The Derby Line, Four Track LNER J6

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Tony,

 

I am following this one with interest. I have one of these in the stash albeit under the majestic Models label but a conversation with George Dawson not long before he passed away told me that it was a kit that he bought in rather than one he designed so I suspect that they have the same origins - I have just had a look at the etches and they are marked Oakville 1990.

 

Seasons greetings to you and your good lady.

[dibateg]

Thanks Rob -

 

and I wish you both Seasons greetings and a Happy New Year too.

 

An inspection of the etching in my kit shows them to be marked with Wychbury Loco Works 1994...

 

It's been a pretty sociable Xmas, but I found time yesterday to prepare the cranks for soldering. Each section of the crank casting that interfaces with the axle has been drilled 1mm and pinned with Nickel Silver wire. The valve gear eccentric have been blackened to protect against any stray solder. Maybe tomorrow, I shall dig the plumbing flux out and set to with the torch.

[jim.snowdon]

Don't panic, but is the far end of the exposed axle longer than the near end? It might just be an optical illusion, but I can imagine the dark mutterings if you soldered it up and it was off centre.

 

Jim

[dibateg]

Thanks Jim -

no - the far outside crank is a bit more rounded off on the visible edge there..

 

Cheers

Tony

[jim.snowdon]

Who said the camera never lies. I'd rather it was an illusion than an oops moment.

 

Jim

[7mm Mick]

Hi Tony,

 

I'm just working on the very same but have opted to lactate my cranks? Lets hope they stand the test of time. What solder are you using?I take it with the mention of a plumbing torch that there's a sizeable amount of heat being applied?

 

Oh and a Happy New Year for later mate

 

Cheers Mick 

[david.hill64]

Hi Tony,

 

I'm just working on the very same but have opted to lactate my cranks? Lets hope they stand the test of time. What solder are you using?I take it with the mention of a plumbing torch that there's a sizeable amount of heat being applied?

 

Oh and a Happy New Year for later mate

 

Cheers Mick 

Lactated your cranks? Ooh -err- vicar!

 

Can you get treatment on the NHS?

[richard i]

Hi Tony,

 

I'm just working on the very same but have opted to lactate my cranks? Lets hope they stand the test of time. What solder are you using?I take it with the mention of a plumbing torch that there's a sizeable amount of heat being applied?

 

Oh and a Happy New Year for later mate

 

Cheers Mick

 

Thankfully it is not just me who thinks that is wrong on so many levels. Pray tell, without sniggering, what lactating your crank is in modeling terms?

Thanks

Richard

[david.hill64]

Thankfully it is not just me who thinks that is wrong on so many levels. Pray tell, without sniggering, what lactating your crank is in modeling terms?

Thanks

Richard

Using loctite with predictive text?

[dibateg]

I love the idea of lactating cranks, that did make us laugh! Maybe I don't trust Loctite and it's really just as easy to solder. Happy New Year Mick!

 

So here is what I did -

I made sure everything was clean first.

The eccentric straps were blackened so that they didn't catch any solder.

The crank and bits was re-assembled and I used plumbers 'No Nonsense traditional flux' pushed into the holes for the pins and placed carefully around the axle/crank interface with a cocktail stick.

Then I used a Qualitek ' No Clean Solder Paste Type:619D' - it comes in a syringe and I put it around all the bits I wanted to solder.

It is then actually heated separately for each crank quite gently and I use a Nimrod Pro-Torch. The solder paste soon goes liquid and you can see the ring of solder around the axle - some drips off.. After doing the second crank - the whole thing was hot enough just to add some 60/40 to top up the joins and it melted straight in.

Then a coffee and allow to cool down.

 

And I have to thank Richard Lambert for teaching me how to do this - this is now my 3rd.. I never ever dreamt that I would be capable of making working inside motion.

 

The unwanted axle is cut away with a piercing saw and then the assembly is cleaned up.

 

I spent a day or so making up the rest of the valve gear and getting it to run without tight spots - there is some good advice in Laurie Griffin's instructions.

