RMweb Premium Jason T Posted January 24, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 24, 2013 I think we all realised that the viaduct would be bedded into the hill or at least I hope we did! It would look a bit Hornby Catalogue if you didn't 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelW Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I wonder how many sheep you will need to cover that small mountian range! Now heres a question: Would the sheep in Scotland ever be bought and sold in England? If so would they come down in the Highland Railway/ LMS double deck sheep vans? Surprisingly few I believe - stocking levels on moorland was never that high, and rough moorland has little food available for most sheep (though some breeds (soay?) could survive on heather and rough grass). If you look at the pictures of the moors around the S&C, you don't see that many there. (The fields lower down though could be quite well packed.) An ex's mother and sister worked for Natural England (or whatever they called themselves that week) and bemoaned the overstocking that was still going on - and the numbers were very low compared to what would be expected in a field. Jeff, I've thought about this a bit more, and think there is no need for embankments - embankments are used to the point that the cost of providing the land and fill for the embankment is more than the cost of the viaduct. So where there is a lot of spoil available, or the track is relatively low, you would get an embankment, otherwise it would be a viaduct. For a steep sided valley, any length of embankment is going to be very costly - especially if the valley side is steeper than the fill can be piled. So given the relative steepness of your valley sides, there would be very little, if any, approach embankment. If you look at ChrisN's picture, the approach to the viaduct has no embankment - so I wouldn't worry about the lack. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium southern42 Posted January 24, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 24, 2013 Finally, the most impressive viaduct I have ever seen is the LLangollen canel which must be about 200ft above the A5 and driving underneath it is amazing. Going over it on a narrow boat is pretty amazing, too! Just watch you don't trap your fingers between the boat and the cast iron trough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted January 24, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 24, 2013 Michael, thanks for the rationale. I wouldn't have known any of that. Ok, next question..... Since my viaduct (definitely not Hornby!) IS built directly into the steep hillside, what features - if any - would be needed in addition to said viaduct/hill? For example, on the approach to the viaduct from the station (ie. from the right), would there be a heaped "spoil cutting" on the approaches? The ground is only flat at the moment as I've done nothing to it - it'll need something to contour it. Comments? Jeff ps. This discussion is fantastically useful. Cheers folks. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted January 25, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 I think it's the first time this week that I've got a post in before Michael..... Well, that was quite a flurry of correspondence last night. I think I even dreamed of viaducts and embankments! Maybe get my wood ordered today and do a bit of "hillside planning". We'll see. Who knows what suggestions will appear on here today? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted January 25, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Michael, thanks for the rationale. I wouldn't have known any of that. Ok, next question..... Since my viaduct (definitely not Hornby!) IS built directly into the steep hillside, what features - if any - would be needed in addition to said viaduct/hill? For example, on the approach to the viaduct from the station (ie. from the right), would there be a heaped "spoil cutting" on the approaches? The ground is only flat at the moment as I've done nothing to it - it'll need something to contour it. Comments? Jeff ps. This discussion is fantastically useful. Cheers folks. Is ther room to take the boards in slightly on the station side so you could have a short embankment there, changing into a shallow cutting towards the station itself? I presume that the boards on that side were cut the way they are because at the time you were still planning on having the branch viaduct too? Where are the formers for the edge of the station boards? Are they right on the valley sides? Edited January 25, 2013 by Sandside Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted January 25, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 Morning Jason - I've just put a cryptic comment on Bacup (prior to seeing your post)! I'm a bit puzzled - through ignorance - by all this embankment stuff. If the viaduct was built across a mainly flat area I can see why it would be necessary to have them. But in this case it's straddling across a narrow valley/gorge. So why would there be embankments when the viaduct would be simply built into the valley wall? I want to get this right, but can't visualise what it is I'm not grasping. Do you fancy doing a sketch and scanning it - then posting it on here? cheers, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted January 25, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 My below effort is awful and I'm not sure if it gets across what I am thinking, but if the brown lines are contours and the thicker ones are 50 metre ones, then at the edge of the squared off former for the valley, the contour would be dead straight at that point whereas if you could cut in slightly to the station board at that point (give it a curved edge or even cut in slightly to the track bed) then the valley on that side could be slacker, you'd lose the straight contour line, etc, and the approach to the viaduct on the right hand side could be on a short embankment until the railway level meets the contour. I feel really guilty throwing this in the mix at this point but I hope it is proving to be thought provoking, useful and aiding discussion. Cheers, Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I've done a couple more "centre-valley formers" - the 2 nearest the viaduct. I've also inserted a "guide" piece of 2" x 1" so I know exactly where the middle formers will go... as explained above, they have to be removed until I've built the first part of the hillside. A couple of photos. 