Kernow Adams O2

[NHY 581]

Hi all    OK. So I will wait till later when the models are issued to comment on other faults that appear on prepros.      Bye bye   adrianbs

Good grief!

[aussiebrfan]

Hi all    OK. So I will wait till later when the models are issued to comment on other faults that appear on prepros.      Bye bye   adrianbs

 

Do us all a favour and dont!  Bye bye

[G-BOAF]

OK, if the cab has been checked and double checked, I will give them the benifit of the doubt. They have got access to much better info and expertise than I, and at this stage we have to take their word for it. My only outstanding concern is where measurement 'datums' are taken from, e.g. distance from cab cutout to roof would have to be smaller on the model if the roof is 'thicker'.

We are dealing with a pair of companies (KMRC and DJM) who are pushing the boundaries in terms of prototypes, design philosophy and 'open access' customer/enthusiast engagement throughout the production process.

Long may it continue and thanks for the reciprocated feeback through AndyY.

 

IF the numbers, measurements, or detailed drawings (or part reproductions thereof) could possibly be published that might help put the matter to bed in a scientific manner!

 

Looking forward to W24, even if I will be restricting it to hauling 'dual braked' Mk1s!!!

 

On the subject of which, could the prototype O2 theoretically haul 5 Mk1s on the relative level at 25mph? Or will I be asking too much of it?

Edited October 4, 2014 by G-BOAF

[IWCR]

The  02's  daily  hauled  150  ton  trains  up  a  prolonged  1  in  70  gradient  on  the  IOW.

5  mk1s  at  25  mph  on  the  level  yes,  easily.

Problems  would  be  adhesion  in  the  wet  and  water  capacity  if  over  any  real  distance.

 

Pete

[G-BOAF]

I  can  confirm  that  the  preserved  O2  retains  the  original  cab,  this  has  not  been  altered  or  rebuilt  during  preservation.

Indeed  LSWR  paint  has  been  found  on  parts  of  the  exterior  during  work.

Kernow  also  have  a  General  Arrangement   drawing  copied  from  the  original  LSWR  drawing.

I  suspect  perceived  mismatches  with  the  model  are  due  to  the  roof  edge  thickness  which  likely  has  to  be  overscale  for  manufacuring   practicalities,  (The  vertical  lip  would  only  be  around  0.5mm  to  include  roof  thickness  and  angle  iron  edge).

On  a  painted  model  this  area  is  black,  both  roof  and  cab  side  above  any  lining,  this  will  reduce  the  visibility  of  any  slight  discrepancy.  

 

Pete

If the roof on the model is over-scale thickness (which understandably it is), the gap between the roof and cab cutout should appear to be LESS not MORE than the prototype...!

[Ozexpatriate]

Has anyone counted spokes?

 

Some manufacturers don't get that right all the time.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[G-BOAF]

Has anyone counted spokes?

 

Some manufacturers don't get that right all the time.

bogie wheels 9 spokes (prototype 9)

driving wheels 16 spokes (prototype 16)

 

you were being ironic yes?

[Rob F]

Do us all a favour and dont!  Bye bye

I can see absolutely no merit in a post such as this, it is rude and ill mannered and yet it does not seem to bring down the wrath of the admins. It seems to me that we are in danger of becoming a forum where accuracy is frowned upon and knowledge is something to be sneered at. Adrian seems to have vast experience and he is willing to share it with us and for that I am grateful. OK, his tone may not be to everyone's taste but I believe his motives are entirely sincere and all he wants to achieve are the most accurate possible models for all us all to enjoy. If you don't like his posts, don't read them, but the forum as a whole would be a much poorer place if he were to be driven away. 

 

Any number of frothing "isn't it wonderful, I'll buy 10" or "We've never had it so good" posts are allowed but as soon as someone dares to stick their head above the parapet and question whether something we are being offered is as good as it could be then the flak starts to fly. We have already lost modellers of the calibre of Jim S-W from this forum and if we are not very careful we are going to evolve into a discussion group that bangs on about how wonderful everything is with little or no critical appraisal of the products that are actually on the market. That is the road that most of the published magazines seem to be heading down and it would be a very great shame if RMWEB were to go the same way.

 

This will possibly be my last post, through no choice of my own. You will see on the left that my status is "Moderated". From what I can remember, this was because I asked a question that the admin team did not want to be asked and I agreed or disagreed with a number of posts that it was felt I should not have done. I have never been rude or discourteous to any other forum member which, to my mind, is a far greater offence.

 

ROB

 

PS I should add that I have never met or had contact with adrianbs or jim s-w but I hugely value (or valued) their contributions.

[Vistisen]

Has anyone else spotted that it seems to be about 2.8 mm too little distance between the wheels? good job though as it would not fit on my track otherwise, there seems to me to be a problem with the proportions in the things that upset people about proportions.

