Kirkby Luneside (Original): End of the line....

[uax6]

Jeff,

 

I'm interested to see the infilling stage, as this is the bit that frightens me (well ok, the whole of the landscaping bit frightens me!). Do you always <have> to use the plaster bandage? If you used foam what would you stick over the top?

 

BTW have you thought of appling some fire-proofing to the wood work? Lime-wash works very well (the underside of the staircase in this cottage was painted with it) and it is cheap! We wouldn't want all this work dissapearing in a (Very large) puff of smoke....

 

Andy

[eldavo]

... I'm interested to see the infilling stage, as this is the bit that frightens me (well ok, the whole of the landscaping bit frightens me!). Do you always <have> to use the plaster bandage? If you used foam what would you stick over the top? ...

Personally, as someone who moves layouts about, I never use plaster bandage but always use good old papier mache. It's cheap as chips and gives a very light structure.

 

Recently I've used cheapest possible kitchen towel soaked (or painted) with slightly diluted PVA. Two or three layers dries to a very hard and extremely light plastic-like shell. I also use scrunched up newspaper between the formers to get the shape while building as this can then be ripped out (and reused!) after the shell is hard.

 

Not Jeff style engineering I'll admit.

 

The shape of the valley up to the viaduct is starting to look very nice Jeff. Can you give me your timber supplier's name so I can invest in some shares?

 

Cheers

Dave

[MichaelW]

Andy,

 

When I've used foam I've tried a few methods, you can just paint over with PVA - which seals the foam, and gives you a reasonably firm surface to work on, but it is easy to damage.  Last one I tried was again painting it with PVA, then adding a few layers of kitchen roll (with more PVA between) - this seemed to work well, has given a hard shell that can take a few knocks, but you don't end up with as smooth a surface.  I've got some plaster bandage to try on the next module if I ever get time to. 

 

Jeff - if you're being reduced to soldering up the wires, does this mean something is in danger of moving?

[Physicsman]

In the absence of wood-cutting, screwing (steady-on chaps), grinding, glueing and general bunker mayhem, I went into the kitchen for an hour to do some cooking. I come back and... you lot have been busy. Duncan, the Lunesters have been secretly organising a sweepstake to see how many posts the thread will reach by the end of 2013. The current favourite is 7000! (Only joking, but I wouldn't put it past them!!).

 

Andy - I use masking tape to make a web over the top of the ply formers. Then liberally apply plaster bandage (modroc) over the top and allow to set. Then a top coat of filler (polyfilla clone). If I was using a polystyrene base I'd still use the bandage, but - as Dave has pointed out - good old papier mache works well, though it sets more slowly. I remember on an old layout using newspaper dipped in wallpaper glue! A slimy mess, but cheap and effective. Paper towels in diluted PVA is a bit cleaner - and cheap.

 

Michael - yes, there is danger of movement! If I could be bothered it'd need just 2 droppers soldered to the bus and a stretch of track would (SHOULD!!) be activated.

 

Jeff

[Mythocentric]

Hi Jeff

 

A quick visit (respite from a marathon 3D model updating session) and the hills are alive! Well almost! I wonder if Preiser do a Julie Andrews figure? Seriously though, it's all beginning to look very impressive and I'm sure you must be feeling a great sense of satisfaction with your progress! As for those two droppers, go on you know you want to. Actually seeing something running on KL has to be a great incentive.

 

Incidentally, can I add Noel Redding to the Lunester Bass Guitarist Hall of Fame? Anyone who could keep up with the late Mr. Hendrix just had to be good!

 

Regards to all

 

Bill (Well-Impressed Lunester)

[Physicsman]

 

The shape of the valley up to the viaduct is starting to look very nice Jeff. Can you give me your timber supplier's name so I can invest in some shares?

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Happily, Dave. It's the Old Lune Wood Company, run by Andy Peters (wonder what Andy will say). Actually all the wood I've used "fell off the back of a lorry"! You DO believe me Dave - don't you?  

