyelse, but they're driving me nuts, so a M&L/Comet kit provides light relief ! Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Brain, this is looking interesting! Please forgive me if this is a silly question but why did you remove the doors? Is it something to do with the half-etched droplights? Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 20, 2010 Author Share Posted November 20, 2010 Hi Everyone, Apologies to all, i started building this coach for myself, then i couldn't find the time to crack on with it. I had to go back to page 4 to resurrect the project from nearly a month ago ! Good news Chris F, the doors are back on. Here's some progress with the underframe. With all coaches, you have to remember and keep checking which end is which and make sure you're mounting the battery box on the correct side and the dynamo at the correct end. You can see one of the bogies at the top of the photo, i'm not bothering with the brakegear, although i could add it later. Neither am i using Comet's very neat built in compensation, since this is only for 'OO' and previous experience has shown that we need to fit packing washers anyway, which provides sufficient up and down play. Without the packing washers, the whole underframe sits too low on the bogies, causing the bogies to catch. Everything bar the buffers is soldered on for strength, i used to solder the buffers as well, but that job is a right pain. Apart from being careful not melt the whitemetal, it's a case of up a bit, left a bit, down a bit, solder. Still not straight, heat up, left a bit, right a bit - it's like the old Golden Shot programme, that like Comet, also came from Birmingham ! Nowadays, i just glue them in with superglue, it gives you a few seconds to check for position and if one breaks in the future, they are easier to replace. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted November 20, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2010 Quite interesting that you are building a 'bitsa' LMS coach! I'm just getting through a D1791 Period ii Composite. It was supplied by a good RMweb associate, but there were no instructions for the 5522 bits! The sides are Comet originals with formed droplights. Underframe and ends and most underframe detail is 5522 stuff. As I'm a coward and there were also no instructions I'm using Comet Bogies instead of the 5522 etchings/lost wax brass fittings and I have also used a standard Comet roof as the one supplied just didn't have enough 'ridge' at the cantrail position. The roof vents are MAJ and the toilet vents are Comet! The one thing I found (am finding) really difficult without instructions is the 5522 scissors gangway fittings; they will end up as a bit of a 'cobble'. The 'supplier' of the parts has given me a cunning tip for the use of black ribbon as the 'bellows' in the gangway connector. The Comet information suggest how to represent the 'glass' compartment side vents. The Corridor side vent 'hoods' are quite prominent in the prototype picture in Jenkinson. I will try plasticard, however if someone knows of a supplier of suitable LMS vents that would be very useful. I suppose I should trawl through Coachman's LMS builds Blog, however I'm too lazy to do that unless it's absolutely essential! Oh yes, I may post a pic later, however I'm not that brave just now as the thing looks a bit rough!B) Good looking build so far with yours by the way Brian. 36E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 20, 2010 Author Share Posted November 20, 2010 Crikey Mallard, I lost count of the contributing suppliers for your coach ! I've never built any 5522 bogies, sounds like they are designed for the P4 brigade. Any chance of piccies of said bogies, so we can gauge the level of headbanging ? Some years ago somebody brought me some gangway kits (they were either Slater's or Masokits, can't remember) to build. All i remember was, i didn't enjoy the experience and they took ages ! I'm happy using the old-fashioned card gangways, bish-bash-bosh and they are on (and working). I suppose a dummy scissor frame could be added outside ? I think plasticard is fine for door vents, as long as they are a consistent size. Black paint on the ends would make them look hollow. Not sure if Coachmann's blogs are still available, he seems to have done a Reggie Perrin . . . ? Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted November 20, 2010 Share Posted November 20, 2010 Useful tips Brian that I might well adopt - insulating tape roof banding, ride height washers and thinning down the aluminium roof being three I'd been considering the need for. Mallard, I would be keen to see your bitsa - I've just taken a similar delivery pencilled in to hit my beginner's workbench mid December... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted November 21, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 21, 2010 Useful tips Brian that I might well adopt - insulating tape roof banding, ride height washers and thinning down the aluminium roof being three I'd been considering the need for. Mallard, I would be keen to see your bitsa - I've just taken a similar delivery pencilled in to hit my beginner's workbench mid December... OK there follows some pics and the camera is SO unkind! End 'B' 5522 etches; (alarm gear looking very alarmed by that top step!!) End 'A' 5522 etches 5522 bogie etches and LW castings etc. (Used Comet bogies as I didn't dare do these without instructions!) NO idea what the press studs are for:unsureclear: Comet Compartmenet side; note nice little dropped droplight. (Comet corridor side not shown) 5522 scissor gangway bits; no idea if correct or how they should fit (yet). This is where the black ribbon will feature! Underparts: 5522 as per Comet plan with added wm. tank which is from a SR kit (no idea where it should be placed, if anywhere); Comet bogies awaiting wm sides when Geoff has recovered from Warley: Go on, have a laugh, but this is only the second LMS coach I've ever had a go at and with no instructions:blink: (The first, which was a part build Comet LMS D1697 Kitchen Car, might appear on here one day). Bit of filler and some more detail bits + a good drench in Halfords Primer and it'll look O.K. honest. 36E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted November 21, 2010 Share Posted November 21, 2010 5522 bogie etches and LW castings etc. (Used Comet bogies as I didn't dare do these without instructions!) NO idea what the press studs are for:unsureclear: Comet Compartmenet side; note nice little dropped droplight. (Comet corridor side not shown) Press studs are normally for attaching the bogie to the body, MJT use this method for their compensated bogies as well. Warning though, most of them are too stiff as supplied and need easing a bit to do curves! Those bogies look rigid/compensated so not a modern P4 design especially though the lost wax castings look rather nice and i'll have to get some of those to go with a new etched inner when I rebogie some Hornby stock (not required but I like sprung bogies in P4). I have some of these old MSL sides though I think mine were for some diagrams of mk1 that probably wont be used now. I'm still confused about the doors though, have you fitted different ones or moved the existing ones somehow? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 21, 2010 Author Share Posted November 21, 2010 I think Mallard's coach is going to look splendid, and he's fitted proper alarm gear. I'm just an old cheapskate and use a double layer of sticky tape for mine ! Didn't 5522 kits come in a big flat green box ? You thought you were opening a nice box of chocolates, and it turned out to be a coach kit. Those 5522 bogies look mildly serious, i used to do P4 for years, but found everything took forever, especially if modelling long trains and the main line, so i regressed to 'OO' (sorry, hangs head in shame ). Another problem with kit bogies, can be the weight, especially if marshalling long trains, things can get very heavy. For this reason i'm quite happy to mix kit bogies with RTR ones, where appropriate. Does anyone find using Comet ends, the body comes out slightly fat, with little or no rebate under the guttering of their roof ? Having found this, i now thin down the ends slightly, before assembly. Back to the grindstone. Cheers, Brian. P.S. I'm officially launching a Come Back Larry (Coachmann) campaign. If you approve, toot your horn when you go past. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted November 21, 2010 Share Posted November 21, 2010 I'm officially launching a Come Back Larry (Coachmann) campaign. If you approve, toot your horn when you go past. Toot toot! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted November 21, 2010 Share Posted November 21, 2010 You can do better than Mark - how about La Cucaracha....... I'll get my coat. Toot toot.... Lovely coaches BTW Brian! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 21, 2010 Author Share Posted November 21, 2010 Lovely coaches BTW Brian! The smart looking coach was Mallard's ! My coach was the funny looking one with the doors missing. Cheers, Brian. Toot, toot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted November 21, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 21, 2010 The smart looking coach was Mallard's ! My coach was the funny looking one with the doors missing. Cheers, Brian. Toot, toot. Toot, parp, honk, hoot, claxon etc. If anyone is confused, the sides on my bag of **** are ancient Comet (and I mean ORIGINAL) and so the doors are as received!! Brian has been bold and hacked his off his MSL (?) sides (doors that is) and then replaced them - cunning stuff. I have to admit that I'm having a right laugh with this set of stuff. I keep on having to ask the 'supplier' why bits seem to be missing (which, of course, they are not!). He then points out to me that bit so and so on the etch is something you have to spend hours forming into some vital part! I suspect Coach (parp, parp) discovered all this sort of thing yonks ago and uses his bits or other sensible bits from wherever. Craig, thanks for the info re. the