Gatso red light camera

[PaulRhB]

... and I was crediting them with being lenient and friendly

They probably thought you cut it to the limit and thought a warning would work better no real chance of it standing unless they could prove you accelerated.

[Pennine MC]

Not quite, the highway code wording is poor on this issue, but states "AMBER means 'Stop' at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident"

 

So if I'm approaching an amber light and a bozo behind me is accelerating I'm still going to go through the amber light rather than be tailgated.

 

 

Isnt this just the nub of it though? (in general terms, not necessarily Jenny's specific case) - it's always going to be a judgment call as to whether "to pull up *might* cause an accident". The Code is indeed vaguely worded, because it harks from a time when drivers were actually trusted to exercise some decision-making ability.

 

If it's debatable whether that was the case, then with the number of folk these things must catch, it must surely be sensible for the authorities to concentrate on offences that are less capable of being contested.

[porkie]

At the end of the day this is a grey area and could swing eitherway...

 

You have your tacho to back you up on speed and time, if they get fussy on what speed you were doing.

 

And Ive seen cops and others carry on through an amber light because it has not been safe to stop safley being on top of the white line etc

[lankyphil]

I think it might just be down to luck of the draw of who is scrutinising the pictures?

 

Unfortunately there are way too many people on the roads that don't understand that 44 tonnes doesn't stop in the same distance as their car and therefore tailgate you or use the horn to show their displeasure for you using their road. But when you try and compensate for these people by maybe leaving a bigger gap in front of you or driving slower through built up areas, you get someone else nip into the space in front of you, or once again use their horn/finger(s)/shout etc...

 

But then to round it all off, you (possibly) get a ticket because someone fluffed a gear change (I sat at a roundabout for at least a full minute the other night trying to get into low range! ). Gotta love trucking...

 

Probably talking to the TM would be a good idea... Might back you up maybe? If you've got a good one/haven't annoyed them?

 

Good luck

 

Phil

[mark54]

Traffic light Gatso cameras take three photos, one with the vehicle in front of the stop line, one with the vehicle over the stop line and one showing the vehicle fully across the junction, the last being to show that the vehicle didn’t stop once over the line. All photos will show the red light, the speed the vehicle was travelling, and the exact time.

 

Crossing an amber light is not an offence. On that basis you should be OK, and it was the Merc who was flashed.

 

The police have to serve a Notice of Intended Prosecution on the registered keeper of the vehicle within 14 days so you should know fairly soon. Also just because the camera flashed is no guarantee it was in operation.

[beast66606]

An interesting quote from a lawyers website ..

 

I drive an articulated vehicle. Quite often when I approach the lights they are green, but by the time by vehicle is through, they have changed to red. There is nothing I can do because of the length of the vehicle. Why should I be prosecuted?

If the red light is not showing when the front of the vehicle crosses the line, but is illuminated before the rest of the vehicle has passed, an offence is committed. The rules state that it is your obligation as a driver to ensure that the whole of the vehicle can pass on green. If it cannot, you should not proceed.

[newbryford]

 

So if I'm approaching an amber light and a bozo behind me is accelerating I'm still going to go through the amber light rather than be tailgated.

 

 

One of the theory questions is:

 

(I would quote the full question and multiple choice answers, but I've lent my theory question book to my niece who is taking her theory test next week)**

 

You are approaching a traffic light that has been on green for some time - what must you do?

 

The answer is "be prepared to stop"......

 

By this - it means check your mirrors early to see if someone is tailgating or coming up quickly.

And what's the response to tailgaters?

 

Answer - slow down - even if it's only a simple foot gently off the gas. A reduction in speed by 10% - let's say 30 to 27mph, which sounds like a negligible amount, but will result in a reduction of the braking distance by almost 20%.

 

 

** To open a HUGE can of worms, I suggest that all drivers are subject to a theory (and possible re-evaluation of their driving skills) on a reasonably regular basis.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Talltim]

An interesting quote from a lawyers website ..

 

I drive an articulated vehicle. Quite often when I approach the lights they are green, but by the time by vehicle is through, they have changed to red. There is nothing I can do because of the length of the vehicle. Why should I be prosecuted?

If the red light is not showing when the front of the vehicle crosses the line, but is illuminated before the rest of the vehicle has passed, an offence is committed. The rules state that it is your obligation as a driver to ensure that the whole of the vehicle can pass on green. If it cannot, you should not proceed.

 

 

 

So if your vehicle is too long and slow to accelerate to completely pass the lights from a standstill before they return to red you should just stay there forever?

[Russ (mines a pint)]

If you (ie the front of the vehicle) were definitely over the line before the red came on I would contest it (if you hear anything) as from what I understand the camera will only activate after the light has gone on red- therefore the car has triggered it.