 

Hi Bill - nice to hear from you. Irritating design (or lack of) admission.... the ONLY part of the layout I have to access indirectly is the first part of the main hillside near the viaduct. How do I access it? By standing on the river. So although I can climb up beside the fiddle yard, I can't properly, finally fit the last 2 day's work for a little while. I should shoot the layout designer!!

 

I must remember to get a couple of new jigsaw blades tomorrow. I've burned out the present one!

 

Jeff

[ChrisN]

I've done a couple more "centre-valley formers" - the 2 nearest the viaduct. I've also inserted a "guide" piece of 2" x 1" so I know exactly where the middle formers will go... as explained above, they have to be removed until I've built the first part of the hillside.

 

A couple of photos. 

 

100_2580.JPG

 

100_2586.JPG

 

I'm effectively out of timber now, so I'll go and order some more tomorrow...

 

Jeff

 

The hillside is coming on a treat but then I would not have expected anything else really from you.

 

Looking at the above photos I am a little worried that the last former is a little too high before you get the flat before the viaduct.  I am probably totally mistaken as my knowledge of fells and viducts is very limted as they do not occur very often in London where I have lived the majority of my life, and the only viaduct I see regularly is on the edge of Colchester.

 

Someone mentioned earlier that the sides looked too steep for sheep.  I know that you have slackened the hillsides off a bit but my first thought about it was 'Sheep tracks'.  I am not sure if it would work but running a blunt cocktail stick in the final fller and painting it a slightly different colour should do the trick.  You may of course have more interesting things to do on the layout.

[Physicsman]

The hillside is coming on a treat but then I would not have expected anything else really from you.

 

Looking at the above photos I am a little worried that the last former is a little too high before you get the flat before the viaduct.  I am probably totally mistaken as my knowledge of fells and viducts is very limted as they do not occur very often in London where I have lived the majority of my life, and the only viaduct I see regularly is on the edge of Colchester.

 

Someone mentioned earlier that the sides looked too steep for sheep.  I know that you have slackened the hillsides off a bit but my first thought about it was 'Sheep tracks'.  I am not sure if it would work but running a blunt cocktail stick in the final fller and painting it a slightly different colour should do the trick.  You may of course have more interesting things to do on the layout.

 

Last idea is good, Chris. There'll only be sheep, water, rocks and vegetation - and the occasional fisherman - in the valley.

 

Can you be a bit more specific with the highlighted comment. London or not, YOU see what I'm doing with fresh eyes, so your ideas are invaluable! I've already had some great (amending) suggestions from the Lunesters, so run me through it....

 

Thanks,

 

Jeff

 

Edit: I think I see what you mean. You refer to the former nearest the viaduct - the bit to the left of the flat (river bed) DOES look too high. If you confirm, I'll modify! Cheers! J.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Physicsman

[uax6]

Ahh paper mache, I remember doing that with Dad, we used flour and water paste mind....

I think I will try the celotex with the kitchen roll over the top, if it drys a bit rough it will be all the better...

I wonder how many sheep you will need to cover that small mountian range! Now heres a question: Would the sheep in Scotland ever be bought and sold in England? If so would they come down in the Highland Railway/ LMS double deck sheep vans?

 

I have wondered about donating some of my left over nudes to make a cameo on the fellside.....

 

Andy

[Physicsman]

Ahh paper mache, I remember doing that with Dad, we used flour and water paste mind....

I think I will try the celotex with the kitchen roll over the top, if it drys a bit rough it will be all the better...

I wonder how many sheep you will need to cover that small mountian range! Now heres a question: Would the sheep in Scotland ever be bought and sold in England? If so would they come down in the Highland Railway/ LMS double deck sheep vans?

 

I have wondered about donating some of my left over nudes to make a cameo on the fellside.....

 

Andy

 

Now then, behave yourself! Btw, would the nudes be socialising with each other or maybe doing a bit of "counting sheep"?

