London Bridge re-development

[roundhouse]

This morning it took us10 minutes to get off the platform where our 12 car train comes in so a I am late into work and get criticism.

 

What if there was an emergency at the station. How would they deal with evacuating the platform.

 

Tonight a signal failure. Our train shows the late expected departure then disappears off the departure board.

 

I ask the platform staff. What's happened to it. The reply is.

 

'We don't know where the train is now'

 

There's often a police presence now no doubt due to a lot of disgruntled passengers.

 

We have another 4 - 5 years of this!!!

 

I love travel but hate commuting.

 

I overheard some London Underground staff talking about the new parade of shops linking the underground from the Shard. Apparently the developers want £80k per year rent for a tiny shop and not one has been let in quite a few months since it was opened, just three ATMs two two ticket machines that no one uses and a mobile coffee trader who has to wrap up warm even in the height of Summer.

 

Lost complete interest in the station redevelopment now.

[John M Upton]

I was working my first peak 'City' evening train out of London Bridge in four years tonight (I usually do Victoria, the coast, Arun Valley and morning London Bridge jobs) and got stuck in the middle of the mess this evening!

 

Couldn't even get on the concourse at one point!

[The Lurker]

The Charing Cross lines were up the spout (technical term ) last night as well. I was able to catch a train from Cannon Street, which was understandably crowded but also is slower because it stops all stations and loops around via Lewisham. A taste of things to come for me, come December. I assume there will be no changes to the timetable to give us more or faster Cannon Street trains.

 

One of the things I can't work out is what benefit all the Thameslink disruption brings to people who commute in from SE London/kent on the Dartford lines - or more to the point, once the programme has been completed, will the service be any better?

[cromptonnut]

One of the things I can't work out is what benefit all the Thameslink disruption brings to people who commute in from SE London/kent on the Dartford lines - or more to the point, once the programme has been completed, will the service be any better?

 

I'm not sure what benefit it's supposed to bring to those on the Thameslink route either, all I've seen so far is more fast trains to Gatwick (which is great if you want to go to one of the stations it stops at...) and an increase of trains overall which means when things go wrong as they often do, it gets worse quicker and falls apart faster.

 

The next "Meet the Manager" could be very interesting...

[bbishop]

 

One of the things I can't work out is what benefit all the Thameslink disruption brings to people who commute in from SE London/kent on the Dartford lines - or more to the point, once the programme has been completed, will the service be any better?

I don't think so, because the existing CX tracks will be dedicated to Thameslink.  There will be an extra platform at LB so all trains can stop there.  At the moment the constraint is Borough Market Junction, but I doubt if CX is far behind.  The problem at CX is that it effectively has 5½ platforms (no. 4 is difficult to access) so providing more capacity through Borough Market would merely gum up the terminus.

 

Bill

[roundhouse]

Again this morning our 12 car train came into one of the new but narrow (due to hoarding) platforms so you end up queueing at standstill about half way down the platform as passengers come on to the platform to catch the train we are all trying ot get off. Not only is the platform narrower but the people who used to go over the footbridge can't do so now that its gone, so theres now about twice as many people tryingto get all the way down a platform half the width of the old one.

 

Its quicker to walk down inside the train to the front although thats getting slower as more people catch on. However people boarding the train try to push past to get ot the seats as one person tried this morning but I didnt let him (he wasnt happy).

 

What I cant get my head round is that they bring a shorter train into the new full width platform adjacent. There was one of Southerns manager by the bufferstop yesterday who often travels on our service but it was too crowded to stop and have a word with him. Very few platform staff there today - think they all hide when our train pulls in now!!

 

In the new year we will get all new terminal platforms which will relieve this issue. However we will lose half our London Bridge services at the time we travel in the morning as the very few FCC trains we have will be diverted away from London Bridge for 4 years. As to whether we get them back once  everything is complete is another matter.

 

As Cromptonnut says, once all this is done in 2018, there will be little benefit for us as out journey starts at London Bridge and finishes at a station that Thameslink doesnt stop at (bar a few in the rush hour), Same for anyone on the South Eastern side who are gonig to suffer even more than us when that rebuilding starts in December 2014.

 

In the meantime season ticket prices will still be going up each year for the priviledge of all this hassle.

[The Lurker]

I found the draft Southeastern Timetable for 2015.

