RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted March 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2014 I was there saturday come back from ally pally and wondered what it was for see pic 466006 (800x533).jpg Yes thats the markings. It changes colour further along the platform to blue IIRC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted March 27, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 27, 2014 I think that is to mark out where tactile paving will be laid in the near future? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted March 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2014 I doubt that they will be doing tactile paving to those platforms as they are due to be demolished when the through platforms get rebuilt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZippyHG Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I was there saturday come back from ally pally and wondered what it was for see pic 466006 (800x533).jpg I am not sure, but they are 4 cars long so it may be something to do with that, am trying to find out myself!? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZippyHG Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Don't forget London Bridge Central side is shut from 10:15 to 11:15 Friday 28th march to allow the required work to start the decommissioning of old platforms 12 and 13 and the start of the commissioning of the new platform 14 and 15! there will be no South London services beyond South Bermondsey to London Bridge either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted March 27, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 27, 2014 How do the lines relate to the position of the new under platform concourse area? - because if they are only 4 cars long and line up with the space created on the recently commissioned terminating platforms then I would assume the markings were related to that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think that is to mark out where tactile paving will be laid in the near future? They certainly look like the line for the tactile paving at Sidcup but given the expected lifespan of the platform, it would be strange if they were to do so. Mind you they did move the placement of the ticket gateway by the footbridge over Tooley Street to the Cottons Centre about 6 months ago, when it would appear that the footbridge itself has no place in the future of the station. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted March 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 28, 2014 A few shots from last night with track machines ready to start work. The old platforms 12 and 13 in their last night of use. The footbridge will also be cut back further aswell. Lunchtime today the old pltforms 12 and 13 were out of use and the third rail being removed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gribble Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 How do the lines relate to the position of the new under platform concourse area? - because if they are only 4 cars long and line up with the space created on the recently commissioned terminating platforms then I would assume the markings were related to that. As I travel through London Bridge station every morning I can tell you that they are used to assist station staff in guiding commuters to a less busy part of the platform to assist in speeding up the boarding of Charing Cross bound services. Commuters have a tendency to huddle at the Charing Cross end of the platform causing delays in passengers alighting and boarding whilst there are half empty carriages with no queues to board at the other end. I can also tell you that the only difference it has made is to the announcements by station staff. The commuters still huddle at the Charing Cross end of the platform. These are the same commuters that form an impenetrable wall on the platform when the train doors open causing passengers on the train to disembark slowly and in single file. Mindless, but then again it is 08:00 in the morning and before the first coffee of the day for most. *gribble* Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted March 31, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2014 As expected it was a looooong journey getting into London Bridge this morning. Firstly trains delayed due to over running engineering works at Three Bridges plus vanadlism somewhere was mentioned. Our train was on time into Redhill but then sat there for 10 minutes to let a late running Victoria service over take us. It was then slow all the way to New Cross gate then we came ot a standstill for over 10 minutes then moved up a signal and sat. Eventually we got into London Bridge about 45 minutes late. Track circuit failure had apparently taken out some of the platforms so guessing it was the new platforms brought inot use supposedly this morning. Track in the old platorms 12 and 13 appears tobe lifted now but those platforms are behind a new hoarding and the footbridge section linking platforms 11 and 12 is now closed and being dismantled. May go and have a closer look lunchtime and find out if the rumour that services will be delayed all day is true.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted March 31, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2014 This lunchtime I made a quick trip to the station. Still loads of services delayed and cancelled on the SOuthern and FCC services. Any way, here are osme photos of the new platforms. And looking back towards the concourse they have formed a temporary corridor from the new platforms Back to the original platofrms that are still in use you can see the now closed xection of footbridge that is now being dismantled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted March 31, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2014 Thanks Roundhouse. Does anyone know why the area from the ticket barriers to the platforms is so gloomy? It doesn't look like there's an office block above so surely it could have a glass (or other clear material) roof - or is it all temporary? How much will the electric lighting cost over a year? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted March 31, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2014 I think that once the temporary hoarding is removed it will be much brighter as the light will come through from other glass canopy and open platform areas. its cetainly brighter than the old train shed, although I do miss that. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meld Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I think that is to mark out where tactile paving will be laid in the near future? It's a system to try to get commuters to move down the platform, Via PA messages, from the Very, Very overcrowded Blue area to the Orange area in the Morning Peak, as there will be more space at the rear of the train ( if more that 4 coaches - obviously!! ). But since everyone who travels past london Bridge " SIMPLEY MUST BE" the first off the train at Waterloo East and Charing Cross, I feel that - whilst a good attempt at resolving some of the overcrowding/time lost problems at London Bridge( E ), the average commuter is an animal of stubborn and strict modus operandi when it comes to Peak Time travelling. MC Also See Gribbles Post, #159, for the same answer - D'oh! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 I'd love to see the markings they could put on platform 5 for those late night 4-car Thameslinks going south when 50,000 people try and cram into one 319! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted March 31, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2014 The London Bridge screw up continues well into the evening. Platform 11 still has a new 377 stuck in it from this morning from the signal failure. However most platforms are empty still due to this then this evening a power supply problem at East Croydon with most services still heavily delayed or canceled with no information till last minute as to whether the train is late or cancelled. Some one needs shooting for this mess. I am actually getting to the point that driving on the M25 is a much better option! Despite all the hard work by a Network Rail in the South West after the storms around here it's certainly not appreciated. Only the TOCs get anything out of this with no recourse for the passengers. From the e-mails flying around this morning the issue at London bridge is not a track circuit failure or signal issue as such, rather its the result of getting the negative traction bonding wrong. So a bit of a tech leson first:- On NR electric trains take power from the OHLE or 3rd rail then return it through the axles, wheel & running rails back to the substation. Because of the high currents involved (especially with DC) it is preferable to use not just a single running rail but both rails as a minimum, and if you can also use other rails, say the adjacent lines then so much the better. However..... Track circuits work specifically by having both rails electrically insulated from each other and each track section has to be insulated from the adjacent section. but as we have said above we need electrical continuity to get the traction back to the sub...... So what the engineers have had to do is install bonding - and on the 3rd rail section impedance bonds - to find a way of getting the 8000Amps* or so back to the sub when a train starts moving. Get it wrong bonding wise and either you end up bridging out track circuits (i.e. creating a Clapham junction situation) or alternatively blowing up insulated block joints (and yes I do literally mean that - I have seen block joints with great big chunks of rail missing) where the high currents have been such that they have been able to get past the insulations and melt the rail - much like lightening eventually finds the weakest path to earth - a bit of resin or plastic is not going to stop 8000A when it has nowhere to go. In the case of London Bridge the photos I have seen suggest that the bonding installed over the weekend was either insufficient or it simply wasn't installed right meaning that 8000Amps or so was all trying to get down a single cable - which resulted in the cable lug melting off the rail and the rail overheating so much it has turned black. So now we have a electric train sitting in the platform which cannot go anywhere and until it gets shifted the traction guys cannot start replacing the burnt out cable or perhaps more importantly finding out what bits of bonding weren't there when they should have been or if they are there what they are connected to. Of course one method might be to somehow connect the defective platform track to the adjacent one with very thick cables at the buffer stop end and hope that is enough to let the stranded train move. To do this though you now have shut yet another platform at London Bridge and gone from 5 to 4 platforms available for the regular service. We already know that London Bridge barely copes with 6 platforms and cannot cope with 5 so is it really worth screwing things up even more?. You also run the risk of getting the train halfway out and something else goes wrong and the throat of London Bridge becomes completely stuffed. Another method - which might be what they plan to do tonight - is to tow the affected unit (with said unit being completely shut down) out of the platform with another unit. Because the other unit would be outside the platform it would still have a good return traction path and hopefully could pull the dead unit out. The issue with this of course is it means you have stuffed up the throat of London Bridge while it happens plus such a move would probably involve making unsignalled moves (i.e. going up the down line) which further complicates things. Thus when you review all the options - actually what NR have done is probably the best situation under the circumstances. replan the service based on 5 rather than 6 platforms at London Bridge and leave recovery till close of service. The downside of course is that given London Bridge was under pressure with only 6 platforms ANY delay elsewhere is going to screw things up immediately. Dispatch issues, traincrew unable to take their stock out because they are sat on an incoming train waiting a platform, drivers delayed so much they are running out of hours. Crew not knowing which platform their stock is at because everything is being made up on the hoof as regards platforming, angry and frustrated passengers causing issues, trains so full doors cannot be closed, infrastructure problems at the likes of East Croydon will mean even the standby timetable will fall to bits and of course if you do get a infrastructure failure - like say a points issue then there is no opportunity to get anyone a 5 minute gap to sort it out. Rather its a case of manage with whats available and if it means certain routes can't be used tough - even though that will mean the plans for London Bridge have to be revised for the 50th time that night. Once the short term issues have been dealt with and 6 platforms are again available at London Bridge I'm sure there will be a full investigation into what went wrong. Similarly the possession overrun in Balcombe tunnel this morning will no doubt be the subject of serious investigations. However knowing what went wrong in these situations is rarely that obvious and is normally the culmination of several things coming together to create the perfect storm as it were. While naturally it is frustrating going round demanding peoples heads rarely works in this industry. In fact what you want is a culture where if something starts to go awry at an early stage, the people doing the work have the confidence to admit to it immediately. That way additional resources or planning can be put in place early enough to change things - but if the bloke in charge thinks 'if I flag this up now I will get a dressing down from management' they are less likely to speak up or reveal the true nature of the problem. NR are actually making some headway on this these days and there does seem to be a significant shift in culture at the top which is less geared to punishing people and more about helping people identify mistakes and helping the industry as a whole learn from them. * do the maths :- 6000KW = 750V @ 8000A or 25KV at 240A - guess what size cable return you need for each Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted March 31, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2014 Thanks for the info. Obviously what we were being told onat stations and online isnt what was really happening. No mention of problems at Balcombe at all for instance. It does seem odd though that on many Mondays after engineering work