 

Cameos can be very useful, but aside from a group of walkers or some birdwatchers (maybe I could hang a OO model golden eagle from the ceiling), what else will be on my miniature fell (aside from rocks, scrub and light-years of stone-walling)? Grouse shooters - were there grouse on the fells? Of course.... a phalanx of trainspotters, come to KL to watch the variety of non-prototypical running... Pendolinos and Locomotion #1 (only joking).

 

Jeff

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Hello Jeff,

Must admit I've not read all the above posts regarding the valley sides, so someone may have already commented on this.

 

To my eyes the valley sides look rather too steep. Also there's usually some form of embankment prior to the viaduct itself. Yours goes straght from level ground at track level, straight onto the viaduct itself.

 

Hopefully your photo below, which I've slightly doctored,illustrates the points I'm trying to make.

 

Peter

[ChrisN]

Last idea is good, Chris. There'll only be sheep, water, rocks and vegetation - and the occasional fisherman - in the valley.

 

Can you be a bit more specific with the highlighted comment. London or not, YOU see what I'm doing with fresh eyes, so your ideas are invaluable! I've already had some great (amending) suggestions from the Lunesters, so run me through it....

 

Thanks,

 

Jeff

 

Edit: I think I see what you mean. You refer to the former nearest the viaduct - the bit to the left of the flat (river bed) DOES look too high. If you confirm, I'll modify! Cheers! J.

 

Jeff,

The viaduct appears to have been built to stand on a wide flat valley.  Now you may make it look alright by covering it at either side with the hill but I must admit I have never imagined yours like that.  (Well, it is your imagination that counts though.)  If the valley under the viaduct is going to be flat then the last former I think should be lower.  If you Google "Viaducts in England" you will see what I mean by the viaducts that I imagine.  However, halfway down is this one below, which is probably more like the one that you will end up with.

 

 

[southern42]

Evening Jeff.

 

Ray was laughing earlier this evening and I asked him what was so funny.

'I'm on your mate's thread,' he replied.

Another title bequeathed to said Lord Lunester - once I'd twigged.    

I'm honoured (to have you as a'mate') - not sure you're as fortunate. 

 

I've had another look at the photos of your valley.  I like the way the it narrows towards the viaduct.  Is this contructed or the way the camera sees it.  I hope it's intended because it seems to me that it'll give you a stronger sense of perspective and lead the viewers eye naturally down the layout landscape.  I'm amazed at how natural and balanced your viaduct already looks in the outlined valley, especially when you only have a few feet depth to play with - the art of deception at work.  Looking forward to seeing your progress.

 

Your Luney mate

Polly

[Physicsman]

The last three posts highlight the strength of this thread and why it's not just about me and my layout.

 

I think all three of you have made very relevant comments, and though I'd like to oblige you all I'm limited by the geometry afforded me in the bunker.

 

I'm afraid I'm going to have to be way off prototype, Peter. I haven't the space for embankments at either side and the area you've highlighted is roughly where the tunnel portal will have to go leading through the hillside into the yard. I wish I had a bit more space; I'm doing the best I can.

 

So I appreciate your comments, Polly. I can't say that what you see is what I had planned as it was Andy(uax6)'s idea that lead to the stream descending toward the viaduct. All I can say is that I've looked at hundreds of viaduct scenes and there are many similarities and differences. No two are exactly alike, so I'm playing the card of "uniqueness" to justify how it turns out!

 

Jeff

[Jason T]

I think Peter has hit the nail on the head Jeff. If you can fire up the jigsaw and add some embankments on either side of the viaduct, it would enhance the scene ten fold. By the sounds of it, the valley isn't permanent yet so I say go for it.

 

I also thought earlier that you really want to be painting and ballasting that section before you get too far with the hills and valleys, or you may struggle to do it later.

 

Sorry, meant to mention this earlier but have been working up in London for the last couple of days with only my iPhone to keep on top of the posts in your thread, and I hate typing on it with my man fingers, as I tend to press two keys at once, or the wrong ones altogether, which are then spell checked into all kinds of obscure words:D

[Physicsman]

Chris - that is a magnificent scene and remarkably similar to how I see the situation - with the direction of stream flow reversed ie. mine flows down the valley towards the viaduct at rear, and not from the viaduct.