100_2580.JPG 100_2586.JPG I'm effectively out of timber now, so I'll go and order some more tomorrow... Jeff Hi Jeff Love the viaduct very S&Cish, but, from a practical point of view can you reach the viaduct if something derails on it or have I missed somethong inprevious posts? the law of s*d dictates if something is going to derail it will do so in the most inacessible place. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted January 25, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 Jason - no need to feel guilty. This is good - if it improves things in any way I'm grateful. I've enclosed a picture. Is this what you're thinking - the black hatched area is the embankment. The green is a less steep link to the existing, steeper orange hill-fall. Am I getting there? Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted January 25, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 Hi Jeff Love the viaduct very S&Cish, but, from a practical point of view can you reach the viaduct if something derails on it or have I missed somethong inprevious posts? the law of s*d dictates if something is going to derail it will do so in the most inacessible place. Ian Hi Ian, If you have a look in the previous post you'll see there is access in the corner - I've left a space of about 2' x 2'. So I can get to the rear of the viaduct with no problem... If you have a look at page 53, post 1319 you'll see a Jubilee loco on the viaduct. That photo was taken from the access hole. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted January 25, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 Spot on Jeff. I didn't realise that the baseboard edge was already cut in so it looks like you had the same thought already. Cut it in further towards the viaduct on both sides as you have marked, and it would allow a short embankment. Looks like it would be easy enough to do as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted January 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Jeff, What Peter (post 3445) was alluding to is Headstone viaduct and tunnel in Monsal Dale on the former Midland line to Manchester. The tunnel mouth and start of the viaduct are in very close proximity. I would have put up some pics from Google but I didn't want to infringe copyright, but there are plenty on there for you to look at. Edited January 25, 2013 by Rowsley17D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted January 25, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 Spot on Jeff. I didn't realise that the baseboard edge was already cut in so it looks like you had the same thought already. Cut it in further towards the viaduct on both sides as you have marked, and it would allow a short embankment. Looks like it would be easy enough to do as well. Phew - that's a relief! Your "contour diagram" actually made more sense than you thought it would! I quite like the idea - I'll be in the bunker later and see what can be done. Jeff, What Peter (post 3445) was alluding to is Headstone viaduct and tunnel in Monsal Dale on the former Midland line to Manchester. The tunnel mouth and start of the viaduct are in very close proximity. I would have put up some pics from Google but I didn't want to infringe copyright, but there are plenty on there for you to look at. Thanks Jonathan. I'll have a look at that. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted January 25, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 Phew - that's a relief! Your "contour diagram" actually made more sense than you thought it would! As you can probably guess, I have a love of maps, especially 1:25000 OS ones When I used to work in IBM at the South Bank office, many was the lunchtime that a colleague and I would walk over to Stanfords Map shop over in Covent Garden and spend a happy hour looking at all the fantastic maps. Sad? Me? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelW Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I think it's the first time this week that I've got a post in before Michael..... Well, that was quite a flurry of correspondence last night. I think I even dreamed of viaducts and embankments! Maybe get my wood ordered today and do a bit of "hillside planning". We'll see. Who knows what suggestions will appear on here today? Jeff Well, I decided I ought to do some reading up for my board meeting this weekend before work, rather than looking on here... I've drawn up a diagram too, but gmail seems to think I'm spamming myself when I try to send a picture of it from my phone. If it arrives I'll add it on here... Essentially, I was trying to show the same thing that Sandside did - but from side on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Good Morning YOUNG Jeff, If I were doing (which of corse I am not) this I think I would assume that the hill on the right was actuall a bit higher than the track bed, i.e as it is on the left necessitating the tunnel mouth. I would then have a smal cutting leading to the station with the hill going up a bit higher again behind that area to show the hill was actually leveling out beyond the tracks. and the railway placed into a shallow cutting for cost reasons and this would give good reason for NO EMBANKMENT as on the tunnel side. I would do the cutting side about 2 inches high on the inside and 3 to 3 and a bit at the other side of the track to exagerate the slope of the hill up and away from the viewing area. I would then drop it down level into the Station area BUT with a couple of higher bits as a backdrop. I hope this is of some help Troublesome