I scratched up slidebar support and cylinder ends. Strangely the running plate seems a lot shorter than the frames, so they'll need trimming.

 

[N15class]

I love the idea of lactating cranks, that did make us laugh! Maybe I don't trust Loctite and it's really just as easy to solder. Happy New Year Mick!

 

So here is what I did -

I made sure everything was clean first.

The eccentric straps were blackened so that they didn't catch any solder.

The crank and bits was re-assembled and I used plumbers 'No Nonsense traditional flux' pushed into the holes for the pins and placed carefully around the axle/crank interface with a cocktail stick.

Then I used a Qualitek ' No Clean Solder Paste Type:619D' - it comes in a syringe and I put it around all the bits I wanted to solder.

It is then actually heated separately for each crank quite gently and I use a Nimrod Pro-Torch. The solder paste soon goes liquid and you can see the ring of solder around the axle - some drips off.. After doing the second crank - the whole thing was hot enough just to add some 60/40 to top up the joins and it melted straight in.

Then a coffee and allow to cool down.

 

And I have to thank Richard Lambert for teaching me how to do this - this is now my 3rd.. I never ever dreamt that I would be capable of making working inside motion.

 

The unwanted axle is cut away with a piercing saw and then the assembly is cleaned up.

 

I spent a day or so making up the rest of the valve gear and getting it to run without tight spots - there is some good advice in Laurie Griffin's instructions.

I scratched up slidebar support and cylinder ends. Strangely the running plate seems a lot shorter than the frames, so they'll need trimming.

 

P1030178.JPG

I was surprised how easy it is to do inside motion. I have a LSWR 700 coming up so I experimented with dummy motion, then on my most recent a LSWR G6 I scratch built working motion. The crank was done in a similar way to yours. I think it will be part of all the builds for myself.

 

Nice build so far as we have come to expect from you.

[7mm Mick]

Bloody predictive text, that'll teach me for rushing my post!! Although I do love my models I think that is just a step too far  I'm enjoying having time to catch up on your thread Tony and as Peter says, a lovely build this one,

 

Cheers Mick

[dibateg]

Maybe I'm picky. but I seem to have had to modify each part of this kit so far. The brakes didn't resemble J94 ones at all, fortunately the spare brakes drawer had something suitable - I've no idea of the origin. No provision is made for the stretchers, so they are made up from rectangular section tube. The cab has been tacked together to test the fit of the motor/gearbox. I've added Griffin sandtraps, and am awaiting some proper WD handrail knobs that should arrive today from Roxey.

[Adam]

I note what you say about the handrail knobs but it's worth noting that not all the Austerity tanks bought by the LNER had the plain, 'WD' type ones. All the Hunslet built locos (the majority built but not in the majority owned by the LNER) had the normal type. As I recall it was the Barclay build that had the WD version* but since I'm on the way to work I don't have the relevant data to hand. The only two J94s sold to industry, and the only two preserved, incidentally, were Barclay-built so if you're following one of those - 68077 or 68078 - that's fine.

 

Adam

 

* one of the other builders did likewise, but which escapes me right now.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Adam

[dibateg]

Thanks Adam - fortunately 68074, the subject of my build is an Andrew Barclay - phew!

[Adam]

BR did end up with a disproportionate number of the Barclay-built version (Barclay didn't build all that many) so the odds were in favour, but should you ever have to build another, you'll be forewarned.

 

EDIT - just for reference, the other builders to use the 'WD' type handrail stanchion were Hudswell, Clarke and Vulcan Foundry. A Hudswell machine here:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/7128376177/in/album-72157627014288780/

 

And a Vulcan Foundry here:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/5857138500/in/album-72157627014288780/

 

Note the 'Lambton' cab and rather dainty (for an Austerity) cast steel wheels. There is more prototype information out there, notably the instructions for the RT Models chassis kit (4mm). I should add that I wrote that bit of the instructions and completely forgot to mention handrail knobs though they were noted in the material by Don Townsley I used. Oops. The instructions are here:

 

http://www.rtmodels.co.uk/4slc001%204mm%20scale%20%2000emp4%20austerity%20chassis%20revised%20design.pdf

 

Adam

Edited January 6, 2016 by Adam

[hobbyhorse]

The builds coming along nicely, on all the crank axles that I've done these have always been loctited and pinned.

