MLV Pre-production shots

[SRman]

The ones I saw with 12CEP + 2MLV ran to Dover via Tonbridge - I saw them running through Petts Wood in the early to mid-1960s (say 1961 - 1965). They pre-dated the TLVs' creation and were definitely 14 coaches long, all in green.

[petee19]

Whilst I have one of these on order it would be nice if Bachmann also released a non-powered model as well.

[orcadian]

Coupled with up to three Cep units would be prototypical.

 

I don't want to be a nit-picker, and my memory of formations of just over 50 years ago may be faulty, but as I recall things, the MLVs would 'normally' in a Boat Train be on the front end of a Cep-Bep-Cep combination rather than 12-Cep. So until Bachmann give us a Bep, do we actually have anything to run with a green MLV? In the 'green'days, I don't remember seeing an MLV on the Chatham Line with less than 12 cars behind it!

Also, a reminder - the MLV was always the leading vehicle, 'Dover-end' coastbound, 'London-end' into the Smoke'!

 

Richard

[Oldddudders]

 

I don't want to be a nit-picker, and my memory of formations of just over 50 years ago may be faulty, but as I recall things, the MLVs would 'normally' in a Boat Train be on the front end of a Cep-Bep-Cep combination rather than 12-Cep. So until Bachmann give us a Bep, do we actually have anything to run with a green MLV? In the 'green'days, I don't remember seeing an MLV on the Chatham Line with less than 12 cars behind it!

Also, a reminder - the MLV was always the leading vehicle, 'Dover-end' coastbound, 'London-end' into the Smoke'!

Ideally, yes, there would be a BEP in the middle - but the BEP fleet was finite, and on heavy weekends, e.g. bank holidays, then 12CEP was inevitable on some boat trains. Via Chatham - Boat Train Route 3 - was the slowest and poorest of pathways, but necessitated by other considerations. [bTR1 - via Tonbridge; BTR2 - via the Barley Mow (Maidstone East); BTR3 - via Chatham.]

[Budgie]

the MLVs would 'normally' in a Boat Train be on the front end of a Cep-Bep-Cep combination rather than 12-Cep. So until Bachmann give us a Bep, do we actually have anything to run with a green MLV?

Richard

You're right, of course. But railway modelling is full of compromises, so until we get a 4-Bep, we will have to run the MLV with 12-Cep.

[Southernman46]

Anybody got any photos of an MLV on the front of anything other than a CEP (in their prime - not from when they were used as SR run-abouts in the 90's) ?????

[DY444]

 

 

Also, a reminder - the MLV was always the leading vehicle, 'Dover-end' coastbound, 'London-end' into the Smoke'!

 

 

Really? Every picture I've ever seen has them at the London end even on down trains.

[Gwiwer]

And to add to the argument those boat trains I noted (admittedly not on a frequent basis) had the MLV at the Dover end in both directions. One argument a few railmen of the day advanced when discussing the matter was that the extra power at that end provided a welcome shove uphill from Tonbridge or on those uncommon occasions when the Sole Street route was used. While the MLV might have been conveying a fair load the inbuilt power in a 12Cep or Cep+Bep+Cep formation should have been adequate. If there was any truth in that story it may have been more to get the train clear of the section as quickly as possible rather than allowing it to lose speed on the climbs and delay a service train behind.

[The Stationmaster]

And to add to the argument those boat trains I noted (admittedly not on a frequent basis) had the MLV at the Dover end in both directions. One argument a few railmen of the day advanced when discussing the matter was that the extra power at that end provided a welcome shove uphill from Tonbridge or on those uncommon occasions when the Sole Street route was used. While the MLV might have been conveying a fair load the inbuilt power in a 12Cep or Cep+Bep+Cep formation should have been adequate. If there was any truth in that story it may have been more to get the train clear of the section as quickly as possible rather than allowing it to lose speed on the climbs and delay a service train behind.

Actually it makes sense because if there are poor rail conditions the passage of wheels can improve them (not if it's rock hard leaf mulch, alas) so anything powering at the rear stands a much better chance of getting its power to the rail instead of slipping.

[Southernman46]

Don't forget Folkestone Harbour which involved a reversal at Folkestone Jn and needed the MLV to be at the sea end of the train so the MLV would be London end for Down trains on the BTR 1 /2 main line, whereas for Dover Marine, the MLV would be on the front for Down trains - and vice versa.....................resulting in MLV's being seen at either end of boat trains. Boat trains via via BTR3 (Chatham) would have the MLV on the front (Down) and rear (Up), however most trains with MLV's via this route weren't "proper" boat trains and usually had the MLV on the front in either direction (in my experience).

[gelboy45]

I used to commute home on the 6.15pm from Victoria and that regularly had a MLV on the back. Used to move some, especially around the (then) sharp curve at Swanley and across the viaduct at Farningham Road! In fact that train was faster than any of the Javelins to North Kent.......