[iowcr3429]

We all seem to be missing a point here, I have looked at buying a Wills/Finecraft O2 for about 20 years now but given my modelling skills in metal modelling and painting I have been putting it off. On hearing that a RTR model was being produced I was over the moon but any model produced by Kernow will be many times better than what  I could build at the moment faults and all.

 

The Hornby 4 vep had its faults but if they had not produced it we would still be hacking up mk1 coach bodies and grafting on ends to get something half way close.

 

While manufactures are willing to fund new RTR models and put the CAD drawings on this site to try and get them as close as possible we only have to look back 20- 30 years to see how much better our hobby is today in the quality of the models produced.

 

Colin

[Arthur]

There is a difference between;

 

Well intentioned, constructive criticism, which either helps a manufacturer produce a better model, or which enables the modeller to make an educated choice of purchase.

 

And

 

banging on ad nauseum about it.

[Brinkly]

While manufactures are willing to fund new RTR models and put the CAD drawings on this site to try and get them as close as possible we only have to look back 20- 30 years to see how much better our hobby is today in the quality of the models produced.

 

Absolutely Colin. I would rather have one with slight faults, than not one at all. I certainly don't relish the thought of building either a SE Finecast, or the Falcon O2 and looking at the production photos the Kernow one looks, to my eye, better than the build-it-yourself option anyway.

 

Granted a lovely modern etched nickel silver kit from the likes of Mitchell or Finney would be lovely, but it isn't going to happen. Compromise is the order of the day.

 

Regards,

 

Nick.

[Ozexpatriate]

bogie wheels 9 spokes (prototype 9)

driving wheels 16 spokes (prototype 16)

 

you were being ironic yes?

Yes, and hoping/assuming that the numbers were in fact correct.

 

But it never hurts to double check!

Edited October 7, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[Ozexpatriate]

It seems to me that we are in danger of becoming a forum where accuracy is frowned upon and knowledge is something to be sneered at.

As one who has very little in the way of knowledge of British railways to offer, I don't see that at all. To my benefit I find the opposite to be true.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[G-BOAF]

There are compromises in dimensions and details (e.g. OO gauge wheels, limits to tooling variants) and faults caused generated by a range of causes be they assumptions by the CAD designer, oversights by the commissioner and other experts....

 

IOWCR3429 I disagreed with your 4-VEP comment - OK we may still be hacking up Mk1s, or Bachmann might have produced/be looking to produce a VEP. The fact is that with Hornby's sub-par attempt the market suchas it is has been cornered and it is UNLIKELY that another manufacturer will have a go. OK there are instances when this is not true, especially with the Western.

The BR8P is another such example where a better job could have been done by someone else.

 

The O2 will be a very good model, don't get me wrong, just potentially be let down in a few areas....

[Andy Y]

 

 

This will possibly be my last post, through no choice of my own. You will see on the left that my status is "Moderated". From what I can remember, this was because I asked a question that the admin team did not want to be asked and I agreed or disagreed with a number of posts that it was felt I should not have done. I have never been rude or discourteous to any other forum member which, to my mind, is a far greater offence.

 

 

I am happy to refresh your memory in that you were questioning why certain posts (in a topic 13 months ago) had been removed and you were advised this was for legal consideration. You seemed to disagree that any should have been deleted but that isn't your call to make. We have already covered the ground about what constitutes fair criticism so it wasn't really necessary to bring it up again within this topic. I ended our last conversation with the thought that I had no wish to be dragged into your semantics but once you've made an accusation in public which would suit some people and agendas that it's only fair to correct that misrepresentation.

[Ian Hargrave]

Irresistible force meets immovable object.....yes,we all desire accuracy,who does not? The logical conclusion from reading some of the frankly obsessive posts above is that if such is desirable for some,then they have to scratch build it for themselves.It is doubtful that any kit exists which would satisfy.

Kernow's pedigree and credentials are impeccable.No retailer communicates better with its clientele than they do. They are in business to make,it is hoped,a healthy living. They are enthusiasts too and theirs is a labour of love.The development of a product at long range/ arms length must be incredibly difficult,notwithstanding 21st C cyberspace communications added to which the workforce in China is undergoing a sea change.And in all of this,it has to be manufactured to controlled budget....yes,it's a commercial product,not a one off ,but mass produced into which a financial investment has been injected .It's success matters.It has to sell.Time is money.If Kernow wait around forever attempting to adjust and appease,then it cannot be regained..Nothing is perfect.Most things are a compromise.

