RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted March 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2011 The Class 67's were built under sub-contract for GM in Spain and they were not exactly brilliant from the get go. The sad reality (or cold hard facts) is that US built locos just work straight out of the box (or off the ship) only one or two of all the Class 66's delivered was not able to be simply fuelled up dockside and driven away. The 70's are a bit of an exception as they are a brand new design rather than a developed one like the 66's and 59's which can trace their ancestry back to the SD9's in the 1950's. Pretty much anything built in the UK since post Class 58 has invariably been littered with faults, shoddily built, taken years beyond the original delivery date to actually get anywhere near the reliability rates of the 66's et-al and basically have been unmerchantable crap costing way more to sort out than if BR and its successors had gone to GM in the first place. If common sense rather than political dogma had got in the way, there would have been no Class 60, just a Class 59 derivative probably as a compromise assembled from US shipped CKD kits in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2011 Why can't we build GE locos in the UK for UK an European Customers I can understand Turkey for North African and Middle East Customers but the UK is in Europe. Pete Probably the same reason why Fender also build guitars in Mexico - cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted March 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2011 Probably because after the experience of Thrall any US railway equipment builder would be very wary of moving to the UK. This would not stop an agreement with Brush to build or assemble locos here. Wishfull thinking on my part though. Geoff. What was the experience of Thrall? I know they built hundreds of wagons (BRA, BYA, HTA etc) for EWS at York, then (seemingly suddenly) closed down, but I don't know the background. cheers Ben A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted March 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2011 If common sense rather than political dogma had got in the way, there would have been no Class 60, just a Class 59 derivative probably as a compromise assembled from US shipped CKD kits in the UK. The 60 was procured against a specification based upon the 59. IIRC, one of the bidders was indeed a UK kit-built 59. Although there were some politics involved in the 60's being British designed and built, the principle reason was "whole-life" cost, of which one of the principle elements is fuel - the 60's are exceedingly fuel efficient for a big diesel. Way better than 59's and from what I've heard, also 66's. I believe the 70's have surpassed the 60 in fuel efficiency. Cheers, Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted March 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2011 By the same token now many years later, which class is 90% stored with many demics and which slightly older class is still 100% (bar one exported to Germany) and still going strong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted March 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2011 By the same token now many years later, which class is 90% stored with many demics and which slightly older class is still 100% (bar one exported to Germany) and still going strong? That wasn't the point of my post. However, if the 60's had been taken care of in the same way as the 59's, then maybe it would be a different story. The 59's have pretty much had a limited geographical area of operation with dedicated crews and maintenance facilities and not subject to the "common-user, so who cares" attitude to the 60's. The 60's can't be that bad, if DBS are resurrecting a few more. Enough of the politics - back to the 70's. My 70006 performed faultlessly today, along with my three 60's. The two 66's were a little "niggly"! Cheers, Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Why can't we build GE locos in the UK for UK an European Customers I can understand Turkey for North African and Middle East Customers but the UK is in Europe. Pete Well Pete, I suppose it's because we (if you mean the UK?) no longer have loco manufacturing capacity. AFAIK the last loco builder, Brush, lost it's manufacturing capacity some time ago and can now only handle heavy re-furbs and overhauls. They're not even "we" either. Brush was sold to American firm Wabtec, only last week. ......I believe the 70's have surpassed the 60 in fuel efficiency. I should hope so for Freightliners and GM's sake. The 70 was bought largely on its promised fuel economy and reduced emissions. However, if the 60's had been taken care of in the same way as the 59's, then maybe it would be a different story..... Well they would have required an awful lot more "care" than the 59 would ever need. 60's are over complex, less reliable and consequently more expensive to operate than the 59, or 66 come to that. This is precisely the reason that EWS (now DBS) declined from spending too much money on them. Now when it suits them, they are prepared to carry out the overhaul & refurb for a small sub-fleet, but that's just good business from the companies point of view. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted March 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2011 So, the next batch of Class 70 locos will be coming from "the east" and not "the west". . http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/tuelomsas-rolls-out-turkish-powerhaul.html . Brian R Would the 70's have looked better like this? Euro PowerHaul Cheers, Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted March 12, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 12, 2011 a couple of pics from me again, taken today at the crewe heritage centre, 70011 on display (just down from 70013 "oliver cromwell" strangely enough), it was there along with a freightliner 66 for a charity event, dominic wanted in on the picture too!! possibly something that may not be seen again for a while, class 70 and an 03!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 We might have been crying less if Siemens had supplied some of the Eurorunner's in UK spec. These seem to be quite popular, look good and work. Whilst in Germany I wondered if there might be a future for 'express' goods services that operate at much higher speeds than traditionally. Would work for long haul but there wouldn't be much gain for short haul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I have been told that 70012 will be moved from Newport to Liverpool by road this week, in preparation for return to America....and a new 70012 is on its way by sea to Liverpool, along with team mates 70013 to 70016. Anyone confirm this information. Bob Edit.........since posting the above info.....it would appear to be complete B.....x !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Harvey Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Bob I have had the same told to me also No: 12 is to be replaced by No: 30 weather that part is true or not I don't know. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ews60002 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I heard a different story that the 70012 was going back to the USA and be stripped down for any useful parts (If any) then in the next batch of loco's would be 70013, 014 015 016 017, 018, 019 and 020. 