 

I stopped a bus slightly over the line (to avoid damage to standing passengers rather than slamming on and stopping before the line) and a taxi came down the outside and jumped the red setting the camera off. This annoyed me so much that I got further advice in case it came to anything.

 

Quite obviously if you think another road user has triggered the camera you should be prepared to contest it, why should you take the blame for someone else? - at my old work the union had a book written by an ex police officer stating how many camera convictions where based on people just paying the bill an alarmingly high proportion could be contested successfully, I will try find a link to the book.

 

DRIVER SURVIVAL HANDBOOK:

- My own point of view on this by the way is that if somethings a 'fair cop' then you should put your hand up and say sorry! I'm not convinced of this argument with red light camera's as I am not convinced they make enough allowances for vehicles with standing (or unseatbelted) passengers, panic braking is definitely not required!

[pH]

A bit OT - there are traffic signals here (British Columbia) which are a bit like railway distant signals. On roads with a speed limit of more than 60 KPH (I think), about 150 metres back from regular traffic lights, there are a couple of orange lights over the road. If you see those lights begin to flash, you know that by the time you get to the regular lights, they will be showing red. It gives enough warning for trucks and buses to brake, so there's plenty of time for cars. It can feel unusual, braking with a green light showing ahead of you, but you get used to it.

[Russ (mines a pint)]

A bit OT - there are traffic signals here (British Columbia) which are a bit like railway distant signals. On roads with a speed limit of more than 60 KPH (I think), about 150 metres back from regular traffic lights, there are a couple of orange lights over the road. If you see those lights begin to flash, you know that by the time you get to the regular lights, they will be showing red. It gives enough warning for trucks and buses to brake, so there's plenty of time for cars. It can feel unusual, braking with a green light showing ahead of you, but you get used to it.

When the UK starts looking pro-actively at road safety, rather than using it as a big stick/make money scheme we could perhaps suggest this to them! - to be fair Its only the traffic light gatso's I disagree with, if you are so far over the speed limit that you trigger a speed one I reckon you have only yourself to blame!

So if your vehicle is too long and slow to accelerate to completely pass the lights from a standstill before they return to red you should just stay there forever?

Sounds alot like Christmas there were places in my old home town where the lights could change 5 or 6 times and you wouldn't turn a wheel! - can be used to advantage of course?

[trisonic]

A bit OT - there are traffic signals here (British Columbia) which are a bit like railway distant signals. On roads with a speed limit of more than 60 KPH (I think), about 150 metres back from regular traffic lights, there are a couple of orange lights over the road.

 

 

They do something similar at some junctions in New Jersey too.

 

I was trained thusly: When approaching a green light check the traffic coming towards you. If it is bunched and accelerating then the lights have only just changed, conversely constant speed and more spread out then the lights are more likely to be at the end of their green cycle - prepare accordingly.

 

Nothing is perfect, however. I take the view if a traffic light is green when it comes into my view it will always turn red when I approach it ('cos it usually does...............)

 

Best, Pete.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

 

** To open a HUGE can of worms, I suggest that all drivers are subject to a theory (and possible re-evaluation of their driving skills) on a reasonably regular basis.

Cheers,

Mick

 

This is something which came up on the Speed Awareness Course I attended earlier this week (saves the Points dunnit - but it is a good idea) and the chap running the course advanced the idea that as far as driving skills are concerned there should be no need to re-evaluate the skills of a competent and properly trained motor vehicle driver. But in practice because there are plenty of poorly trained drivers on the roads and plenty of bad ones it is they who should receive training (note NOT re-training). However the big gap with motorists who have long since passed their test, or indeed even those who have taken the current theory test, is knowledge of the Highway Code and what it means in practice. Thus if you talk about stopping distances what is in the Highway Code is meaningless to most people - it's something they learnt in order to pass the test and in the majority of cases it is then either forgotten or not capable of being translated into practical application and we were shown a film which was probably a lot more useful than looking at the numbers.

 

Mind you does training work - after we left one of the attendees was pretty near tail-gating another on a 50 mph rural road (which in casualty etc terms is the most dangerous road of the lot!).

[Oldddudders]

Thus if you talk about stopping distances what is in the Highway Code is meaningless to most people - it's something they learnt in order to pass the test and in the majority of cases it is then either forgotten or not capable of being translated into practical application

True. I have very little idea what 50 feet or metres means in real terms, but do have a habit of sitting well back from the car in front once we get beyond 10-15 mph. I also believe in looking well-ahead - hundreds of yards is where the action is that I need to understand. This can work against me, of course - as I get towards a roundabout I already know whether there is any need to give way, having looked at the incoming traffic, while in front of me the typical French motorist, for whom roundabouts are still a bit of a novelty, may well stop at the line before checking if it's safe to proceed!

[Colin_McLeod]

... my point was "do not enter the box unless your exit is clear".