its us who pay to travel, end up with all the grief but our bosses are not forgiving for being late on so many occasions. They just see it as another excuse to be late, especially when they do not use the trains. I am dreading the next few years working in London as its not going ot get any better is it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted March 31, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2014 Thanks for the info. Obviously what we were being told onat stations and online isnt what was really happening. No mention of problems at Balcombe at all for instance. It does seem odd though that on many Mondays after engineering work its us who pay to travel, end up with all the grief but our bosses are not forgiving for being late on so many occasions. They just see it as another excuse to be late, especially when they do not use the trains. I am dreading the next few years working in London as its not going ot get any better is it. Thats usually because the people updating the station info boards and the internet are themselves lacking information. Take the service this morning - do Lovers Walk depot keep churning out trains for morning services? If you keep them all in the deopt and the tunnel issue is resolved you delay things for no reason. Send them all out as per the plan and the Brighton main line becomes one giant berthing siding. So the next question is why can't the guys on site provide accurate information - well if something is overrunning that implies something has not gone to plan i.e. it cannot be predicted so things have to be rearranged on the spur of the moment - be it a broken down bit of plant, an infrastructure train arriving late or simply a problem cropping up while carrying out the work. Its very easy to sit in a nice warm office phoning for information but its less easy standing in a wet tunnel with lots of noisy machinery going trying to explain whats gone wrong to someone who can't see it - or in many cases doesn't know what they are talking about. It may surprise some people that Network Rails 'Control' staff who liaise with the faulting staff, those who monitor possessions, etc are given NO technical training (they are also the ones who pass on information to the TOCs about infrastructure issues - although as most TOCs seem surprisingly lacking in infrastructure knowledge this is perhaps not an issue). As nice as 'control' are, sometimes it can be a real struggle to get them to understand either what has gone wrong or how long the issue will take to fix. Furthermore for all the time the guy in charge is having to talk to 'control' he is effectively being prevented from taking action to resolve the issue while the call is taking place. Sometimes this is of no consequence and time is available but on other occasions there isn't time and all control are doing is actually making things worse - although their intentions are good. Furthermore lets assume a revised plan or course of action is agreed -there is a very real risk that because it was an unplanned change further things may be overlooked in the rush to meet deadlines - lets say for example a broken rail has been sorted but in the confusion the requirement for the S&T to test the track after a temporary repair has been overlooked - and they need all the machinery to be clear of the entire track circuit before they can even start. Balcombe is also an area with a notoriously bad mobile reception - not an issue if things are going well but yet another problem if things are going tits up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted March 31, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2014 Of course one method might be to somehow connect the defective platform track to the adjacent one with very thick cables at the buffer stop end and hope that is enough to let the stranded train move. To do this though you now have shut yet another platform at London Bridge and gone from 5 to 4 platforms available for the regular service. We already know that London Bridge barely copes with 6 platforms and cannot cope with 5 so is it really worth screwing things up even more?. You also run the risk of getting the train halfway out and something else goes wrong and the throat of London Bridge becomes completely stuffed. Another method - which might be what they plan to do tonight - is to tow the affected unit (with said unit being completely shut down) out of the platform with another unit. Because the other unit would be outside the platform it would still have a good return traction path and hopefully could pull the dead unit out. The issue with this of course is it means you have stuffed up the throat of London Bridge while it happens plus such a move would probably involve making unsignalled moves (i.e. going up the down line) which further complicates things. If all they want to do is tow a unit out of a defective platform track, haven't they got something diesel-powered with some barrier/converter vehicles they can use? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 If all they want to do is tow a unit out of a defective platform track, haven't they got something diesel-powered with some barrier/converter vehicles they can use? Southern own a "73" but I'm not sure where it's stabled. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80358-new-livery-for-the-class-73/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 If all they want to do is tow a unit out of a defective platform track, haven't they got something diesel-powered with some barrier/converter vehicles they can use? The modern curse of coupler incompatibility. I remember going to the rescue of many a stranded VEP etc with one of Norwood's EDs or even a Crompton. The ED was easier but even with a 33/0 or 33/2 All you had to do was drop the VEP's buckeye and use extension air pipes. But things were a bit simpler then. Sincere apologies for having a bit of a "rose-tinted" moment... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I mentioned this to a few work colleagues that were affected by this yesterday. One of our senior managers responded that there's a lot of negative bonding between him and Southern at the moment. Took some explaining as to why his diesel unit from Uckfield was affected by an electrical problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted April 1, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2014 Southern own a "73" but I'm not sure where it's stabled. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80358-new-livery-for-the-class-73/ Couldn't they (have) move(d) it with a Class 171 too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Not sure if the stuck train was a 4, 5, 8, 10 or 12 carriage unit so a 171 may not have had enough "oomph" to move it? Presumably there's also rules and regulations about unscheduled moves and the risk of further chaos happening so if the platform was otherwise unusable - no 3rd rail and possibly no working track section indication - it might have been just as easy to take the platform out of use than attempt a rescue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted May 19, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 19, 2014 I was messing about with my camera phone just over a week or so ago one evening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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