 

I've always envisaged the stream flowing between the middle arch sections with the rest gradually being swallowed up by the encroachment of the hillside on either side.

 

I'll have a look at the Google search results. I think my "concoction" is going to please some and be hated by others - but, again, compromise plays a part.

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

I think Peter has hit the nail on the head Jeff. If you can fire up the jigsaw and add some embankments on either side of the viaduct, it would enhance the scene ten fold. By the sounds of it, the valley isn't permanent yet so I say go for it.

 

I also thought earlier that you really want to be painting and ballasting that section before you get too far with the hills and valleys, or you may struggle to do it later.

 

Sorry, meant to mention this earlier but have been working up in London for the last couple of days with only my iPhone to keep on top of the posts in your thread, and I hate typing on it with my man fingers, as I tend to press two keys at once, or the wrong ones altogether, which are then spell checked into all kinds of obscure words:D

 

Hi Jason.

 

I don't have the space to do this. The rail disappears through the tunnel at left of the fiddle yard within 50cm of leaving the viaduct. There are curved crossovers shortly afterwards with all the attached wiring. And I don't have the width to create a shallow valley given the height of the viaduct and width of the valley.

 

Thanks for the comments but I'm in a lose-lose scenario here if I try to do anything but what I'm doing now. The viaduct "embankments" are effectively the walls of the valley into which the viaduct has been built. 

 

I'm not resistant to what you both say, it's just that it simply isn't possible to do it in this case.

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Fair enough comments Jeff.

 

Might be worth having a look at some of the viaduct/tunnel mouth groupings on the Midland line through the Peak District. On that route there were examples of tunnel mouths and viaducts in close proximity which might give you some ideas.

[Physicsman]

Fair enough comments Jeff.

 

Might be worth having a look at some of the viaduct/tunnel mouth groupings on the Midland line through the Peak District. On that route there were examples of tunnel mouths and viaducts in close proximity which might give you some ideas.

 

If I'd realised I'd need more "valley" width I'd love to have made the valley wider and the viaduct longer. It would have cost me a few feet of fiddle yard. It's very frustrating because I don't like "making it up". 

 

I'll have "embankments" to a degree at the end of the viaduct, but they'll phase into the walls of the valley. Peter, you may not have read the previous pages, but what I've put across the valley is shortly being removed - so I can build the first part of the main hillside.

 

Please keep coming up with your suggestions - with illustrations if you can find them. Nothing is set in stone and I'm quite happy to change things if a really good plan of action is forthcoming from anyone. It's only a few hours work - and it involves wood, so I enjoy it!!

 

Jeff

[ChrisN]

Chris - that is a magnificent scene and remarkably similar to how I see the situation - with the direction of stream flow reversed ie. mine flows down the valley towards the viaduct at rear, and not from the viaduct.

 

I've always envisaged the stream flowing between the middle arch sections with the rest gradually being swallowed up by the encroachment of the hillside on either side.

 

I'll have a look at the Google search results. I think my "concoction" is going to please some and be hated by others - but, again, compromise plays a part.

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

I am sure it will work the way you imagined.  Will tou need extra courses of stonework around the viaduct as it embedds in the ground?

 

I am sure you can get away with no embankment on the left, especially as it goes straight into a tunnel.  On the images of viaducts of the few that show the ends not all have embankments.  If you wanted, you could try one on the right.

 

You were obviously right in only having one viaduct.  I do not think I have ever seen them in pairs and it would have had to be a flat bottomed wide valley for it to make any sense.

 

In the end it is your railway and you have to be satisfied with the end product.  There is no point in trying to please everyone else and being disatisfied yourself.

 

Finally, the most impressive viaduct I have ever seen is the LLangollen canel which must be about 200ft above the A5 and driving underneath it is amazing.