 

My journeys home from LBG are going to be "fun". At present there are three trains every 15 minutes from LBG for my line during the peak rush (eg 5.41, 5.47, 5.48, then a gap to the next iteration). And people tend to cram on to them. From January, there will only be the one (ex Cannon Street) and no increased frequency - not a great surprise but it's starting to bring it home to me what a pain its going to be. Interestingly if I want to get home from LBG after 9.14 in the evening I'll have to go to Waterloo East or Charing Cross. Good job I don't have much of a social life!

 

And shoudl you be wondering I work in Tooley Street, so I do want to commute in to LBG.

[roundhouse]

It was meet the (Southern) manager this morning at London Bridge.

 

I had a few words to say to one of the directors. He said that I wasn't the first to mention the overcrowding and safety risk on platform 12 when a 12 car train arrives in the morning peak. If there was a fire or other emergency there would be a risk of serious injury if there was a panic amongst passengers. There isn't an alternative official alternative fire exit either.

 

I did put a few suggestions forward which they say that they will be looking into.

 

Lets hope that something can be done.

[cromptonnut]

I had a nice chat with one of the Southern guys too - I do wonder how much they dread "meet the managers"

[roundhouse]

I had a nice chat with one of the Southern guys too - I do wonder how much they dread "meet the managers"

I bet!!

 

There were a lot of people waiting to talk  to them today. I know its not all their making but we dont get the opportunity to speak with Network Rail.

 

This week hasn't been good so far with signal failures, train failures (and I know it s out of their control) 'people being in the way of trains'. Another one this morning at Horley.

[Mike Storey]

I bet!!

 

There were a lot of people waiting to talk  to them today. I know its not all their making but we dont get the opportunity to speak with Network Rail.

 

This week hasn't been good so far with signal failures, train failures (and I know it s out of their control) 'people being in the way of trains'. Another one this morning at Horley.

 

I am very surprised that no-one from NR was there. When I was with Railtrack, then NR, we took every opportunity to join in with the TOC sessions. It was very rare we had a quiet morning or evening! 

[roundhouse]

I am very surprised that no-one from NR was there. When I was with Railtrack, then NR, we took every opportunity to join in with the TOC sessions. It was very rare we had a quiet morning or evening! 

 

I must admit that I wasnt expecting any NR people there and there were a lot of people this mornng so it would have been difficult to spot them in the crowd.

[cromptonnut]

There was a Notwork Fail person there as I saw the logo on their badge but they weren't connected with the redevelopment works to do with Thameslink.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

It was meet the (Southern) manager this morning at London Bridge.

 

 

...He said that I wasn't the first to mention the overcrowding and safety risk on platform 12 when a 12 car train arrives in the morning peak. If there was a fire or other emergency there would be a risk of serious injury if there was a panic amongst passengers. There isn't an alternative official alternative fire exit either.

 

 

Well, Southern have took a proactive stance on this on our train earlier this week. The doors on carriages 3 and 4 failed to open on at least two consecutive days, leaving people stuck for four or five minutes (at least one day the internal corridor doors locked shut as well). A bit galling as people from carriage 12 were wandering past as we were still stuck on an already late-arriving train!  Impassioned plea from the guard this morning...'Please do not use the emergency door release!'

[phil-b259]

 

One of the things I can't work out is what benefit all the Thameslink disruption brings to people who commute in from SE London/kent on the Dartford lines - or more to the point, once the programme has been completed, will the service be any better?

 

It brings indirect benefits (and one disbenefit). As has been explained elsewhere although it was considered, modeling proved that running Thameslink services into Kent via London Bridge actually meant less trains (to Cannon Street in particular) during peak times thanks to junction conflicts on the SE approaches. As to the indirect benefits:-

 

Firstly by providing two platforms in either direction at London Bridge for Charring Cross services more services can be run as one train can be loading / unloading passengers while the one on the other side of the island platform arrives / departs doubling platform capacity and therefore the capacity of the Charring Cross lines (note that even with two platforms in each direction its still the number platforms that limit the number of trains not the new twin track borough Market viaduct). Also under the old layout quite a few peak time trains were unable to stop at London Bridge as they used the through line next to platform 5, these services will be able to call under the new layout.

 

Secondly in the off peak period by removing the Thameslink trains from the tracks used by Charring Cross services you not only free up their paths for further SE services but also remove a potential cause of service disruption (trains running late missing their slot, infrastructure problems, ect)

 

The disbenefit comes from the fact that under normal circumstances (thats both off peak and at peak times) services from St Johns, New Cross and definitely the Greenwich line will run into Cannon Street - as to cross over to the Charing Cross lines will require the use of flat junctions across the tracks being used by Thameslink. Further out it not such an issue as the Tanners Hill flydown can be used to reallocate services from Lewisham for example.

