StuartM Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 All I know is that when it does come, it will be an o-gauge loco for £169.99 So what if some of the rivets are in the wrong place Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDP4D Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 All I know is that when it does come, it will be an o-gauge loco for £169.99 So what if some of the rivets are in the wrong place Couldn't agree more, and for what it's worth for £169.99 or even £219.99 I highly doubt I can get an RTR Class 08 that looks like a Class 08. - I can have a go at designing one and then emptying out all the banks to get the 3D prints and everything else. - I can buy a kit for something of that amount, I can try and build it then add more and more costs for a lot of stuff with the possibility of making mistakes with the build. I'm grateful that Dapol are doing a O gauge Class 08 and I'm sure it will be the first go-to model for a lot of O gauge new comers (possibly me). It's some people who blow minor things out of proportion... With real noticeable problems it's fine. Show the CADs to a number of people who aren't 100% familiar with the Class and they won't see much difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave47549 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Couldn't agree more, and for what it's worth for £169.99 or even £219.99 I highly doubt I can get an RTR Class 08 that looks like a Class 08. - I can have a go at designing one and then emptying out all the banks to get the 3D prints and everything else. - I can buy a kit for something of that amount, I can try and build it then add more and more costs for a lot of stuff with the possibility of making mistakes with the build. I'm grateful that Dapol are doing a O gauge Class 08 and I'm sure it will be the first go-to model for a lot of O gauge new comers (possibly me). It's some people who blow minor things out of proportion... With real noticeable problems it's fine. Show the CADs to a number of people who aren't 100% familiar with the Class and they won't see much difference. Surely it is duff tooling that blows things out of proportion? Seriously, I've been following this thread but trying to avoid adding to it. I have no problem at all with what other people want from this model - if people want something cheap that looks remotely like an 08, then my 'local' model shop would have obliged as they were punting the last of their Ixion Fowlers for £150ish. For the record, this was to have been my introduction to 'O' as well. I didn't need bells & whistles, I would happily have accepted moulded handrails etc, just get the basic shape right & I would've taken it from there. My "I'm out" moment occurred when I questioned the bonnet taper with Dapol & was quoted dimensions taken from a drawing. Why would anyone quote paper dimensions when they allegedly have laser scans to work from? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartM Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Couldn't agree more, and for what it's worth for £169.99 or even £219.99 I highly doubt I can get an RTR Class 08 that looks like a Class 08. - I can have a go at designing one and then emptying out all the banks to get the 3D prints and everything else. - I can buy a kit for something of that amount, I can try and build it then add more and more costs for a lot of stuff with the possibility of making mistakes with the build. I'm grateful that Dapol are doing a O gauge Class 08 and I'm sure it will be the first go-to model for a lot of O gauge new comers (possibly me). It's some people who blow minor things out of proportion... With real noticeable problems it's fine. Show the CADs to a number of people who aren't 100% familiar with the Class and they won't see much difference. Exactly, and I'm not even a 0 gauger, but for £169 I've put my pre-order in this will be my introduction into the gauge I'm more interested in reliability than I am the position of a rivet or the taper of a bonnet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted August 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 8, 2015 Won't it be interesting to hear people crow if it has errors that they were right, oh and obviously prostrate themselves equally as loudly if it turns out good? People have had their input, Dapol will decide what bits they need to listen to and we will see what the first shots look like. Until then the roundabout of myth and muttering will no doubt go on and I find myself really hoping to see them produce something good and an equally long thread of self flagellation to say sorry to Dapol They're just models . . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Seriously, I've been following this thread but trying to avoid adding to it. I have no problem at all with what other people want from this model - if people want something cheap that looks remotely like an 08, then my 'local' model shop would have obliged as they were punting the last of their Ixion Fowlers for £150ish. Surely you are not patronising/insulting other modellers by saying they would accept a low-bonnet 0-4-0 as looking remotely like an 08? Les (who uses an 08 to pass off as an 08....) Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave47549 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Surely you are not patronising/insulting other modellers by saying they would accept a low-bonnet 0-4-0 as looking remotely like an 08? Les (who uses an 08 to pass off as an 08....) Les Well, it's got a cab, a bonnet (haven't checked if it tapers enough - or even if it's supposed to ) & coupled wheels. That's close enough, isn't it? ... & if I'm allowed to swap gauges, it looks more like an EE 350hp than the Triang effort did! Dave (who thinks the 'insulting' accusations are best laid at the door of those who happily accept any old crap & insist others do too) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 Gosh, this is getting heated and it's only a hobby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Gosh, this is getting heated and it's only a hobby. To adapt the old football quote - Model railways are not a matter of life or death - they are far more important than that! Seriously though - lets all lighten up a bit. I'm a guy with a 'dog in the fight', since we are soon about to release our re-tooled 08/09/13 kits but even so - I do think that all this speculation is a little unfair on Dapol. If its a good model then fine. If it isn't then many will still want it. We might even do a dress-up set for it if needed! Whatever though - it is the individual's choice as to what suits them. After all, they are the people spending their hard earned cash on it. You pays your money etc. Regards, David Parkins Modern Motive Power www.djparkins.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 Well put Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Having read the post from DJP, I think I'd save for one of his. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jintyman Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I find myself really hoping to see them produce something good and an equally long thread of self flagellation to say sorry to Dapol I agree entirely, but I somehow doubt you could have a thread as long as this one with compliments and apologies. As far as the Brassworks 08 is concerned, I thought it was a good model for the money, MMP did a detail kit for it which lifted it way up the scale too. To quote a friend of mine: "If you want perfection, you need to work in 12" to the foot" Jinty Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 So why so much interest and going over it again in detail? Because of others and the info that keeps coming forth. Hi With the delays, a minor change in details of the model can lead to missing a production slot with the manufacturer. In such a case that would seem to cover both details changes and supplier management. I haven't given any money to Dapol in 7mm yet (well, I did buy a wagon as a present for someone who had been down the mine in their youth that featured on the livery), but will do once they deliver. Similarly I have made no decisions on an 08, and won't until I see something more concrete (or plastic....) than some 3d computer graphics. An airfix style O gauge loco would be good. Depends whether the tooling costs would be offset by high enough sales. The main advantage of brass seems to be how relatively cheaply it can be tooled up (although of course there is the cost of any required castings). All the best K Good for you K, I agree with what you say by and large. Circling back to the Airfix type kit building issue. A mate of mine and I visited a great exhibition yesterday and we noted a young lady, who was knowledgeable and friendly who was making a cracking job of building some injection moulded 3mm society 12T van kits, ala, Iain Rice, she was carving off some of the moulded details and adding etch brass super-detail parts. Not sure of her age, yet my friend's girl is 11 and she was around about that age. I dont think that any older male modeller has an excuse not to have a go at kit building. But seriously it was great to see a friendly normal, healthy yopungster haveing a go at railway modelling. My friend then told me that in the local 'Hornby' shop kids were being allowed to build a 1:72 spitfire (for free) and two of his kids did, aged 6 and 11 did and didnt stop smiling for hours afterwards - never seen them that happy on the iPad! CME I have typed 2 replies that have been deleted as I decide against getting involved, but I am sorry you are repeatedly Dapol bashing. Throwing liable accusations about fiances around telling people not to buy products based on CAD images before an engineering sample, livery sample and retail product hits the shops. You speak as an expert because you have spoken to a couple of retailers and formed and opinion from their that must be heard and adhered to. I believe it or not have contacts and get a different picture. 1: Dave was full time Richard and Andy are part time so you are wrong that it has taken 2 people to replace him and things still aren't right. 2: Where are your facts on financial issues at Dapol as my understanding is that this is not true. 3: Some of the delays date back to the amount items announced by Dave and George, Joel and Co. have announced very little to busy playing catch up. 4: DJ Models, Hornby and Bachmann are all experiences serve delays in new products coming through not only Dapol. Bachmann even own / control their own factory. 