studs; now I have some instructions where this is illustrated I might just have a go at making up these. I can see why Comet KISS; their motto has always been ease of build but still looking OK! Might try something other than studs for attachment though! Brian, I hadn't really noticed the Comet end situation using their roof extrusion. However, I do think taking a little off the end 'edges' as you mention could be an idea that I'll try on another build to see the result. My experience of seeing Comet products in the raw, finished by a class builder/painter, is that they look the part. My experience of building Comet kits is that they are made to go together as easily as possible and they do! OK so sometimes there is a generic 'flavour' and the occasional accuracy glitch but at least the instructions in their 'Building Coaches the Comet Way' booklet allow for one being inexperienced. The kits are also very competitively priced at around £40 and what a range. (I want to get one of the new Mk1 Bullion Cars and do it in Maroon). Incidentally I've also built a Fozard LNER Suburban Composite Lav recently and that was pretty good too. I'd recommend his kits to LNER/NER folks; they are smashing. Slightly different design but LOVELY etches, however once the MJT fittings, wheels etc. are added to the etchings cost they run in at about £70. However, at this price for a kit, Fozzy does a VERY reasonably priced RTR build. Finally Brian, I appreciate your comments re the coach - cheers. Toot, toot! (Chime whistle, LMS hooter etc) 36E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Royal Posted November 21, 2010 Share Posted November 21, 2010 If you trim the tape in a warm environment, beware of the tape contracting as it cools, otherwise you could end up with gaps ! Once i've nudged and teased it into position, and checked for squareness, a coat of cellulose primer will hold everything in place. Here's the roof plonked on loose for checking. The railmotor in the background is one of three i should be getting on with for somebodyelse, but they're driving me nuts, so a M&L/Comet kit provides light relief ! Cheers, Brian. Hi Brian, Great build, informative text. I've heard of this roof strapping technique before, clearly it sounds like you have done this before with other coaching stock. I wondered if it stood the test of time? Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 21, 2010 Author Share Posted November 21, 2010 Hi Mark, Well i haven't left them outside in all weathers , but it seems to work! As Coachmann said, when he was using his pre-cut tape reels, you can add a minute daub of superglue to the ends, just in case there's any peeling (then wipe off any excess with tissue). Because i'm tight-fisted, i'm using sliced up electrical tape. That way you can cut it to whatever width you fancy, and it's dirt cheap. In addition, it pretty handy for doing those londitudinal curved rainstrips, like on GW or LNER coaches, the tape can be nudged into the perfect position. I also use it for loco boiler bands. Being a non-smoker, i've never employed the old "fag paper" technique ! Cheers, Brian (Toot, toot) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iak Posted November 21, 2010 Share Posted November 21, 2010 VERY tasty... [loud toot!] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted November 22, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2010 Monday morning.....TOOT! 36E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted November 22, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUkXMiMCA20&feature=related Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted November 22, 2010 Share Posted November 22, 2010 Some top work there. The gangway doors look good, are they a seperate etching or part of the end etch? Cheers. Sean. Erm..... Honk Honk..... B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted November 22, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2010 Some top work there. The gangway doors look good, are they a seperate etching or part of the end etch? Cheers. Sean.Erm..... Honk Honk..... B) Parp, Parp! OK Penguin, if you be making reference to my heap then the doors are part of the inner end etch of the 5522 parts. The 5522 ends are a clever (if a little fiddley) two part job. The attached is a (Australian version) copy of some of the 5522 instructions ; it shows the end construction. 36E 5522.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Pulham Posted November 22, 2010 Share Posted November 22, 2010 Parp, Parp! The attached is a (Australian version) copy of some of the 5522 instructions. 36E Nice Phil, I can't wait to tell the wife!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted November 22, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2010 Interesting use of electrical tape for the roof joints. Many Bulleid Southern coaches had long strips added to the coach sides to reinforce the butt welds and I have been wondering how best to add these.... TOOT TOOT, come back Larry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.