Manchester Central, CLC & GN Warehouses & Castlefield Viaducts

[Ron Heggs]

Just been having thoughts about the number of chairs needed to complete the main trackwork on the layout. With approximately 85 metres of track at 200 chairs per metre, that is 17,000 chairs. At a nominal £27.50 per 500 C+L chairs that is almost £1000. As almost everything on the layout is being scratchbuilt, that is a lot of money which could be better spent on electrics and rolling stock

 

The sleepers/timbers will number about about 8,500, at 750 per sheet of 310mm x 310mm ply, that works out at approx 12 sheets. I still have 8 in stock, so the extra cost is minimal

 

I was wondering if there is a more cost effective way of making the chairs  , still sticking with ply sleepers. Will be back with some possible solutions

[woodenhead]

If you come up with some Ron Heggs style solution make sure you copyright it, you might have a new affordable solution to laying acres of handmade track.

[Horsetan]

.....approximately 85 metres of track at 200 chairs per metre, that is 17,000 chairs. At a nominal £27.50 per 500 C+L chairs that is almost £1000. ....

 

 

Slightly under 6p a chair, though....

Edited October 9, 2017 by Horsetan

[D.Platt]

Hi Ron, I've been making my own point work using C&L components but I'am very happy using the new Peco bullhead track cost £4.50 a metre,glad to see your back in action. Dennis

[jamie92208]

When I had a large O gauge fiddle yard to construct I actually costed out the different options.  C&L components was the most expensive solution, the next most expensive was all on copperclad at 2" spacings and the cheapest was copperclad soldered pointwork with peco track.  However this was for the no public part of the layout.   I stuck to C&L for the points and mainly Peco for the plain track on the public sections apart from the long stretch that has check rails which is all C&L.   I wish Ron Luck with his track assembly, some sort of jig for putting the chairs on the rail would be an advantage.  My father made one many years ago for handbuilt coarse scale O gauge.  It fastened to the bench and you just inserted the chair and then pushed the rail though.

 

Jamie

[hayfield]

Just been having thoughts about the number of chairs needed to complete the main trackwork on the layout. With approximately 85 metres of track at 200 chairs per metre, that is 17,000 chairs. At a nominal £27.50 per 500 C+L chairs that is almost £1000. As almost everything on the layout is being scratchbuilt, that is a lot of money which could be better spent on electrics and rolling stock

 

The sleepers/timbers will number about about 8,500, at 750 per sheet of 310mm x 310mm ply, that works out at approx 12 sheets. I still have 8 in stock, so the extra cost is minimal

 

I was wondering if there is a more cost effective way of making the chairs  , still sticking with ply sleepers. Will be back with some possible solutions

 

 

Ron

 

Whilst I appreciate the fact that everything is being scratch built to the highest standards there must be a time when certain compromises are worthwhile.

 

Once my railway room is finished I will be building my own version of Bodmin General, trackwork is my main interest and I try and build it to the best of my ability using the plastic components used in the Exactoscale kits but to both 00 and EM gauge standards, this allows me to use the check rail, common crossing and switch rail chairs and if building either diamond crossings or slips the appropriate chairs. As far as I am concerned the trackwork separates into 3 categories

 

First category is fully visible, the second is plain track which is obscured by structures, third catagory is odd scene

 

The first category which includes turnouts, crossings and plain track will all be hand built using separate chairs with key detail

The second category will be plain track obscured by platforms, buildings or inlaid track which will be 4 mm scale RTR flexi track

The third category will be using the cheapest method available

 

I understand those who wish to add detail which is not seen just because its there, but with any project a line must be drawn somewhere, whilst turnouts are different (in my opinion) any plain track which will be partially or fully obscured is acceptable to be built using commercially made flexitrack, both financial and time saving grounds

 

I am not too certain what Phil's attitude is to giving a discount for large bulk orders, but Peter was always open to discuss discounts on very large orders. Might be worthwhile asking for quotes on bulk packs

[Simond]

Ron

 

Once you're into the £1000-plus territory, it might well be worth considering making your own design of sprues for 3D-printing, and having silicone tools made.  The parts are then cold-cast in polyurethane.   I have done this for professional (rather than hobby) purposes, and found it to be very satisfactory, although, at 4mm, some of the sections will be thin, and this may be a limiting factor.  It would be worth talking to the specialists.  Silicone tools are good for 10-20 castings, but if your sprue had 100 chairs on it, and you could get say 5 sprues in each silicone tool, it might be worth doing.

 

These were the people whom I last worked with - no connection other than satisfied customer.

 

http://crdm.co.uk/

 

hth

Simon

[monkeysarefun]

GoFundMe or similar. You have 267 followers, works out at under 4 pounds each. I've definitely had way more than 4 pounds (or whatever that is in Australia money) worth of enjoyment from this thread, so I'd be more than  happy to chip in!

 

Additional bonus good idea -  the donors could get their names engraved on the chairs they bought, as an extra incentive! (Or maybe not)

Edited October 9, 2017 by monkeysarefun

[SHMD]

Bulk discount?

 

 

Kev.

[Buhar]

 

Slightly under 6p a chair, though....

 

.and about £11.00 a metre, just for the chairs.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

 

I suppose you could try your hand at resin casting.............

 

manna

[Enterprisingwestern]

At those sorts of C & L prices, it can't be far of worth getting one of the high quality sub £750 3D printers, then you've got one for life, probably make other projects more easily possible?