5: I dislike the suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is a Dapol apologist that is rude and bully boy tactic. As a surveyor and CAD person with some knowledge of 3D laser scanning, I think it is very difficult to tell from the CAD cams as shown whether the body sides are right or wrong. There is far to much detail on the image distracting the eye, is the image rotated and set to perpendicular view or rotated by eye. These along with other factor's will deceive the eye in to believing the angle is to shallow or too great. It may be that the angle may be to shallow to show on the CAD Cam with all the other detail on but will be instantly reconcilable on the engineering prototype. I would wait and see if it is wrong on the EP then it will be open season but to advise against buying until then is Dapol bashing. Regards Dapol Apologist Hi Richard ('Dapol Apologist') I am not supplier bashing - I never have and never will, championing consumer rights from a basis of fact ISNT 'supplier bashing'. Even after awarding a £million+ contract to one supplier and not the other, I have held meetings so as to give feedback to the unlucky bidders as to why they werent awarded the contract etc etc. thus helping the supplier to develop and improve, which, if they are willing, is helpful for them and the buying organisation too (in the medium to longer term). In terms of contract resolution one has to use a specific set of skills re the suppliers' market position, the type of product, its risk and value assessments (and its importance to the buying company) and a buyer/negotiator has to be aware of all these aspects and more so as to be able to apply the appropriate strategy/strategies. In short I always have been, and I am always fair, perhaps too fair at times. Have you ever stopped to think if eg Dapol have been 'bashing' their suppliers? Eg by not paying them? For your information, my info isnt just from a cosy fireside chat with a couple of traders, but half a dozen traders and industry experts - but I have already said too much (you naughty boy you wont get me to reveal my sources!). I find it strange, incredulous in fact, that when one comments from a point of fact and concern for others and from a basis of first hand truths, certain elements get 'narky' one has to ask why? Shares in Dapol, shills, a board member of Dapol? I doubt if you were struggling, knowing Dapol they would rush to your defence! BTW I am not 'throwing accusations', I am writing from a basis of FACT, yet you are attacking me personally, when I have not attacked anyone here - I have merely commented on certain aspects of Dapol's behaviour - so why are you attacking me and accusing me of things, please DECLARE your interests and motives - is there an ulterior one? I have numerous friends who are 'CAD Jokeys' and they too feel the same way about Dapol's poor 7mm output thus far, put it this way, these guys work in F1, aviation and the motor industry as well as being modellers, doers and working on restoring the prototype. I endeavour to make comments based on fact - read between the lines and look back at a few of the 'Likes' and note who's ticked them. BTW - thanks for trying to shoot the messenger! The first batch of Terriers are supposed to be available next week, so we don't need to wait long to find out what Dapol have achieved. Surely it's best to wait and see what they're like before getting too carried away with all this speculation. My pre-ordered one will be in the second delivery, so I'll have the advantage of all the feedback from the first lot. Theyve been hit into the long grass - see my previous Post. I think, although Im not an expert on Terriers, that their faults have been well documented. I hope that the Dapol production Terriers will be made to the highest standards. Re the tinplate comments .I doubt few of us have had a better model railway experience than a tinplate layout in the garden on a sunny day ,getting the whole lot demolished by Britains guards cavalry ,Lone Star Americans and Swoppet Germans and Mum coming out with orange juice and biccys to round off a perfect day before spoiling it by telling us to pack it all away before Dad gets home .Its all down hill from there ...like heroin or HobNobs addiction . I agree. But things have, as rightly so, moved on and should continue to do so. According to this post there is a further delay . . . . http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87122-Dapol-o-gauge-terrier/?p=1977595 . Bingo - as I said hit into the long grass as I mentioned last week. All I know is that when it does come, it will be an o-gauge loco for £169.99 So what if some of the rivets are in the wrong place I hope they include all the nuts and bolts when next you buy a car - mind you if its made in China and cheap, dont suppose that it will matter LOL! Stay safe!! Surely it is duff tooling that blows things out of proportion? Seriously, I've been following this thread but trying to avoid adding to it. I have no problem at all with what other people want from this model - if people want something cheap that looks remotely like an 08, then my 'local' model shop would have obliged as they were punting the last of their Ixion Fowlers for £150ish. For the record, this was to have been my introduction to 'O' as well. I didn't need bells & whistles, I would happily have accepted moulded handrails etc, just get the basic shape right & I would've taken it from there. My "I'm out" moment occurred when I questioned the bonnet taper with Dapol & was quoted dimensions taken from a drawing. Why would anyone quote paper dimensions when they allegedly have laser scans to work from? What is it that Dave Jones mentioned? Measure three times and get the tooling right, but even then things go wrong. The tooling is costly so that's why it is not always viable to