Not had any problem with them, all three nelsons have them as does my bigger builds up to 7' 1/4" models.

I find it a lot cleaner method of construction.

 

Simon

[dibateg]

Thanks Simon -

that's interesting that you use Loctite for your crank axles - it is testament to your considerable engineering skills that it is obviously successful. It shows how false person perceptions can be! I just had visions of them eventually coming apart, my mistrust of glue perhaps.. And yes after soldering, there is some significant cleaning up required.

 

I hope I've not been to critical of the J94 kit, looking at the etchings they were designed in 1994..and it will build into the model that I want.

 

Thanks Adam for the links - any info is always interesting and useful.

 

Regards

Tony

[Rob Pulham]

 

An inspection of the etching in my kit shows them to be marked with Wychbury Loco Works 1994...

 

 

 

Perhaps not from the same source then after all Tony.

[Guest Isambarduk]

Note that hobbyhorse said "these have always been loctited and pinned."   The 'real work' is taken on by the pins; the Loctite mostly ensure that they stay there and that everything stays tight.  David

[Mike Boucher]

Note that hobbyhorse said "these have always been loctited and pinned."   The 'real work' is taken on by the pins; the Loctite mostly ensure that they stay there and that everything stays tight.  David

 

I was always told that loctite had great tensile strength (i.e. - hard to pull apart), which is why the old commercials could show a guy hanging by his hard-hat.  But, they're not great in shear strength (i.e. - sliding apart)

 

That's why you really need pins as well as loctite.

 

(says the guy who once built a cranshaft by pinning together and then sliver soldering...)

 

BTW - that commercial might have been US only.  Here's the ad...  

[dibateg]

Thanks guys - interesting. I'll stay with my solder though! That's to do with my confidence in accurately engineering the thing to a proper tight fit in the first place..

 

The cab is coming on and I'm getting to grips with the style of the kit now. Part need trimming to fit and the kit is of it's age. After studying the photos, I see more detail is required, such as the beading around the cab window. It doesn't go all the way round and there are separate tabs to mount the tops of the handrails - they are not attached to an extension of the beading.

 

[david.hill64]

Wow!

 

I am always amazed by how clean you can keep your brass. I know you wash it a lot but mine develops a thin layer of cruddite that never wants to stay away!

[jim.snowdon]

I was always told that loctite had great tensile strength (i.e. - hard to pull apart), which is why the old commercials could show a guy hanging by his hard-hat.  But, they're not great in shear strength (i.e. - sliding apart)

 

That's why you really need pins as well as loctite.

 

(says the guy who once built a cranshaft by pinning together and then sliver soldering...)

 

BTW - that commercial might have been US only.  Here's the ad...  

 

As far as I am aware, Loctite was originally developed as a thread retainer, in which application it is there to resist shear forces, which it does rather well. The issue with these adhesives, to my knowledge, is a lack of peel strength, which is quite different from shear or tensile strength.

 

As far as the crankshafts are concerned, if the Loctite is doing its job, the share of the torsional load borne by the pin is negligible; if the pin was taking the majority of the load, the Loctite bond would have had to have failed.

 

Jim

[Guest Isambarduk]

"As far as the crankshafts are concerned, if the Loctite is doing its job, the share of the torsional load borne by the pin is negligible; if the pin was taking the majority of the load, the Loctite bond would have had to have failed."

 

I really don't think it's as simple as that, Jim.  If the Loctite is doing its job, as you describe it, the pins would be quite unnecessary - which they probably are.

 

However, the way I would 'design it' the pins are doing the job and the Loctite is just there to keep the pins in place.  That said, like Tony, I always pin and solder my crankshafts; the solder keeping the pins in place and ensuring that everything stays tight.

 

David