 

https://shop.prusa3d.com/en/3d-printers/59-original-prusa-i3-mk2-kit.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwpfzOBRA5EiwAU0ccN3P5AauBCOb5qJOS8SDCy5J3UWFIJnl4Ef9dcA-tzrB_eFlykaFAAxoCXmoQAvD_BwE

 

Mike.

[Simond]

Doubt the cheap ones are good enough

 

One day....

[HAB]

Ron

 

Once you're into the £1000-plus territory, it might well be worth considering making your own design of sprues for 3D-printing, and having silicone tools made. 

 

I assume you have tried this Simon so can you show us the results please?

 

I would be staggered if such a process could achieve anything like the kind of accuracy required for a chair - bearing in mind that any variation in the gap in the jaw (into which the rail fits) will either make them h*ll to fit / and/or cause the base of the chair base to bow making them a pig to stick down.  As it is, the C&L chairs suffer from the fact that the tool has worn over the years and current ones, in my experience, are no where near as accurate as they were 20-odd years ago (I have a small stock of the early ones in red plastic, still remaining). For that reason, I always use Exactoscale ones, as the inaccuracy in the C&L ones is quite enough to cause issues.

 

See this discussion:-

 

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=5241&start=125

 

Personally, if I had this many chairs to fit finding the cash would be the easy bit compared with the volume of work needed - but then, I am not Ron and if anyone can do it - he is the man!

 

(edited for spilling mistooks and to add the link)

 

Best wishes,

Edited October 12, 2017 by HAB

[Enterprisingwestern]

I assume you have tried this Simon so can you show us the results please?

 

I would be staggered if such a process could achieve anything like the kind of accuracy required for a chair - bearing in mind that any variation in the gap in the jaw (into which the rail fits) will either make them h*ll to fit / and/or cause the base of the chair base to bow making them a pig to stick down.  As it is, the C&L chairs suffer from the fact that the tool has worn over the years and current ones, in my experience, are no where near as accurate as they were 20-odd years ago (I have a small stock of the early ones in red plastic, still remaining). For that reason, I always use Exactoscale ones, as the inaccuracy in the C&L ones is quite enough to cause issues.

 

See this discussion:-

 

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=5241&start=125

 

Personally, if I had this many chairs to fit finding the cash would be the easy bit compared with the volume of work needed - but then, I am not Ron and if anyone can do it - he is the man!

 

(edited for spilling mistooks and to add the link)

 

Best wishes,

 

Accuracy doesn't come into it Howard, it's only 00 .

 

Mike.

Hat, coat and cuurently on my way to Alicante - Elche airport,,,,,quickly.

[Ron Heggs]

I found the biggest problems with C+L chairs is the amount of flash under the chair base, and the inconsistency in the opening for the rail causing problems with 'threading' on non-switch rails

 

Thickness of the C+L chair base under the rail is also a lot thinner than is the case with Exactoscale chairs which can cause vertical misalgnment if both brands of chair are used on adjacent sleepers/timbers either side of enjoined rails

[hayfield]

I found the biggest problems with C+L chairs is the amount of flash under the chair base, and the inconsistency in the opening for the rail causing problems with 'threading' on non-switch rails

 

Thickness of the C+L chair base under the rail is also a lot thinner than is the case with Exactoscale chairs which can cause vertical misalgnment if both brands of chair are used on adjacent sleepers/timbers either side of enjoined rails

 

Ron

 

I changed to Exactoscale chairs two to three years ago for this reason, the moulds are newer and crisper and now no price differential 

[Simond]

HAB

 

I haven't tried 4mm chairs, but, as I said, used the process to develop products in my professional life. When they're on sale, I'll let the cat out of the bag, but it would be unprofessional to give details st present (despite not working there any more).

 

What I can say is that the mouldings (actually castings) were around 400 mm long, 250mm wide & good enough to assemble working prototypes. The items comprised a series of recesses to fit "other things" (a bit like rails) and had a multiplicity of thin sections. I could imagine a sprue being quite similar.

 

As I said, I think it might be worth talking to the experts.

 

Then again, they might say "can't do it, Guv'"

 

Best

Simon

[hayfield]

Simon

 

I am certain 3D printing is the thing of the future, initially ordering parts from a business at competitive/affordable prices. Eventually home printing will be of acceptable quality and affordable  to all

[Enterprisingwestern]

Simon

 

I am certain 3D printing is the thing of the future, initially ordering parts from a business at competitive/affordable prices. Eventually home printing will be of acceptable quality and affordable  to all

 

I liken 3D printing to the home computer market, just look back 5/10/15 etc years.

 

Mike.

[Simond]

I'm sure you're right, and, like all technologies, there will be good & bad, and cheap & pricy.

 

The trick is getting "good enough" and "affordable" and "now". As with anything, you can choose any two.

 

I suspect (and would be delighted to be proven wrong) that what is currently affordable for home use isn't yet good enough for the levels of detail, and perhaps more importantly, smoothness, we, as modellers, want.

 

Best

Simon

[N15class]

I can see home printers when good enough being of use. But what is the on costs? Power consumption, (low I expect). Cost of the consumables? What I have seen even from the likes of shapeways, the finish is not good enough and the system is more suited to prototyping rather than mass production.

[Simond]

I agree Pete, though, that said, Alan Buttler of Modelu is getting good results.

 

Best

Simon

[N15class]

I agree but he's not churning out thousands of one item.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Give it 1/2/3/4/5 years, it will improve exponentially.

 

Mike.