 

I'm not sure what benefit it's supposed to bring to those on the Thameslink route either, all I've seen so far is more fast trains to Gatwick (which is great if you want to go to one of the stations it stops at...) and an increase of trains overall which means when things go wrong as they often do, it gets worse quicker and falls apart faster.

 

 

More trains (as you suggest) is the simple answer and while some of those will increase the service provision at Gatwick, not all Thameslink trains will get that far (e.g. East Grinstead services)

 

Before the London Bridge rebuild started Thameslink trains had to avoid London Bridge in the peaks and even off peak the maximum you could run was 4tph thanks to the need to cross over to the Charing Cross lines on the flat and share thet racks through London Bridge and over borough Market before negotiating another flat junction to get to the incline up to Blackfriars. There was no way this situation could have been improved without the current rebuilding - though as there were more terminating platforms the situation was mitigated by the Sussex services that started / terminated at London Bridge.

 

After rebuilding you will have 16tph in the peaks all of which will run to East Croydon and places south thereof made possible by having dedicated Thameslink tracks all the way through and no need to share or cross over routes used by Charing Cross services at any point. No only does this represent a significant increase in trains between London Bridge and East Croydon but because Thameslink will become isolated from the SE network then any disruption on the SE lines will not have the potential to screw up Thameslink.

[phil-b259]

In the new year we will get all new terminal platforms which will relieve this issue. However we will lose half our London Bridge services at the time we travel in the morning as the very few FCC trains we have will be diverted away from London Bridge for 4 years. As to whether we get them back once  everything is complete is another matter.

 

As Cromptonnut says, once all this is done in 2018, there will be little benefit for us as out journey starts at London Bridge and finishes at a station that Thameslink doesnt stop at (bar a few in the rush hour), Same for anyone on the South Eastern side who are gonig to suffer even more than us when that rebuilding starts in December 2014.

 

 

Seriously - I do have to ask just on what planet have you been living on.

 

THERE WOULD BE NO POINT DOING ALL THIS WORK IF IT WASN'T TO BRING A MUCH ENHANCED THAMESLINK SERVICE BACK TO LONDON BRIDGE in 2018

 

If there was no intention of improving Thameslink then we could have got rid of the Bermondsey diveunder, kept four approch tracks and 9 terminating platforms and not spent shed loads of money on anew viaduct over Borough Market. Improvements to SE services could continue - only a single extra island would suffice (to give two Charring Cross platforms in either direction). While you might like this approch seeing as you only travel to London Bridge there are many more for whom the provision of a decent Thameslink service is just as important.

 

Of course the new concourse is desirable anyway - and if you stop Thameslink going through then there will be lots more interchanging passengers, particularly as, to optimise the working of trains on the SE section the diversion of Greenwich services into Cannon Street at all times would probably have to go ahead anyway and increase interchange with the SE side.

 

FACT If you were able to get a Thameslink service to London Bridge before the works began, you will be able to do so when they are finished

 

FACT If you get a train that currently terminates at London Bridge then when the work is complete then there is a good chance that either it will be absorbed into the Thameslink network or that it will continue to terminate at London Bridge as now.

 

FACT Getting to this point will case major disruption and as we keep trying to tell you there in no realistic alternative.

[phil-b259]

What I cant get my head round is that they bring a shorter train into the new full width platform adjacent.

 

If it was done deliberately (as in its laid out that way in the signalmans simplifier - a wad of paper telling them where to route each particular train) then it represents poor planning and needs addressing. If on the other hand its the result of disruption or late running then such a decision (or oversight) is merely unfortunate. Without being able to compare the scheduled platforming arangagements I am unable to say which is the most likely cause.

[roundhouse]

Seriously - I do have to ask just on what planet have you been living on.

 

THERE WOULD BE NO POINT DOING ALL THIS WORK IF IT WASN'T TO BRING A MUCH ENHANCED THAMESLINK SERVICE BACK TO LONDON BRIDGE in 2018

 

If there was no intention of improving Thameslink then we could have got rid of the Bermondsey diveunder, kept four approch tracks and 9 terminating platforms and not spent shed loads of money on anew viaduct over Borough Market. Improvements to SE services could continue - only a single extra island would suffice (to give two Charring Cross platforms in either direction). While you might like this approch seeing as you only travel to London Bridge there are many more for whom the provision of a decent Thameslink service is just as important.