I am willing to bet most of us will be delighted by the finished model.Such a model would have been beyond all dreams a decade ago.This is Kernow's baby.Allow them to get on with it

[PhilH]

To my mind there is a parallel to this discussion, the never ending debate about merits of certain tv programmes whilst conveniently forgetting there is an 'off' button, or the choice button as I like to call it.

 

Surely the parallel here is if you can see myriad faults don't buy it.

 

If you're happy with it, buy it.

 

It's a choice we can all make without getting worked up about it.

 

Simples......

Edited October 7, 2014 by PhilH

[aussiebrfan]

There is a difference between;

Well intentioned, constructive criticism, which either helps a manufacturer produce a better model, or which enables the modeller to make an educated choice of purchase.

And

banging on ad nauseum about it.

I wholeheartedly agree. The time for input into design has long passed.

The time is now to wait and see what is produced, the proof is in the pudding!!

This forum as far as I see it is for modeling and inspiration, not axe grinding or band wagon riding.

I for one am sure that Kernow and the learned minds they have consulted in the whole process will produce a quality product.

[Ian Hargrave]

Is there not a middle ground between doggedly banging the drum and taking your ball home in a sulk?

Wholeheartedly agree but also remember the saying 'Let sleeping dogs lie'.This one will awake all too soon,never fear.

[Arthur]

May I say again, we've never had it so good.

 

PB

Spot on, Peter.

 

Do we have perfection? No, and we're never going to this side of heaven. But, we do have RTR models immeasurably better than we had a few years back, and of prototypes we could never have dreamed of. By all means urge the manufacturers to improve further, supply information to them, but be realistic and keep it civilised.

 

I find it hard to get too worked up over a few minor discrepancies in a new model. I genuinely appreciate those who take the time to, constructively, point out errors so that I can make an educated purchase and, if I feel the need, get out the glue and scalpel and make a few improvements. That is good, but there is no excuse for ripping a model or a manufacturer to shreds. As Phil said, if you don't like it don't buy it.

 

I uploaded some model photos a while back under 'the way we were' heading, illustrating the lengths you once had to go to to get a half decent model. One was of an ex LMS Crab built from a Lima body on scratch frames, new motor and gears, Romford wheels, Lima cylinders and valve gear and trailing an Airfix 4F tender body on a Comet chassis.

 

After all that effort it still isn't as good as a Bachmann Crab.

 

That's probably why I'm so appreciative of the efforts the RTR boys today and understanding of the constrains they face.

 

If you want the 'perfect' model then either build it yourself or commission it from one of the handful of professional builders who could meet your standards. It'll cost a tad more than Kernow's 02 will......

Edited October 8, 2014 by Arthur

[Craigw]

"If you want the 'perfect' model then either build it yourself or commission it from one of the handful of professional builders who could meet your standards. It'll cost a tad more than Kernow's 02 will......"

 

Ok, I have read through the previous few pages and I certainly cannot see anyone saying they want a "perfect" 02. I saw some comments about the size of the vent holes and others commenting on the proportions of the cab. 

 

Things that looking at a photo may, or may not clear up.

 

But nowhere at all do any of the ones who are being critical of the model ask for a perfect model. Some people don't like this and belly ache that we have never had it so good. The same thing was being said about never having it so good was being said 10 years ago, should everything have stopped at that standard?. 

 

Seriously, some are happy with the model, and some have a few doubts about things. 

 

What is the problem if they voice concerns?

 

Craig W

[Oldddudders]

 

What is the problem if they voice concerns?

 

 

Not least because you can find some of the same players voicing concerns on a number of other models under development - and irritating a different set of RMwebbers in the process. Laser scanning of prototypes should mean we get pretty close to accuracy - as far as affordable manufacturing techniques allow, of course. From that point on, and certainly once the EPs are published, carps and comments are unlikely to improve the model in any discernible way unless relating to a particular version of the prototype. They may also delay production, which is a bit of a bore for those of us who may not live long enough to be able to buy one.....

[Arthur]

"If you want the 'perfect' model then either build it yourself or commission it from one of the handful of professional builders who could meet your standards. It'll cost a tad more than Kernow's 02 will......"

 

 

 

Seriously, some are happy with the model, and some have a few doubts about things. 

 

What is the problem if they voice concerns?

 

Craig W

 

Er.....none Craig, as my post, I thought, clearly stated.

 

I'll repeat, make criticisms, point out errors, share your knowledge, say, if you so feel "it's not for me'", then let others decide whether it's for them or not, but above all keep it constructive and civilised. That is good, useful and appreciated.

 

As for perfection, it often feels that some expect that for a little over a hundred quid.

[aussiebrfan]

 

What is the problem if they voice concerns?

 

 

 

By all means voice concerns, but dont go on about it repeatedly and do it at the appropriate time. The opportunity to contribute something positive to the design process has long since passed. The train has left the station!!