70012 would not be replaced at the moment till the initial order of 30 loco's was forfilled, once the order was completed 70012 will be replaced by 70031. now whever this happens is another matter as we all know anything can and does happen in the railways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I also heard that one of the next batch will be one assembled in Turkey .???? A so called demonstrator. Any truth in that.? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I have taken the clip below from an email on the topic of 70012, I beleive from someone close to the ground. Now to 70012. This loco is now a GE asset, and not Freightliner’s. It will be returned to the Erie plant and used for testing, research and development purposes. A move was afoot at one stage..........the Alleylys low loader that the loco now resides on is NOT that onto which it was unloaded from “Beluga Endurance†back in January. The latter was unroadworthy, which is why Alleylys were not too concerned about it being out of circulation for some time. 70012 has since been transferred to another Alleylys low loader, and actually faces the other way round now, with the ‘banana’ end toward where the tractor unit will attach. However, it ain’t going anywhere! Both Alleylys and Newport Docks are owed money, the latter for demurrage, and monies have not been paid because of the financial investigation and restructuring of Beluga Shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Country Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I also heard that one of the next batch will be one assembled in Turkey .???? A so called demonstrator. Any truth in that.? Bob Tulomsas in Turkey has already assembled at least one PowerHaul demonstrator under license from GE, and they will be ready to build production locos soon. My understanding was that Tulomsas would assemble PowerHauls for the Middle East and Europe, so it's feasible that they could build future batches of 70s of Freightliner (or other UK customers) although as far as I know Erie will complete the current order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted June 19, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2011 I also heard that one of the next batch will be one assembled in Turkey .???? A so called demonstrator. Any truth in that.? Bob See post#675 on previous page......... Cheers, Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I have taken the clip below from an email on the topic of 70012, I beleive from someone close to the ground. Now to 70012. This loco is now a GE asset, and not Freightliner’s. It will be returned to the Erie plant and used for testing, research and development purposes. A move was afoot at one stage..........the Alleylys low loader that the loco now resides on is NOT that onto which it was unloaded from “Beluga Endurance†back in January. The latter was unroadworthy, which is why Alleylys were not too concerned about it being out of circulation for some time. 70012 has since been transferred to another Alleylys low loader, and actually faces the other way round now, with the ‘banana’ end toward where the tractor unit will attach. However, it ain’t going anywhere! Both Alleylys and Newport Docks are owed money, the latter for demurrage, and monies have not been paid because of the financial investigation and restructuring of Beluga Shipping. And you believe all that with all the spelling mistakes. OK there from the USA but come on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 And you believe all that with all the spelling mistakes. OK there from the USA but come on? Pot, Kettle....Black 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Pot, Kettle....Black Whit, (I was going to say sarcasm but I can't spell it) or MRC + pub take your pick OzzyO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpleymodeller Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The 70s would not have needed to be built if the trains they mainly haul,bulk coal MGRs, wasnt lost by EWS to Freightliner Heavy Haul over the past 10 years. If more of Freightliners Heavy Haul work was in the hands of EWS(DB Schenker) then 60s would be used and so the 70s would not be required. For the container trains they haul,wouldnt a new and far more powerful electric loco design been a more environmentally freindly option than these type 5 diesels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsOatcake Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The 70s would not have needed to be built if the trains they mainly haul,bulk coal MGRs, wasnt lost by EWS to Freightliner Heavy Haul over the past 10 years. If more of Freightliners Heavy Haul work was in the hands of EWS(DB Schenker) then 60s would be used and so the 70s would not be required. For the container trains they haul,wouldnt a new and far more powerful electric loco design been a more environmentally freindly option than these type 5 diesels? That is what happens in a free market. those that provide the cheapest and best contract offers usually get the contracts. regardless of whether they have tugs as motive power or not. The Tugs are doomed to fade away into history as EWS loose more and more contracts. Sad state of affairs.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted June 21, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 21, 2011 For the container trains they haul,wouldnt a new and far more powerful electric loco design been a more environmentally freindly option than these type 5 diesels? Seeing as the Felixstowe branch, the cross country route via Peterborough and many other terminals built over the past 10 years or so lack overhead wires, not to mention the modern aversion to loco changes en route, I fail to see how a new batch of electric locos would have prented freightliner from needing the class 70s (although I take your point about perhaps not needing as many). Lets face it untill electrification moves beyond a couple of main lines (with connections between them only avaleable at the extrematies) and forms a real network, Diesel traction will reign suprime for freight for many years to come. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 21, 2011 For the container trains they haul,wouldnt a new and far more powerful electric loco design been a more environmentally freindly option than these type 5 diesels? Freightliner have what amounts to an hourly interval service (on paper at least - they don't use all the paths) from Southampton to the Midlands - the enviromentally capable machine to do that would be a 25KV ac overhead/750v dc 3rd rail electro-diesel with an installed diesel hp of around 3,000 (give or take a few hundred hp) and it would probably cost about 3 times what a Class 70 costs assuming it could actually be built. Somehow I don't think the idea will catch on (and I suspect that even a few more Class 92s would probably be regarded as not particularly environmentally friendly due to their electromagnetic signature). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpleymodeller Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Well diesels may be able to be manufactured now to low fuel consumption designs but what happens when all the oil runs out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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