Lune Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelW Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Right, Gmail has finally decided to let me show you this... What I understand you are proposing is that the ground level follows the solid line marked "apparent ground level". I (and I think the others) were expecting a ground level more along the line of the dashed line. So rather than the viaduct sprouting from the hillside immediately, there would be some form of embankment - be it spoil built, or masonry. It doesn't have to be very long, but I think there would be something there. The most dramatic example of a viaduct sprouting from a hillside I can think of is the Landwasser Viaduct (Swiss Railways) - where the line emerges from a tunnel in a cliff face straight onto the viaduct. Otherwise, they all have at least a little approach bank. Again, the cost of a low arch is more than just building two walls and filling the space between. If you look at the headstone viaduct (see this picture) you can see clearly that the viaduct has been built and spoil tipped to form the embankments up to it. (This picture also rather nicely illustrates my earlier comment about the area required by such an embankment, and the slope that it forms.) This picture is a nice view of the tunnel mouth from the viaduct... Edit as RMWeb decided not to show the picture first time... Edited January 25, 2013 by MichaelW Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted January 25, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 Young? I wish! Thanks Andy. I'm going into the bunker this afternoon with all the ideas we've discussed on the last 2 pages and that "fresh pair of eyes" you referred to. The available space leads to compromises, which can be frustrating. I ought to do some more wiring, but sitting under the boards when its cool isn't as appealing as actively cutting bits of wood etc. As you would say... "catch you later"... Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted January 25, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 Excellent post, Michael. Very useful. Both yourself and Jonathan have referred to Headstone. The proximity of the tunnel mouth to the viaduct is good news, as I can cite a prototype if anyone complains about what I've done! I can see the embankment set-up at Headstone. If I had the space I could do that, too. however, I quite agree with the dotted line in your drawing. It ties-in with what I was discussing with Jason. It may be possible to trim a few inches off the boards at both end of the viaduct to create a mini-embankment. We'll see. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Hi Jeff. This thread is moving very fast, I cant keep up. I was going to post last night but was a bit busy laying track, so thought i'd do it this morning. Not sure it's relevent now as you're another page on and probably cutting wood as I type. Going back a page, I like Peters suggestion in post 3438. Cutting back the hillside a bit will allow you to model the embankment spoil at each end of the viaduct typically found on many viaducts in the S&C and open out the view a bit. I sure you've probably seen this link, http://www.visitcumbria.com/carlset/ribblehead-viaduct.htm , the first few picture show this nicely. But I'm sure whatever you decide to do it will look amazing. Keep the pictures coming. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelW Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Arten Gill Viaduct looks like a suitable prototype to emulate - the first photo on the linked page, right hand side - the gorge side slopes quite steeply, and the railway launches off the side without an embankment, just a bit of masonry to get from the hillside to the first pier. Lower down on the page you can see how spoil has just been dumped beside one side of the line at the other end of the viaduct - obviously they had too much of it round there to be able to use on embankments. Hope we've inspired you with all this Jeff. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelW Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Oh, and looking at that page again (it's a boring day at work), you can play count the suicide clouds - far more in the field in one picture than on the moorland in all the pics combined. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted January 25, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 Hi Ray, Thanks for the link. I modelled my viaduct on Ribblehead, so I've used some of those photos previously. but not all together in one collection. I haven't cut any more wood - I'm waiting for things to settle (to Carlisle, sorry!!) before I make my next move. Michael, The photos of Arten Gill are ideal material for what I'm going to do now. They tie in very nicely with what Peter/Jason suggested and which (from earlier post today) I've just grasped. The only problem I have is with the valley width, which is going to still have steepish sides. It may be possible to get some token embankments at each end. Yes, you lot have inspired me - again, and made my brain ache with all the possibilities! Good!! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelW Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 The photos of Arten Gill are ideal material for what I'm going to do now. They tie in very nicely with what Peter/Jason suggested and which (from earlier post today) I've just grasped. The only problem I have is with the valley width, which is going to still have steepish sides. It may be possible to get some token embankments at each end. That's partly why I picked Arten Gill - one side is steep sided valley - I think you could treat both your valley sides the same. Short masonry approach, 2 arches over steep sided valley, one arch over water-course, two arches over steep valley side, then onto token embankment into station. Doesn't Garsdale station start just off the end of a viaduct? Hmmm... Now I want to start playing with embankments and bridges, but I won't have time till next week Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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