[Andrew P]

Happily, Dave. It's the Old Lune Wood Company, run by Andy Peters (wonder what Andy will say). Actually all the wood I've used "fell off the back of a lorry"! You DO believe me Dave - don't you?  

 

Hi Bill - nice to hear from you. Irritating design (or lack of) admission.... the ONLY part of the layout I have to access indirectly is the first part of the main hillside near the viaduct. How do I access it? By standing on the river. So although I can climb up beside the fiddle yard, I can't properly, finally fit the last 2 day's work for a little while. I should shoot the layout designer!!

 

I must remember to get a couple of new jigsaw blades tomorrow. I've burned out the present one!

 

Jeff

Dont tell people about the Old Lune Wood Co.       I DON'T PAY BRITISH TAXES  heheheheeeeeeee

 

can you believe it 27 post since I was on here at ten something this morning,      SEVEN THOUSAND,      easy peasy matey.

 

Old Lune

[Jason T]

End of the day, we are referring to actual locations on the S&C and whilst you are making a fine job of sticking to the look of the line, at the end of the day it is a fictional setting so who's to say that the location you are creating didn't require a tunnel right in front of the viaduct? To model Ribblehead to scale and accuracy, you would need to model long embankments on either side of the viaduct and I can't see anyone doing that!

 

Look at my layout, I call it Bacup but there should be junction where the mill is, the River Irwell should be where the road is, etc., etc. Very few of us have the space to model a prototype location accurately. I would still love to build a model of Sandside at some point but the Ship straight (pretty much the required scenic length required to provide accurate breaks for hidden access to the fiddle yards) is over half a mile long.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Sandside

[Physicsman]

Can I ask a really silly, open question here?

 

If you look at the photo in post 3438, above. Ignore Peter's green handiwork. 

 

Do people think that there is going to be a hillside in front of the viaduct, with the viaduct just sitting there untouched by the earth around it?

 

Because the idea is that the viaduct is an integral part of the hillside at each side of the valley. The hillside extends through the end of the viaduct and beyond. The formers leading up to the viaduct are simply constructs to allow me to build the hillside upto and enclosing the end viaduct piers.

 

Sorry if I've stated the obvious. I'm just confused with the talk of embankments - the viaduct is integral to the hillside, therefore the points of contact with the valley walls/hillside surely constitute an embankment as the viaduct was "built in".

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Comments, please.

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

Dont tell people about the Old Lune Wood Co.       I DON'T PAY BRITISH TAXES  heheheheeeeeeee

 

can you believe it 27 post since I was on here at ten something this morning,      SEVEN THOUSAND,      easy peasy matey.

 

Old Lune

 

Andy,

 

We are going at the rate of 200 posts per week. So by the end of the year we'll be near 10000, at current rates.

 

Especially if I'm being as "thick" as I obviously am tonight!!

 

Jeff

 

Edit: Andy - I didn't like to mention that you were the accounting brains behind Starbucks! That was quite a Corporation Tax wheeze you pulled there!

Edited January 24, 2013 by Physicsman

[Physicsman]

End of the day, we are referring to actual locations on th S&C and whilst you are making a fine job of sticking to the look of the line, at the end of the day it is a fictional setting so who's to say that the location you are creating difn't require a tunnel right in front of the viaduct? To model Ribblehead to scale and accuracy, you would need to model long embankments on either side of the viaduct and I can't see anyone doing that!

 

Look at my layout, I call it Bacup but there should be junction where the mill is, the River Irwell should be where the road is, etc., etc. Very few of us have the space to model a prototype location accurately. I would still love to build a model of Sandside at some point but the Ship straight (pretty much the required scenic length required to provide accurate breaks for hidden access to the fiddle yards) is over half a mile long.

 

Cheers Jason.

 

Key point though: IF I CAN DO IT PROPERLY - I WILL.

 

So please keep working on me if you think there is a way to achieve this!

 

Jeff

Edited January 24, 2013 by Physicsman