 

Gerry

[eastwestdivide]

A couple of MLVs with single 4-car units from 1985 (there was a regular slow Dover Priory-Chatham-Victoria service (headcode 30) around lunchtime with MLV+4-VEP usually):

and the same service with MLV+4-CEP:

 

Which shows you don't need yards of back garden to run one on a prototypical passenger service.

 

 

And just to illustrate a Folkestone Harbour to London boat train (headcode 56), one at Ashford heading towards London with MLV and 3x refurbished 4-CEP. Also 1985:

[PhilJ W]

I always thought that luggage vans were usually placed at the 'up' end of a train to avoid carrying heavy cases etc. the length of the platforms at the London termini?

[DY444]

It is surprising that there seem to be remarkably few photos of Boat Trains with MLVs at the country end. In fact I can't find any!

 

A quick look on Google and in my various SR emu books leads me to plenty of boat train pictures however every one has the MLV at the London end. There is one image of Dover Marine where the caption claims an MLV to be leading a down train but the caption is wrong and the MLV is at the London end. Other than that - nothing!

 

My recollection is that the MLVs were usually at the London end and the lack of photographs showing them at the other end tends to support my recollection.

[Oldddudders]

I always thought that luggage vans were usually placed at the 'up' end of a train to avoid carrying heavy cases etc. the length of the platforms at the London termini?

MLVs did not carry ordinary passengers' luggage, as might otherwise simply be placed in the rack above the seat.. They carried registered baggage - registration taking place at Victoria at the Outwards Baggage Office, following which the passenger would not see the luggage again until reclaimed at the other end of the journey. Incoming MLVs would have their contents transferred to the Inwards Baggage Office where it could be reclaimed.

[eastwestdivide]

A look through the library finds a photo of MLV + 2-HAP in 1986 as a parcels service, headcode 58, passing Canterbury East in British Railways Past & Present No 46: Kent, p96.

I seem to recall a single MLV working with the same headcode around that period (or a few years earlier), running up through Medway towards Dartford.

[griffgriff]

A couple of MLVs with a single 4-car unit from 1985 (there was a regular slow Dover Priory-Chatham-Victoria service (headcode 30) around lunchtime with MLV+4-VEP usually:

 

 

... now that might make the thing go up a gradient. Sorry said too much, been told off for that already today

 

However I agree. It does show how a reasonably short train can be modeled and if Bachmann make use of it's colorful potential it would make for an attractive spectacle.

 

I have £5 on a mail red limited edition - crossed fingers.

[eastwestdivide]

Just looking back at those 3 photos I posted, there's a very distinctive pattern of weathering on all three MLVs - a cleanish section back from the cab to the driver's door, then brownish (brake dust etc?) for the rest of the coach. Any thoughts anyone?

[number6]

Was there a carriage washer road on the SE division that only took a 12 car train so the MLV only got its cab end washed?! Whatever the reason from what I remember trains on Eastern were the scruffier than those on the Central section.

 

Edit: Or did it just stick out on the harbour wall at Folkestone and get lashed by the sea...

[eastwestdivide]

On that weathering, the three on http://www.kentrail.org.uk/class_419_MLV.htm show the same pattern

 

Of interest is the last photo on that linked page, an MLV plus BG at Ramsgate in 1981, on a mail working from Ashford.

[David Todd]

h

 

 

 

 

Here's one...........................dt.....

[David Todd]

If you do a search on Flickr it should throw a couple

 

dt......

[griffgriff]

On that weathering, the three on http://www.kentrail....ass_419_MLV.htm show the same pattern

 

Of interest is the last photo on that linked page, an MLV plus BG at Ramsgate in 1981, on a mail working from Ashford.

 

That weathering is really pronounced on those in your link. They seem to get progressively worse... and the last one (from the mail working) just looks so wrong!

[Oldddudders]

I can't explain the circumstances, but it looks as though the MLVs were being "hand-bashed" rather than running through the washers with the passenger stock. Drivers would have refused to take them if the cab windows etc were filthy, so these areas have been given manual attention with long brooms using either Exmoover, or more likely Wundagunge. No idea why, though.

[Gwiwer]

I suspect the MLVs have been part of a 13 or 14-vehicle train which has run through a washer into a headshunt capable of holding only 12 coaches. The cab ends of the MLVs have then been hand-brushed clean for safety in order to give the driver clear visibility. it's as easy to do that as to try cleaning only the windows.

 

Of interest also in the above collections is the MLV+12Cep formation with the two rear units clearly in Jaffa Cake livery. Obviously at the changeover after b/g was officially canned but the chances of randomly coupling two Jaffa Ceps (of which there were never very many) together in a boat train would have to be rather small.