David Todd Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Morning Gwiwer Reverting to the TLV livery question above were they not first in maroon livery when transferred to the SR after conversion? Yes they were. Due to high season boat train traffic,1963-1968. It was decided to up the anti, and have 2 luggage vans for boat trains from the channel ports,leading a formation of 12 car Ceps. So 6.conventional BG. luggage vans were to become TLV's, fitting them out with EP braking, high level air and emu jumper cables. Conversion was carried out @ Selhurst works,in 1968. End corridor cons. were retained and sealed out of use. When converted livery was B.R. Maroon which changed to Inter-city Blue/Grey........... TLV's were taken out of service in 1975. And lived other lives,till 1979....Not many photo's about.... dt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 8, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2012 Didn't think I was misled on the livery there. I have however heard a few (spurious) claims that TLVs were once in green to match the MLVs. No they were not. A few loose-coupled BGs were, I believe, but as you say the maroon ones which underwent LV conversion were outshopped to SR traffic in b/g. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2012 Didn't think I was misled on the livery there. I have however heard a few (spurious) claims that TLVs were once in green to match the MLVs. No they were not. A few loose-coupled BGs were, I believe, but as you say the maroon ones which underwent LV conversion were outshopped to SR traffic in b/g. If the conversion was carried out in '68, they would not have seen any green paint! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 33212 Posted March 8, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2012 Hello I worked at Victoria from 1990, so post Central side rebuild, and recall that the majority of boat trains departed from either platform 2 or 7. Platform 2 can take 16 cars and platform 7 takes 13 - theres the clue.. As mentioned above, much of the baggage was bonded through customs, the Outward Baggage Office or OBO as we knew it as was on platform 7 (the shiny black building) and it was preferred for the MLV's to be at the London end of a train, although not unknown to be at the other end. The area above platforms 7,8 & 9 is known as the "raft" car park and this is where coach loads of passengers would disembark and make their way down in the station via the Central side escalators, their baggage would go into the two lifts down to the platform, both could take two loaded BRUTE trolleys, the trolleys would be towed to wherever needed and the baggage loaded into the MLV's. I believe non bonded items were placed directly into the units brake vans aswell. On platform 7 was the Hoverspeed check in, VSOE check in and also RMT check in, this was the main hub for activity until the new shopping centre in the middle (now WHSmith) was built about 1991/2 when focus moved to Platform 2, the BR International Rail Centre (where I worked) was remodelled, what was the "day of travel" office was split up and converted in to VSOE lounge / check in and RMT / Hoverspeed. The Royal lounge was refurbished and is still used.. Also on platform 7 was Red Star parcels who also but items on boat trains, and Royal Mail lorries arrived at the "raft" car park above at mail train times for another flurry of activity... I assume the same would have happend earleir with newspaper trains but they had stopped by the time I worked there. here is a picture I took at Sandling...just after the MLV's were renumbered - dont know headcode 4 was though, train is heading "up" http://www.flickr.co...57626857089017/ cheers Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted March 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2012 That's an interesting picture. I don't recall seeing MLVs with a VEP before on what looks like a stopping service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 That's an interesting picture. I don't recall seeing MLVs with a VEP before on what looks like a stopping service. Must have missed this post then! Happens to all of us... Headcode 4 was Dover-Tonbridge-Charing Cross I think, certainly not a boat train headcode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2012 Must have missed this post then! Happens to all of us... Headcode 4 was Dover-Tonbridge-Charing Cross I think, certainly not a boat train headcode. Yes, 4 was Ramsgate - CX via Dover, while 90 was Ramsgate - CX via Canterbury West. Sometimes trains from both routes combined at Ashford, and the headcode of the first service to arrive there would simply be carried forward to London, much as happened at Faversham for Chatham services. I think there also used to be a headcode 18, which was the same as 4 - but ran in and out of Minster between calling at Sandwich and arriving at Ramsgate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Evening.. .Thank you for posting,very a good reference........ .Posted Today, 12:09 Hello I worked at Victoria from 1990, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m davies Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 There is still some doubt there: it doesn't say that it dropped down onto a boat train. As posted earlier, the MLVs weren't exclusively used on boat trains. And that's only a caption rather than photographic evidence - a later caption in the same flickr set says "08 592 stands in goodness knows where, don't remember taking these so location unknown", so that photographer wasn't necessarily meticulously recording stuff. Anyone for the new series of CSI:RMweb? Your right, I wasn't meticulous at recording data around that time , girls were taking up most of my time and interest LOL, though I do remember that it was a single unit that went into Victoria, hence assumed that it was going onto its train, or was a single luggage working. I thought most boat trains were preset sets so would arrive with the MLV already at the London end, seeing one arrive on its own I've assumed it's not on a boat train and/or being used as a single or tacked onto the country end of an existing train all ready in the station. I'll check the rest of the negatives and see if there are any later that show where the MLV might have gone/been placed.Kindest Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electrostar Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 The Bachmann website includes the MLV in its news section. Not long to go, hopefully! http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/details.php?id=29&vis=2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Unfortunately, the pre-production shots still show the error in the cabside window lengths on one side (with the battery hatches to the right). I really hope they have corrected the full production models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk_Steve Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 i admit i cant see what you are saying SRman you got any pics to show the error in question? Have you contacted them about your concern? thanks in advance from Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electrostar Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I thought I read somewhere (perhaps earlier in this thread!) that Bachmann were aware of the issue, so fingers crossed that's the case. I don't know about you guys but I'm still pinching myself that we're getting an MLV. Only a few years ago the thought of a ready-to-run MLV, EPB and Cep was the stuff of dreams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanks522 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 here is a picture I took at Sandling...just after the MLV's were renumbered - dont know headcode 4 was though, train is heading "up" http://www.flickr.co...57626857089017/ Excellent picture, now i have something to haul my Hornby VEP. Graham. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 10, 2012 Headcode 4 was Ramsgate to CX via Dover. The MLV may have been on the front from Ramsgate, or attached at Dover, of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 i admit i cant see what you are saying SRman you got any pics to show the error in question? Have you contacted them about your concern? thanks in advance from Steve The Secondman's cab side wnidow (off-side) should be shorter in length. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Replica Railways will be at the Thames Valley Model Rail Expo on the 19th May and Gareth will have the range of Replica products with him ! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Thanks for fielding that query, Ceptic. Looking at the Replica pic, you can see the two different window lengths. However, if Bachmann produce what is shown in their pics, the cabside windows at one end of the MLV would both be short ones while at the otehr end, both would be longer ones, whereas each end should have a longer window on the driver's side, shorter on the secondman's side, as shown by the Replica model. As Electrostar said, this was certainly mentioned earlier in the thread. I revived the question because I found it worrying that Bachmann are showing what appear to be final factory-finished models still with that error. I really hope they have not only taken note of it but actually have corrected it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electrostar Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Fingers crossed! Seeing the three models got me thinking how Modelzone might like to commission an all-blue version to match its all-blue 4Cep, and another shop or the Collectors' Club might fancy the Post Office livery. That would leave NSE and both versions of Jaffa Cake to match the much wished-for refurbished CEPs in those liveries. Only speculation but food for thought. But perhaps I should just concentrate on the near future first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk_Steve Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Thanks Ceptic for the pics all the best from Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 commission an all-blue version do you mean like this,on my newbie layout....?