 

Of course the new concourse is desirable anyway - and if you stop Thameslink going through then there will be lots more interchanging passengers, particularly as, to optimise the working of trains on the SE section the diversion of Greenwich services into Cannon Street at all times would probably have to go ahead anyway and increase interchange with the SE side.

 

FACT If you were able to get a Thameslink service to London Bridge before the works began, you will be able to do so when they are finished

 

FACT If you get a train that currently terminates at London Bridge then when the work is complete then there is a good chance that either it will be absorbed into the Thameslink network or that it will continue to terminate at London Bridge as now.

 

FACT Getting to this point will case major disruption and as we keep trying to tell you there in no realistic alternative.

Since posting that, I have seen the proposed service pattern.

 

Based on those proposals, at off peak times and at weekends it will benefit us as we often travel out of Kings Cross St Pancras etc.. I am yet to see what the rush hour patterns will be. Heading South of Redhill off peak it would appear to make our journeys slower.

 

I am not going there again re the disruption as I have said my views already on another thread and we both disagree with each other and have no intention of going to war with you which you seem keen to do.

 

You will see from my posts today that I do try to communicate with the people that do run the services both in person and via other means.

 

Lets hope that they can make a small improvement with such comments not just from me but many others.

[cromptonnut]

Heading South of Redhill off peak it would appear to make our journeys slower.

 

... or to Redhill itself actually, because so many trains (including Thameslink) head down the Quarry line.

[phil-b259]

 

 

Since posting that, I have seen the proposed service pattern.

 

Based on those proposals, at off peak times and at weekends it will benefit us as we often travel out of Kings Cross St Pancras etc.. I am yet to see what the rush hour patterns will be. Heading South of Redhill off peak it would appear to make our journeys slower.

 

Lets hope that they can make a small improvement with such comments not just from me but many others.

 

... or to Redhill itself actually, because so many trains (including Thameslink) head down the Quarry line.

 

Yes that is perhaps a week point of the proposed service pattern - yet I can see why its been done. Crossing services from the slows to the fasts at Stoats nest / Purley introduces timetabling difficulties it being a flat junction with services travelling at line speed (90mph at that point) and all. Doing the same move at Gatwick (where the Express service finishes in the off peak) or Three Bridges is a bit easier as most trains stop at at one or the other and paths can be flexed a bit easier

 

Mind you from what I have seen of the draft proposals I don't think you will lose out on the actual number of trains overall compared to now (well - pre London Bridge works that is) but said trains might not allways be as fast as now and to get to the south coast a change at Gatwick will be required.

 

However until the rebuilding works have finished nobody is entirely sure of how things will pan out and there is plenty of time to make amendments - so keep the suggestions rolling in to the relevant bodies and who knows, you might get your wishes come true after all.

 

 

I am not going there again re the disruption as I have said my views already on another thread and we both disagree with each other and have no intention of going to war with you which you seem keen to do.

 

You will see from my posts today that I do try to communicate with the people that do run the services both in person and via other means.

 

Lets hope that they can make a small improvement with such comments not just from me but many others.

 

Its the tone of some of your previous posts that annoyed me more than anything. Most railwaymen (be they operators or engineers), whoever they work for want to do the best job they can within what are sometimes very constrained situations. For example the guard of the train whose doors wouldn't open was imploring passengers not to use the emergency door release not because they deliberately wanted to delay people further, but because the resting of such devices afterwards takes up time and could delay passenger boarding and the trains next departure which is important where platform space is at a premium. In such a situation the guard may well have thought they were doing the right thing - but in reality only caused problems. If so then yes, they need to be advised how to handle things better in future but that is no reason to attribute a sinister take to their actions.

 

Yes occasionally they get it wrong and yes sometimes the planning might not be quite right - but that is only human and when running such a busy system errors do happen.

 

I am pleased to hear you are continuing to provide feedback - very often people assume that because nothing immediate happens it is ignored when in reality its difficult to make instant changes when a system is under such pressure from many so many angles.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

 

 

 

 

For example the guard of the train whose doors wouldn't open was imploring passengers not to use the emergency door release not because they deliberately wanted to delay people further, but because the resting of such devices afterwards takes up time and could delay passenger boarding and the trains next departure which is important where platform space is at a premium. In such a situation the guard may well have thought they were doing the right thing - but in reality only caused problems. If so then yes, they need to be advised how to handle things better in future but that is no reason to attribute a sinister take to their actions.

