RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted September 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 12, 2014 There's a lot of us who call 'em "Notwork Fail", it's meant to be humourous as those of us who understand railways understand that often things like one-unders etc are nobody's fault as such. This afternoon, we have an "operating incident" of some description. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/82655.aspx Yes heard that there were problems but not sure what. I notice it will continue into the rush hour aswell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 There's nothing obvious showing up on Realtimetrains or National Rail as to what the issue was/is, and there don't seem to be a lot of disruptions at the moment - but with the evening schedule so tight it doesn't take long to all go pear shaped. I hope to make the 1615 Reigate this evening - buses willing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted September 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 12, 2014 There's nothing obvious showing up on Realtimetrains or National Rail as to what the issue was/is, and there don't seem to be a lot of disruptions at the moment - but with the evening schedule so tight it doesn't take long to all go pear shaped. I hope to make the 1615 Reigate this evening - buses willing. Theres a train that departed Uckfiled on time for LBG that got delayed about 40 minutes by the time it departed Crowborough and now 50 late but that must be a separate incident. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Made the 15 and got to Norwood Junction with no excitement so far... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Claude_Dreyfus Posted September 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 12, 2014 Oh Happy Days! My target is the 17:51 to Bognor, and I suspect this will either be delayed or more likely cancelled - being a peak time extra, it only takes a flea to fart in the signal box for it to be cancelled - if things get a bit busy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted September 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 12, 2014 Oh Happy Days! My target is the 17:51 to Bognor, and I suspect this will either be delayed or more likely cancelled - being a peak time extra, it only takes a flea to fart in the signal box for it to be cancelled - if things get a bit busy. Ours came in 5 late but looks as though it will be going on time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 The incident was created at 11.27 on the Network Rail site, so it's been going on a while. Doesn't appear to be disrupting the SE lines fortunately for me. Hope those that need Southern and FCC get home without too much delay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 The incident was created at 11.27 on the Network Rail site, so it's been going on a while. It's just being shown as an 'operating problem', any idea what it might be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Claude_Dreyfus Posted September 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 12, 2014 There have been a few cancellations of inner suburban stuff - West Croydon erc. but ours has just departed on time... Looks like signal failure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted September 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 12, 2014 The incident was created at 11.27 on the Network Rail site, so it's been going on a while. Doesn't appear to be disrupting the SE lines fortunately for me. Hope those that need Southern and FCC get home without too much delay It's just being shown as an 'operating problem', any idea what it might be? There have been a few cancellations of inner suburban stuff - West Croydon erc. but ours has just departed on time... Looks like signal failure. Its an alleged "wrong side" signal failure on L511 signal just outside London Bridge. A driver has alleged that he got a yellow aspect when the signal box indication for said signal was at red with no route set - the train was bought to a stop by TPWS thankfully or you could be looking at something much worse. For those of us in the business a alleged "wrong side failure" is the worst you can get - it was a "wrong side failure" that caused the Clapham Junction smash in the late 80s so anything of this nature is taken very seriously indeed. As I understand it the method of working is that T511 signal will be restricted to a single yellow - BUT double block working will be in force with signalmen having to ensure the train is past T511 before anything can be allowed to approch the signal in rear (L505) thus keeping the situation relatively safe while still allowing trains to run. Tonight the S&T will have to undertake full wrong side failure testing which will be disruptive and will prevent any engineering possessions starting till they have finished. The testing has to assume that the drivers statement is correct and even if the realys are monitored by a data logger in the relay room, whos to say there isn't some cable damage between the relay room and the signal which could have caused the incorrect aspect to be shown? To eliminate this possibility EVERY multi-core (a 48 core is the biggest we use) AND the tail cable to the signal head AND possibly the signal head wiring itself will need to be checked to diagram, have an insulation test done (thats every single core to earth and all the others in the cable) and a continuity test done. As you can appreciate if you have multi-core cables there is going to be more stuff in it that just the lighting circuits for T511, you probably will have track circuits, point controls & indications, other signals, etc and while testing is taking place none of these can be used. From my experience to fully test just a single 48 core multicore cable you are looking at needing at least 1-2 hours and that assumes you don't find problems and have to start diverting circuits. If you have lots of cables to test then testing can go on for several days until the signal can be restored to normal working - so there may still be disruption tomorrow. On the bright side in the 12 years I have been on the railway I have investigated loads of the incidents and in all that time I think we have only ever found one occasion where testing proved the drivers report to be correct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 The testing has to assume that the drivers statement is correct Presumably a video camera facing forward would be really bad idea/too expensive/waste of time/politically unacceptable? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted September 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 12, 2014 Presumably a video camera facing forward would be really bad idea/too expensive/waste of time/politically unacceptable? Quite a lot of trains do have forward facing CCTV cameras these days, which can indeed be useful in corroborating (or otherwise) what the driver saw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted September 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 12, 2014 I believe that the new batch of Southern Electrostars have forward facing cameras along with a low level headlight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted September 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 12, 2014 The only thing with forward facing cameras - the footage has to be good enough for the purposes you want to apply it to. For example if the footage is not particularly good colourwise then it might not be of any use if the signal is one of those "all in one" jobs as unless you can confidently see which colour the aspect is showing (and remember in the context of wrong side failures the bar is set high) all you can say is the signal was lit. If on the other hand its a traditional 4 aspect head with 4 individual aspects then if you can see the single yellow aspect lit and the techs prove that that aspect had a yellow lens then it would speed up the investigation and narrow down the scope of testing slightly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted September 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 12, 2014 I believe that the new batch of Southern Electrostars have forward facing cameras along with a low level headlight. I believe that is designed to look for track defects rather than anything else so a signal on a gantry might not be in the field of view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 There's a lot of us who call 'em "Notwork Fail", it's meant to be humourous as those of us who understand railways understand that often things like one-unders etc are nobody's fault as such. This afternoon, we have an "operating incident" of some description. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/82655.aspx Oh yeah, right. I forgot how much we used to laugh about that when we were out in pouring rain or falling snow, at the tail end of a 15 hour stint, trying to get things running again, or trying to help passengers. Just like when we were called British Snail or Failtrack. Really appreciated that guys. How many on this forum actually do understand how railways work? Clearly you and a number of other well-informed or industry/ex-industry do, but I am afraid the cynical joshing amongst that inner circle spreads easily to those who don't, and to their friends, family and acquaintances. And we wonder why people who haven't been on a train for years think railways are still basically rubbish run by morons who couldn't get a real job? Humour by-pass over...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Scott Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I believe that is designed to look for track defects rather than anything else so a signal on a gantry might not be in the field of view. Images from forward facing cameras have been used by RAIB to investigate incidents and the quality is quite good, certanly good enough to see a signal colour Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Scott Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Oh yeah, right. I forgot how much we used to laugh about that when we were out in pouring rain or falling snow, at the tail end of a 15 hour stint, trying to get things running again, or trying to help passengers. Just like when we were called British Snail or Failtrack. Really appreciated that guys. How many on this forum actually do understand how railways work? Clearly you and a number of other well-informed or industry/ex-industry do, but I am afraid the cynical joshing amongst that inner circle spreads easily to those who don't, and to their friends, family and acquaintances. And we wonder why people who haven't been on a train for years think railways are still basically rubbish run by morons who couldn't get a real job? Humour by-pass over...... As a mere amatur can I give you my support. Those who understand railway operation know that staff in the field are doing their best. Sometimes management suport seems good other times lions lead by donkeys seems an apt phrase. Reading RAIB reports seems to indicate some managerial failings esp in relation to record keeping and poor handover practices as staff move on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted September 15, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 15, 2014 Reportedly signalling problems at London Bridge this morning. Does any one know if this is part of the same problem last Friday or a separate one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZippyHG Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I was on duty in the box last night. It was nothing to do with Fridays incident. All testing revealed no fault with signalling equipment. Some of which will be sent off for further investigation. There was a track circuit failure affecting two signals on the down fast at new cross gate when I left. Don't know yet if anything else happened. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted September 15, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 15, 2014 I caught the FCC to Elephant and Castle this morning then did battle on the Northern line. At least I got some excercise walking down the spiral stairs there as only one lift in use to those platforms! So didnt get ot find out how much the services were affected into LBG this morning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Claude_Dreyfus Posted September 15, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 15, 2014 Not too bad in the end. Mrs Dreyfus gets in at about 8:25 and was pretty much on time. I am due to arrive at 8:41, but was 10 minutes late this monring...which is by no means unusual. Oh yeah, right. I forgot how much we used to laugh about that when we were out in pouring rain or falling snow, at the tail end of a 15 hour stint, trying to get things running again, or trying to help passengers. Just like when we were called British Snail or Failtrack. Really appreciated that guys. How many on this forum actually do understand how railways work? Clearly you and a number of other well-informed or industry/ex-industry do, but I am afraid the cynical joshing amongst that inner circle spreads easily to those who don't, and to their friends, family and acquaintances. And we wonder why people who haven't been on a train for years think railways are still basically rubbish run by morons who couldn't get a real job? Humour by-pass over...... I do appreciate your frustration, and yes, there are many factors which come into play, and many dedicated people who work till all hours to get it fixed. However, from a commutors point of view, the almost weekly failure of some piece of infrastructure in the London Bridge area gives a very poor impression... "Network Fail", "Failtrack", "Notwork Southeast", these are names born out of years of frustration at a perceived deterioration of service and a very real increase in cost. A level of service is paid for, and in fairness expected to be provided in the majority of cases. Signals fail, trains break down and situations out of anyone's control do take place; this is accepted as part and parcel of life. When the infrastructure fails on a regular basis, most weeks have at least one signal problem at London Bridge, general acceptance wears thin, the excuses carry less weight and the perception of poor management and yes (I'm afraid) poor workmanship takes hold. Justified or not, that is how it is interpreted. In fairness, you are not alone in your frustration over the public perception of your employer or your industry... Both my wife and I work in financial services...and both in the City. Neither of us have had any involvement with the selling of policies, or the speculation of assets or anything else which lead to the financial crash; nether of us receive a bonus, yet we [those who work in banks, insurance companies etc.] all seem to be tarred with the same brush..."opportunists", "crooks", "parasites" etc. I see it all the time, including on this forum I'm sorry to say. Is it fair? No...but there is a minority who have created this impression of a whole industry, and we have to live with that. Do I have a problem with it? Well, lets just say you get used to it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted September 15, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 15, 2014 Remember back to the BR days where the BR sandwich got a lot of bad publicity? I dont ever recall having a bad one, although I was on a tight budget in those days! I still wish we had the old BR toasted sandwiches that I used to occassionally get from the buffet of a CIG on the Brighton mainline - they were great!! I do know quite a few railway and ex railway people who also use those 'Network Fail' type phrases so its not just the general public. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted September 15, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 15, 2014 I do know quite a few railway and ex railway people who also use those 'Network Fail' type phrases so its not just the general public. I think its one of those things that while within the industy we like to moan about the percieved failings of other departments / companies / contractors compared to our own particular depot (and most people will take it in the sprit its offered and respond in kind) tolerance of such behaviour stops outside the factory gates so to speak. So when it comes to members of the public / politicians / civil servants most railway workers do very often get offended their employer being refereed to as Notwork Fail, etc and the implication that the company and by extension the people on the ground who actually make things happen day in day out couldn't care less about passengers / traveller / consumers (or whatever else the PR people want to call them this week) when the opposite is overwhelmingly the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I think its one of those things that while within the industy we like to moan about the percieved failings of other departments / companies / contractors compared to our own particular depot (and most people will take it in the sprit its offered and respond in kind) tolerance of such behaviour stops outside the factory gates so to speak. So when it comes to members of the public / politicians / civil servants most railway workers do very often get offended their employer being refereed to as Notwork Fail, etc and the implication that the company and by extension the people on the ground who actually make things happen day in day out couldn't care less about passengers / traveller / consumers (or whatever else the PR people want to call them this week) when the opposite is overwhelmingly the case. But you can't be too surprised surely? After all, the railways provide a service to their customers. And went that service goes awry so frequently, the customers will moan. And being" captive" users just makes it worse; we just have to put up and shut up. Presumably you have never slagged off a service provider, for example, a bank, and referred to them by a derogatory name (my Mrs refers to Shatwest)? Because if you have, then you'll be in a similar position to those of us not in the rail industry. Personally I've never referred to Notwork fail or anything else like it (or joined in with Shatwest); but I understand where it comes from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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