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Thanks for fielding that query, Ceptic. Looking at the Replica pic, you can see the two different window lengths. However, if Bachmann produce what is shown in their pics, the cabside windows at one end of the MLV would both be short ones while at the otehr end, both would be longer ones, whereas each end should have a longer window on the driver's side, shorter on the secondman's side, as shown by the Replica model. As Electrostar said, this was certainly mentioned earlier in the thread. I revived the question because I found it worrying that Bachmann are showing what appear to be final factory-finished models still with that error. I really hope they have not only taken note of it but actually have corrected it. Hi SRman, Uk_Steve & All. No probs. It was just luck I had the pics to hand from an old thread. It's a pity I haven't got any side-on prototype shots, as I'm taking it for granted that Replica's MLV is correct. The reason for the shorter secondman's window was to allow for the auxillary cupboard, positioned against the cab bulkhead on that side, at the battery (A?) end, A smaller cupboard being in the other cab. As you say, I'm also hoping !!, fingers crossed, it wouldn't be like Bachmann to get this detail wrong, as it shows up correctly on their CEP & EPB. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Yes they were. Due to high season boat train traffic,1963-1968. It was decided to up the anti, and have 2 luggage vans for boat trains from the channel ports,leading a formation of 12 car Ceps. So 6.conventional BG. luggage vans were to become TLV's, fitting them out with EP braking, high level air and emu jumper cables. Conversion was carried out @ Selhurst works,in 1968. End corridor cons. were retained and sealed out of use. When converted livery was B.R. Maroon which changed to Inter-city Blue/Grey........... TLV's were taken out of service in 1975. And lived other lives,till 1979....Not many photos about.... The information above I believe is taken from David Brown's superb 'Southern Electric' volume 2 which repeats the claim that "all (TLV) went into service while still painted maroon." I shall admit to not being 100% convinced at this as of the 6 BG used for the conversion to TLV most had been previously reported in 'Railway Observer' as having been repainted into blue/grey. I have also been sent livery details and repaint details on the TLVs (which admittedly are not as complete as other units) as well as the MLVs by John Atkinson who is a respected authority on Southern units. It is believed that only 1 BG became a TLV whilst still maroon (S68203).... Class 499 TLV S68201- 68206 (Mk1 BG with high level air pipes for use with MLV, CEP, BEP) Carried blue/grey on 1968 conversion until withdrawal. S68203 possibly converted in lined maroon. S68201 new5-68BG, 76wdn S68202 new1-68BG, 76wdn S68203 new?-68MR ?-70BG, 76wdn S68204 new2-68BG, 76wdn S68205 new5-68BG, 76wdn Class 419 MLV S68001- 68010 Standard change was from green with small yellow panels to blue/grey with full yellow ends. Exceptions were: Blue with full yellow ends: 68004 Later repaints were: London & SouthEast: 68001*/03/05*/06/07/08/09/10 * early version Network SouthEast: 68001/02/04/08 Royal Mail Red: 68001/04 Blue with full yellow ends: 68003 The first date is repaint from green: S68001 c7-70BG, 6-85LSE(1), 2-89RMR, c6-89NSE(3), wdn S68002 by2-69BG, 6-89NSE(3), wdn S68003 by8-68BG, 3-86LSE(2), BFYE wdn S68004 30-3-67BFYE, c8-70BG, 27-10-88RMR, 7-89NSE(3), wdn S68005 by8-68BG, 3-86LSE(1), wdn S68006 by2-69BG, 27-6-88LSE(2), wdn S68007 by4-70BG, c5-87LSE(2), wdn S68008 by11-69BG, 6-86LSE(2), ? by NSE(3), wdn S68009 by5-70BG, 7-86LSE(2), wdn S68010 by11-69BG, 4-12-86LSE(2), wdn MR- Lined Maroon BFYE- Blue with Full Yellow Ends BG- Blue/Grey with Full Yellow Ends LSE1- London & South East beige/orange/brown LSE2- London & South East beige/orange/brown (revised with black stripe) NSE3- Network SouthEast Blue/white/red/grey- no upsweep at cab ends RMR- Royal Mail Red with