 

Yes occasionally they get it wrong and yes sometimes the planning might not be quite right - but that is only human and when running such a busy system errors do happen.

 

 

That was my comment, and was more of a light-hearted observation (based on the suggestion of a restriction of passenger numbers on the crowded platform in an earlier post) than a criticism of the guard or his actions. There was nothing wrong with what he said, especially in view of the fact someone did use the emergency door release on (I think) Monday when this happened...

[roundhouse]

Yes that is perhaps a week point of the proposed service pattern - yet I can see why its been done. Crossing services from the slows to the fasts at Stoats nest / Purley introduces timetabling difficulties it being a flat junction with services travelling at line speed (90mph at that point) and all. Doing the same move at Gatwick (where the Express service finishes in the off peak) or Three Bridges is a bit easier as most trains stop at at one or the other and paths can be flexed a bit easier

 

Mind you from what I have seen of the draft proposals I don't think you will lose out on the actual number of trains overall compared to now (well - pre London Bridge works that is) but said trains might not allways be as fast as now and to get to the south coast a change at Gatwick will be required.

 

However until the rebuilding works have finished nobody is entirely sure of how things will pan out and there is plenty of time to make amendments - so keep the suggestions rolling in to the relevant bodies and who knows, you might get your wishes come true after all.

 

 

 

Its the tone of some of your previous posts that annoyed me more than anything. Most railwaymen (be they operators or engineers), whoever they work for want to do the best job they can within what are sometimes very constrained situations. For example the guard of the train whose doors wouldn't open was imploring passengers not to use the emergency door release not because they deliberately wanted to delay people further, but because the resting of such devices afterwards takes up time and could delay passenger boarding and the trains next departure which is important where platform space is at a premium. In such a situation the guard may well have thought they were doing the right thing - but in reality only caused problems. If so then yes, they need to be advised how to handle things better in future but that is no reason to attribute a sinister take to their actions.

 

Yes occasionally they get it wrong and yes sometimes the planning might not be quite right - but that is only human and when running such a busy system errors do happen.

 

I am pleased to hear you are continuing to provide feedback - very often people assume that because nothing immediate happens it is ignored when in reality its difficult to make instant changes when a system is under such pressure from many so many angles.

Phil

 

I do know a lot of railwaymen, some for many years in all aspects of the railway and really do appreciate the work that they do and problems that they encounter and will take far more tolerance of problems on the railway than many others but there are situations that do get to me when we have delays for days or even weeks on end  and we have had a fair share of these from Redhill in the past few years. We have the upcoming redevelopment next to the station and ticket office at Redhill looming on top of the London Bridge rebuilding.

 

No one else in our office commutes on this route so they just dont get it at all  when there are problems

 

My emails to the relavant TOC is usually  to raise concerns  some they may or may not be fully aware of, so they can do something but many a time the reply is irrelevant or just no reply in some cases and in one  case I was told to write in again to a different address (not Southern I hasten to add).

 

People using the emergency door release annoy me aswell as that just delays everybody else let alone the hassle to the railway.

[cromptonnut]

One delay - caused by a nutter - this evening that can't really be blamed on the railway operating companies.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/london-bridge-evacuated-man-arrested-4205768?ICID=FB_main_mirror

[Mike Storey]

There was a Notwork Fail person there as I saw the logo on their badge but they weren't connected with the redevelopment works to do with Thameslink.

 

A bit harsh!? As ever, seems they can't win. I was in various operations, commercial and projects positions with BR, Railtrack and then with NR until 2006. When I, and my colleagues, attended such things, we were expected to have a full appreciation of any issues that might come up - reliability, planned changes, ongoing projects, recent major incidents etc. If we didn't know the answer there and then to a question, we would take details and follow up with the individual who asked. It is always worth asking or commenting/complaining, whatever the job title on the badge. Comments and complaints were always noted and followed up with the section/person responsible, if specific. General moans and groans, or indeed praise (there were some now and then!) were also noted but only in summary to the relevant team. I can only presume this practice has continued.

[cromptonnut]

There's a lot of us who call 'em "Notwork Fail", it's meant to be humourous as those of us who understand railways understand that often things like one-unders etc are nobody's fault as such.

 

This afternoon, we have an "operating incident" of some description.

 

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/82655.aspx