change. The Ixion Fowlers were being sold at a better price than that, but those models are NOT cheap and cheerful, they were/are VFM and very good, Chris Klein has a very good eye, is discerning and wants the best from his suppliers and, as far as I can tell, his customers too. Dapol are, IMHO, no longer subject matter experts and seem not to care about what their customers (or retailers) want? IMHO I dont think its a good thing to encourage Dapol to go for 'moulded hand-rails' like a naughty puppy they need encouraging to use the old newspaper on the floor and then learn to go outside Yes why would 'paper' dimensions be quoted when scans had been taken and supplied to the factory? Exactly, and I'm not even a 0 gauger, but for £169 I've put my pre-order in this will be my introduction into the gauge I'm more interested in reliability than I am the position of a rivet or the taper of a bonnet Im fighting a loosing battle here arnt I, is no one bothered about continuous improvement? Gawd LOL! Won't it be interesting to hear people crow if it has errors that they were right, oh and obviously prostrate themselves equally as loudly if it turns out good? People have had their input, Dapol will decide what bits they need to listen to and we will see what the first shots look like. Until then the roundabout of myth and muttering will no doubt go on and I find myself really hoping to see them produce something good and an equally long thread of self flagellation to say sorry to Dapol They're just models . . . There is no need for anyone to apologise if Dapol get it right, as I have said several times, I WANT Dapol to succeed in this venture. Dapol haven't apologised for manufacturing poor quality 7mm models thus far or for the way in which they have treated some. Besides as I would have said to Richard (from CRS), its business for Dapol, its a free-market, I am sure that they are big boys and girls and can take the flack. I can honestly say that there is no myth on my part - READ BETWEEN THE LINES. Yes as I have also said before its some plastic, with gears, wheels and a motor, it isnt life and death, yet the amount of, often undeserved, support Dapol get on here is a complete mystery! Traders are getting flack for poor livery application and yet Dapol are sat on their hands - what great customer service! Have Dapol apologised to traders and customers alike? What do you think? Like heck they have (to date).... To adapt the old football quote - Model railways are not a matter of life or death - they are far more important than that! Seriously though - lets all lighten up a bit. I'm a guy with a 'dog in the fight', since we are soon about to release our re-tooled 08/09/13 kits but even so - I do think that all this speculation is a little unfair on Dapol. If its a good model then fine. If it isn't then many will still want it. We might even do a dress-up set for it if needed! Whatever though - it is the individual's choice as to what suits them. After all, they are the people spending their hard earned cash on it. You pays your money etc. Regards, David Parkins Modern Motive Power www.djparkins.com Nice quote David, Of course its down to the individual. BTW from my POV much of it isnt speculation. As I have also said numerous times before, if Dapol gets the basics right then that will please most and a 'dress-up' kit will please the rest - simple and effective. A word of warning and wisdom to the wise - note how those with expertise have already been, ensnared/trapped and then driven away from these types of Threads by the fire wielding villagers. Fortunately most Posters are reasonable types and there is a friendly cut and thrust of debate and yet.... It seems to me that continuous improvement is no longer important or cared about in our wonderful hobby? I agree entirely, but I somehow doubt you could have a thread as long as this one with compliments and apologies. As far as the Brassworks 08 is concerned, I thought it was a good model for the money, MMP did a detail kit for it which lifted it way up the scale too. To quote a friend of mine: "If you want perfection, you need to work in 12" to the foot" Jinty I agree Jinty - yet Dapol are NOT innocent in all of this. Again as I said I hope that Dapol do produce a great 08 (hey that rhymes LOL!). There is nothing made by humans that is perfect, with Dapol I think that for me, its as much about how they go about things and how they treat people, trade and punters alike. As I always say its just a hobby, we are only playing trains, yet I have noted that many dont always want to hear the facts or the truth and it never ceases to amaze how often many people will have so much blind faith in a company or brand and I find that approach very disconcerting indeed. Kindest regards to you all whatever your point of view, CME PS sorry cant use many smiley faces as you have all used the allocation up for this Post up (I had to remove loads LOL). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianthesnail96 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Good grief man, put the internet away and build a wagon kit or something- it'll be more productive all round! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Good grief man, put the internet away and build a wagon kit or something- it'll be more productive all round! Me? If it is directed towards me - you could always follow your own advice - you dont have to read what I have written! And yes I do build wagon kits, locos, buildings, baseboards etc etc..... And if I am reading you right, you can have the right to reply but I cant? Geez.... CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 CME I find your reply plain rude, at no point did I insult you but did call you out. So your reply is bullish and rude. My name is Richard and on here I go as Tricky-CRS so do not appreciate being called Tricky-dicky-CRS. CRS stands for County Rolling Stock my model railway business. I do not work for Dapol, but do have business relationships with Dapol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 CME I find your reply plain rude, at no point did I insult you but did call you out. So your reply is bullish and rude. My name is Richard and on here I go as Tricky-CRS so do not appreciate being called Tricky-dicky-CRS. CRS stands for County Rolling Stock my model railway business. I do not work for Dapol, but do have business relationships with Dapol. Richard, I apologise if you found my misspelling of your on-line name offensive, however that was, in part, a genuine mistake on my part, as I thought that you may be someone else - with a similar MO and similar on-line name. I hope that we can draw a line under that aspect now and you can accept my apology accordingly (I have amended my earlier Post in accordance with such). In terms of my previous reply to you being rude, I dont believe that it was, in your Post (as quoted in my reply) you accuse me of being rude and employing bully boy tactics - I find that offensive and a personalised form of attack. Also 'Calling me Out'? What does that even mean? The point I was endeavouring to make, re references to Shills and Apologists, was the bizarre and often unreasoned level of support Dapol has achieved with some Posters, rushing to their defence. Believe me, when I write, that I just want others to see what Dapol is doing to a small, finite market-place a market-place which was saved by the skin of its teeth from failure by a band of true gentlemen, honourable fellows, who formed the Gauge O Guild. I care greatly about the hobby, especially 7mm and O gauge, and the market-place for these scales and gauges is small and any companies who endeavour to use heavy handed tactics are not welcome as it could have a detrimental effect on what is a finite market (I wonder how Dapol's inferior POW wagons affected Lionheart's POW sales?). I have heard from other similar companies - when approaching smaller established cottage industry suppliers - stating that; 'we will bankrupt you with our new product range, we will put you out of business' (in précis and not verbatim). That's not nice and is uncalled for, this isnt the City of London, thank goodness and ranges should complement or at least be segmented so that there is enough to go around for all. BTW the company who made that threat? No longer with us! To date Dapol has had an impact on the sales of better quality and better VFM products, true market forces rule in this world, the west, with its often misquoted and misguided monetarist values, yet most are skewed, to date Dapol hasnt produced a good model in 7mm. Okay 'so what' you all cry, indeed so what, setting aside the damage to a finite marketplace, on this Thread, we are people, human-beings, discussing and debating a piece of plastic with wheels and a faceless company, I havent launched a personal attack against anyone here. I have just stated some FACTs which, I have, as the messenger, now been targeted (shot) over by a select few, yourself included - in any other walk of life that's called bullying and harassment and I, for one, dont take kindly to that sort of behaviour. I have merely highlighted some facts, issues and phenomena which surround Dapol and this model (08). I have no business relationships with Dapol, or any other model-railway company, as I had already declared and I am pleased to see that you have now declared a business relationship with Dapol, which you had not prior. I find it interesting too that I sign off with genuine wishes for all, as an honourable fellow, after being involved in a lively debate, yet some have to make it personal - I find that most unsavoury, when we are just debating the merits and failures of a faceless, apparently uncaring company, and their output of relatively pricey plastic products. What I also find distasteful is the way that some, with subject matter knowledge, are targeted by a few specific types that accuse those with said information, of all sorts, whenever they/we raise our heads above the parapet, yet they, themselves, either have nothing worthwhile to contribute, have another agenda or other, ulterior motive, and often seek to lead and goad the informed individual to the point of driving them away/out, using whatever means they see fit. I do understand that written/internet banter, without facial expression and tone of voice etc. can be misinterpreted, I also see how certain people ignore the good (within my Posts and those of others) and focus on the bad (and before anyone jumps in, I have seen little good in Dapol's 7mm output thus far LOL!) in eg a Post. In this case, I stand by my comments - and I believe that thou protesteth too much! Back on topic now, and critiquing the Dapol 08, which will probably mean no more Posts until next August! As always kind regards to all whatever your beliefs or points of view, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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