coachmann Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I worked on BR Passenger Parcels (Manchester Victoria depot) throughout most of 1959 and I suspect someone would have been shot at dawn if our Bedfords and Dennis vans had been allowed out on the road in that condition, even allowing for Salford slush and salt.. Even the freight side had cleaner Scammels. The crimson and cream was lighter although I seem to recall the former was darker than on B&C coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trains12 Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Great, so how do I access it? John E Hi John As its a private collection and not open to public as such do not have a web site for it all. People usually contact me and make arrangements to call and see us. Attached is a photo. taken a couple of years ago, a lot more stuff acquired since then. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leander Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 But which one? I think it more likely that Carlisle would have one spare, not sure where the loco for the Morecombe Prom would come from!! any thoughts? Could the Morecambe be a portion of a combined Morecambe -Bradford/Leeds train that detached the Bradford coaches at Skipton? If so, it might have been worked by the 2-6-4T that worked the early morning workers' train. I think it would have been a Class 4 duty as I've seen photos of big Ivatt moguls on it too. The Jubilees worked the Carlisle parcels of course, on occasions, as did Black 5s, Brits, Clans or anything else that Kingmoor had to hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Could the Morecambe be a portion of a combined Morecambe -Bradford/Leeds train that detached the Bradford coaches at Skipton? If so, it might have been worked by the 2-6-4T that worked the early morning workers' train. I think it would have been a Class 4 duty as I've seen photos of big Ivatt moguls on it too. The Jubilees worked the Carlisle parcels of course, on occasions, as did Black 5s, Brits, Clans or anything else that Kingmoor had to hand. It would appear that by 62 only the down 5.10pm Morecombe Prom combined with the 4.55pm Leeds at Skipton. The up trains seem to work through. Alberta is not behaving herself at the moment so the Carlisle will remain a Black five turn for the time being. I might try the Stanier tank on the Morecombe Prom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Some time ago I said that I was trying to create a signal box diagram so that it would be easier to describe signals etc.. well here it is. (edited in accordance with subsequent posts, many thanks) The un-numbered signals top right on the far side of Bradfield tunnel are not modelled but represent what I think should be there. It all helps create the illusion! Also a couple of pics of the latest signals now installed and one at least is operating. A view from inside Bradfield tunnel giving a drivers eye view of signal 20. This has a representation of a five aspect stencil indicator. The disc is powered by a servo but the stencils are only dummies. The signal controls backing down moves from the up main into the station, mainly for light engines but some shunting moves too. The Dummy Dummy!! Signal 31 is a yellow ground disc controlling exit from the carriage sidings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westerner Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Brilliant. As I've said before cn't wait to see it at Nottingham. Its a little different from Potterbourne a bucolic GWR BLT which I will be helping operate at Nottingham. edited for spelling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2012 Even the non-operating bits are rather good! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Hi John Just going back a moment to the post about couplings, what do you use on the ends of DMU's where you want to run more than one coupled in multiple soetimes? Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2012 Some time ago I said that I was trying to create a signal box diagram so that it would be easier to describe signals etc.. well here it is. The un-numbered signals top right on the far side of Bradfield tunnel are not modelled but represent what I think should be there, likewise the "Limit Of Shunt" board. It all helps create the illusion! A view from inside Bradfield tunnel giving a drivers eye view of signal 20. This has a representation of a five aspect stencil indicator. The disc is powered by a servo but the stencils are only dummies. The signal controls backing down moves from the up main into the station, mainly for light engines but some shunting moves too. The Dummy Dummy!! Signal 31 is a permissive ground disc controlling exit from the carriage sidings. Excellent stuff John - one or two slip-ups with terminology but the kit itself is spot on for what it is supposed to be doing and where it is supposed to be (except for the LoS board which would apply to the incoming line and should therefore be next to it instead of where you have put it, also you have no signals that can read to it so technically there is no need for it). The yellow disc is not referred to as 'permissive' as that term applies to something totally different on the big railway (just so that other folk understand it is a signal which can be passed at danger when the points to which it applies are set towards a direction to which the signal does not apply when off - which at Bradfield means it can be passed at danger when No.14 points stand normal and are set towards No 4 CS but it cannot be passed at danger when no. 14 points stand reverse and are set towards No.5 CS). And the stencil indicator (which looks just right to me) on signal 20 would not be described as having 5 'aspects' but would be capable of showing 5 different indications. I will now put the nit safely back in its cage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 By gum, that shot of a Stanier 2-6-4T in the tunnel mouth looks extraordinarrily good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Am I confused, but on your signal diagram, can I spot TWO turnouts with the number 8? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Hi John Just going back a moment to the post about couplings, what do you use on the ends of DMU's where you want to run more than one coupled in multiple soetimes? Ian The simple answer is that I don't. However, the NEM pockets are still there so I would probably slip in some of the Hornby type that I use between coaches in the fixed rakes. John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Am I confused, but on your signal diagram, can I spot TWO turnouts with the number 8? You certainly can, full marks for observation. The one out of CS5 should be 15, many thanks for pointing that out, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 - one or two slip-ups with terminology.... The yellow disc is not referred to as 'permissive' as that term applies to something totally different on the big railway (just so that other folk understand it is a signal which can be passed at danger when the points to which it applies are set towards a direction to which the signal does not apply when off - which at Bradfield means it can be passed at danger when No.14 points stand normal and are set towards No 4 CS but it cannot be passed at danger when no. 14 points stand reverse and are set towards No.5 CS). And the stencil indicator (which looks just right to me) on signal 20 would not be described as having 5 'aspects' but would be capable of showing 5 different indications. I will now put the nit safely back in its cage. Many thanks again Mike, it's the only way we learn if someone is prepared to explain where we are going wrong. Diagram duly amended. What is a yellow disc called and what is a permissive signal?? John E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2012 What is a yellow disc called and what is a permissive signal?? A yellow disc ! and block working is permissive not signals, some signals will give an indication of permissive working but that's not the same thing, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2012 Many thanks again Mike, it's the only way we learn if someone is prepared to explain where we are going wrong. Diagram duly amended. What is a yellow disc called and what is a permissive signal?? John E A yellow disc is called a 'yellow disc' or more correctly 'a yellow arm disc' or even more pedantically ' a yellow arm disc shunting signal'. Permissive working is a form of signalling, i.e the way in which a section of line is operated and not does apply to a type of signal except in that a signal might be called (unofficially) 'permissive' if it controls the entrance to a permissive section. The normal principle of British operation is based on the Absolute Block system and that is also enforced between successive stop signals at all signalboxes. A relaxation of this principle is called Permissive Block and as the name implies it can allow more than one train in a signal section. Your (offscene) signals imply that Permissive working applies in Platforms 2 & 3 at Bradfield and indeed you have split those platforms into 'A' & 'B' - if the platform is already occupied the second train to arrive will be brought to a stand at the Home Signal and the small subsidiary arm below the big arm will be cleared to admit the train towards and into the occupied platform. (so you got the non-modelled Home Signal right as well ). Hope that helps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 So what are dollies? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Not being a signalling expert, but wouldn't the carriage sdgs be numbered the other way round; ie with #1 nearest the mainline. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb900f Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 So what are dollies? Larry Red/ Yellow ground disc shunting signals, well in Sth Yorks/ Derbys at least. But in other areas around the network I believe they are referred to as "tommy dodds" , "dummies" and other various names. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2012 Not being a signalling expert, but wouldn't the carriage sdgs be numbered the other way round; ie with #1 nearest the mainline. Peter Not sure why ? Points 11,12 and 13 would not be on the cabin and the sidings probably wouldn't be labelled on a real diagram, simply denoted by black lines. The diagram is not (lever) numbered correctly, I assumed it was representative rather than a true attempt at a signal box diagram. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I thought sdgs were generally numbered away from the running lines; is that not the case then Beast? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2012 I thought sdgs were generally numbered away from the running lines; is that not the case then Beast? If I answer you might be forced to agree with me twice in one day - if you think that's the case then by all means tell us why, generally sidings aren't numbered at all (as far as the signal box is concerned), except in larger yards when some control of the connections is on the box - in my experience Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I agree that sdgs aren't necessarily numbered on signal box diagrams, but sdg roads are certainly numbered in yards, carr sdgs and the like. Three examples (from different companies); Toton (LMS) - West Yard numbered away from the running lines (1-18) followed by the East Yard (19-37) Colwick (LNER) - Western and Eastern reception sdgs numbered away from running line (1-12) Bournemouth West Carr Sdgs / Traincare Depot - Roads numbered away from the former line to West station Regards, Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2012 So what are dollies? Eastern Region (most prolifically in my experience) slang for what are called 'dummies' on the real railway (and disc shunting signals' by the posh folk). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2012 Ignoring the problem with using one companies practice to illustrate anothers. generally sidings aren't numbered at all (as far as the signal box is concerned), except in larger yards when some control of the connections is on the box - in my experience I agree that sdgs aren't necessarily numbered on signal box diagrams, but sdg roads are certainly numbered in yards, carr sdgs and the like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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