twin yellow stripes at base Mark Brinton records in his document 'BR Mk1 NPCCS' the following: S68201 (ex M80913) S68202 (ex M80918) S68203 (ex M80922) (converted in lined maroon) S68204 (ex M80925) S68205 (ex M80942) S68206 (ex M80951) All are recorded as having BR2 bogies on conversion during 1968 but later having Mk2 bogies fitted- ? during 1974. Withdrawal came in 1976 and all were later transferred to the departmental fleet. Of note is that the waist level air pipes and 27-wire jumpers were fitted on the offside only this meant that two TLV could not be coupled together with through MU control.. The gangway connections were retained with the doors sealed up in case of reuse. I have a number of CWN that show the workings of the MLV on both the boat and mail trains. I will try and post some of them if anyone is interested. I hope the above is of some use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Ah yes - the "Flying Fourgon" railtour. 2xMLV at one end and a GLV at the other for motive power. The idea seemed outrageous at the time and no doubt if it was suggested today would be met with a sucking of teeth and a "you can't do that" attitude but it ran and is now a part of railtour folklore. The photograph (and link) is post 82 is actually of the "The Vulcan Vantrain" which ran on March 15th 1986 from Paddington with 50025 to Hastings, thence 33206 to Ashford. Here the train was split (as Robert Carroll describes) and 33201,33206,50025 and 73003 took the now two trains between Ashford and Folkestone. The highlight would have been 68001 and 68005 hauling the train between Ashford- Ashford via Sandwich and Dover Priory. The "Flying Fourgon" ran on May 8th 1989 and utilised 33042, 68007, 68010, 68508 and 8013 running from Charing Cross- Ashford- Hastings- Tunbridge Wells- Hastings- Eastbourne- Clapham Jun- Staines- Portsmouth Harbour- Chichister- Three Bridge- Charing Cross. The main motive power was 68007/10 and 68508 with additional help from 33042 from Ashford-Rye- Hastings. In his article in the SEG journal 'Live Rail', Nick Lawford outlined the story behind the use of the GLV- which involved cutting out some of the traction motors to avoid exceeding the conductor rail index. Will try and post a summary of it when I dig out the article. Details of the tour and some photos can be found on Six Bells Junction- http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/80s/880508se.htm Ah yes - the "Flying Fourgon" railtour. 2xMLV at one end and a GLV at the other for motive power. The idea seemed outrageous at the time and no doubt if it was suggested today would be met with a sucking of teeth and a "you can't do that" attitude but it ran and is now a part of railtour folklore. The photograph (and link) is post 82 is actually of the "The Vulcan Vantrain" which ran on March 15th 1986 from Paddington with 50025 to Hastings, thence 33206 to Ashford. Here the train was split (as Robert Carroll describes) and 33201,33206,50025 and 73003 took the now two trains between Ashford and Folkestone. The highlight would have been 68001 and 68005 hauling the train between Ashford- Ashford via Sandwich and Dover Priory. The "Flying Fourgon" ran on May 8th 1989 and utilised 33042, 68007, 68010, 68508 and 8013 running from Charing Cross- Ashford- Hastings- Tunbridge Wells- Hastings- Eastbourne- Clapham Jun- Staines- Portsmouth Harbour- Chichister- Three Bridge- Charing Cross. The main motive power was 68007/10 and 68508 with additional help from 33042 from Ashford-Rye- Hastings. In his article in the SEG journal 'Live Rail', Nick Lawford outlined the story behind the use of the GLV- which involved cutting out some of the traction motors to avoid exceeding the conductor rail index. Will try and post a summary of it when I dig out the article. Details of the tour and some photos can be found on Six Bells Junction- http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/80s/880508se.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted May 14, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2012 By a curious twist of fate your post has reminded me that I am about to travel over some of the track used by the Vulcan Van Train and Flying Fourgon tours for the first time since those ran! I have very seldom ventured onto the SE main lines (and 'never' do so now being based down under) but have to get from Brighton to Margate and back on the only day when the coastal route is closed for track works. The only option offering a cheap ticket is via Redhill - Tonbridge - Ashford - Canterbury but I don't expect to see any GLV / MLV / TLV stock. Unless I can arrange a diversion via Shepherdswell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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