 

Ed

 

Today on the A580 I reached the stop line in lane 1 at a box juction ...........The lorry in front slowed on the junction, appearing to miss a gear change, forcing me to slow........

 

 

Ed could be correct. The whole issue of the lights/camera/action/speed could be irrelevant. If the exit to the box junction was blocked by the lorry in front, then the rules state that one should not enter.

 

Sorry Jenny. That probably does not help!

[Kenton]

Thus if you talk about stopping distances what is in the Highway Code is meaningless to most people - it's something they learnt in order to pass the test and in the majority of cases it is then either forgotten or not capable of being translated into practical application and we were shown a film which was probably a lot more useful than looking at the numbers.

Very true. As what most people forget is that the Highway Code is not a rule book as such it is a "Voluntary" Code of Practice and a guideline to driving. Some of it is law some of it is not, but not following it can easily lead to accusations of careless driving.

There are many, if not most, vehicles that can exceed (better) the stopping distances given. Braking technology has moved on considerably. But the part that still applies is the "thinking distance" It is that which is considerably improved by approaching every potential hazard (including green lights) by being prepared to slow down and stop. Including being aware of your surroundings, cars behind and their progress, road conditions, or even the fact that the lights have failed and the crossing traffic may be proceeding.

 

Mind you does training work - after we left one of the attendees was pretty near tail-gating another on a 50 mph rural road (which in casualty etc terms is the most dangerous road of the lot!).

The driving test is purely a license to get in a vehicle and drive it. It does not represent in any way competence in driving.

 

Most people simply do not think ahead. On that twisting country road they seem to place brain in neutral. Think ahead around that blind corner could be a stationary tractor, broken down car, or a big puddle, patch of ice ... will you be able to stop, will there be any safety zone you could swerve into or will you just become another statistic. Or will you meet a similarly unthinking driver coming the other way, going too fast, cutting the corner, trying to regain control of their vehicle?

 

I always think an excellent part of the advanced course (not the refresher one) is to be able to talk through what is happening in the road environment. Everything from the downright obvious to the possible and potential hazards, It is a very challenging thing to do and when you first try it you soon find all the things that you miss and how short sighted driving tends to be. Thinking ahead is the best driving skill you can learn ... those green lights will always be amber and you should be able to stop - if they are green as you pass them then you can accelerate away with your driving brain already miles down the road assessing the next hazard.

[beast66606]

So if your vehicle is too long and slow to accelerate to completely pass the lights from a standstill before they return to red you should just stay there forever?

 

I was quoting from a legal advice site, not saying it made sense ...

 

(I would guess the answer to your question would be to seek advice before using such a vehicle on public roads)

[Jenny Emily]

 

I drive an articulated vehicle. Quite often when I approach the lights they are green, but by the time by vehicle is through, they have changed to red. There is nothing I can do because of the length of the vehicle. Why should I be prosecuted?

If the red light is not showing when the front of the vehicle crosses the line, but is illuminated before the rest of the vehicle has passed, an offence is committed. The rules state that it is your obligation as a driver to ensure that the whole of the vehicle can pass on green. If it cannot, you should not proceed.

 

 

If that really were the case then all drivers ought to be issued with a crystal ball to stick to the dashboard. How can anyone know exactly when a traffic light is about to change? Given also that there are some traffic lights that cycle very quickly (I'm thinking of some of the peak time signals on motorway slip roads for a start) as others have said, that would leave a vehicle permanently stationary and gridlock for miles at rush hour.

 

Clearly that quote comes from somewhere that the person doesn't actually understand the law properly; to remain stationary at a set of traffic lights indefinitely would clearly be an offence of blocking the highway. Some legislation is so badly worded as to be unenforcible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[beast66606]

Clearly that quote comes from somewhere that the person doesn't actually understand the law properly

 

Right or wrong it came from a firm claiming to specialise in traffic offences

 

http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/offences/traffic_lights.htm

[F-UnitMad]

... Thus if you talk about stopping distances what is in the Highway Code is meaningless to most people -

I'm sure I remember a 'Car Program' on TV some years back (might've been Top Gear, but possibly another) where they compared the Stopping Distances quoted in the Highway Code with what cars today can actually achieve, and the Highway Code figures were found to be seriously out of date, especially with ABS and so on.

 

Another bit in the Highway Code people forget is the different speed limits for different vehicles on the same road - and not just motorways. The worst one is on single carraigeway roads where the HGV limit is 40mph whereas for cars it's 60. On a long straight road like parts of the A1 or A5 just try it!!! You'll get abuse off plenty of other trucks, too, never mind cars, who wonder why on earth you're "dawdling" along just holding everybody else up for no good reason...

When that limit was set (in the 1960s IIRC?) 40mph was about as fast as an HGV could safely go anyway- it also applied to dual carraigeways at first; since then things like disc brakes, ABS (which has been law on trucks for a long time) and power steering have meant that on many single carraigeway Trunk roads (as opposed to country lanes!!), such a low speed is positively dangerous, as well as being simply frustrating, which is why many HGVs will go faster than 40 very often. There is lobbying going on by the RHA to look at the issue of HGV speed limits, but while the Press feeds the public image of "Killer Juggernauts", and some (especially Foreign) drivers continue to damage the image of us all with their stupidity, such issues will never be dealt with reasonably.

[Jenny Emily]

It used to be as low as 20mph once upon a time, and IIRC wagon and drag combinations were limited to 30 on single carriageway roads as recently as the 1980s.

 

Once upon a time wagon brakes were somewhat vague. When air brakes first turned up, a lot of the new lorries at the time had warnings on the rear to inform other motorists (probably other truckers following close behind) that the vehicle might stop a little quicker than older models. In a very old copy of commercial motor I remember seeing a photo of an eight wheel tanker that had the sign on the back of the tank reading: "Caution: air brakes. Watch my behind and not hers"

 

A lot of the highway code needs updating, though it's a moot point whether most drivers would read it to know. Is the page containing hand signals still in there? I think most drivers would fail to recognise the hand signals for turning left, turning right and slowing down if they came up upon another vehicle driver using them.

[Belsay Lad]

 

The driving test is purely a license to get in a vehicle and drive it. It does not represent in any way competence in driving.

 

 

Re the above - I well remember my driving instructor's parting words to me after I had passed my test *hrm hrm* years ago. 'I have taught you to past the driving test, now is when you will really learn how to drive!'

[newbryford]

 

I was trained thusly: When approaching a green light check the traffic coming towards you. If it is bunched and accelerating then the lights have only just changed, conversely constant speed and more spread out then the lights are more likely to be at the end of their green cycle - prepare accordingly.

 

Nothing is perfect, however. I take the view if a traffic light is green when it comes into my view it will always turn red when I approach it ('cos it usually does...............)

 

Best, Pete.

 

That's fine if you've got busy, open view, multi-lane junctions, (typically in the US) but in places where there's restricted visibility, single lanes etc - lots in the UK, then it isn't as easy. There's a set of lights near me that will sometimes only let 3-4 cars through and at other times it's 3 dozen! So the "bunched vehicle" theory cannot be applied. I go with the "a green light will turn to red"(via amber of course) at some point.

 

 

However the big gap with motorists who have long since passed their test, or indeed even those who have taken the current theory test, is knowledge of the Highway Code and what it means in practice. Thus if you talk about stopping distances what is in the Highway Code is meaningless to most people - it's something they learnt in order to pass the test and in the majority of cases it is then either forgotten or not capable of being translated into practical application and we were shown a film which was probably a lot more useful than looking at the numbers.

 

Quite - how many people on here can readily admit to knowing what a Toucan crossing is - or a Puffin crossing? How many people think that the national speed limit for a car on a single carriageway is either 50 or 70?

 

Studies have shown that a significant percentage of so-called experienced drivers would fail the current theory test. I recently carried out a test amongst agroup of 50-70 year olds and less than half achieved the pass rate............

 

As mentioned elsewhere, stopping distances quoted in the highway code and elsewhere - in particular braking distances - have changed significantly. Thinking distances have not. I can mathematically work out the distances, but I haven't time to do that whilst driving. The "two-second rule" is the simplest survival guide.

 

 

Re the above - I well remember my driving instructor's parting words to me after I had passed my test *hrm hrm* years ago. 'I have taught you to past the driving test, now is when you will really learn how to drive!'

 

I was also told that *hrm hrm* years ago, but in my line of work, it's now considered an old-fashioned statement. I consider learning to drive to be the first principle - learning to pass a test comes after that........

 

 

Here's another red light discussion/dilemma.

 

You are at a set of red traffic lights and an emergency vehicle with blues and twos on comes up behind you. You are holding him (or her) up. What do you do?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[James]

You are at a set of red traffic lights and an emergency vehicle with blues and twos on comes up behind you. You are holding him (or her) up. What do you do?

That happened on my advanced (IAM) test!

 

I was the first and only car outside lane on this bit of dual carriageway (a main road into Hull) with the left hand lane with a queue of about six cars waiting to turn left so I pulled slowly forward, having checked no pedestrians were going cross the road in front of us and pulled as far to the right as I could. The ambulance then went through with no problems.

 

I passed my test by the way

[Derekl]

The Highway Code was first published in 1931. The stopping distances are the same (albeit now in metric) in the current edition, suggesting there has been no improvement in brake, tyre and road surface performance in 80 years.

 

The hand signals are still there as a supplement to rule 103, although they are presented in a less amusing fashion.