O Gauge 08

[boxbrownie]

Don't panic Heljan are not that bad! Loconuts got it a bit wrong what I said on the phone last night.

 

Phew...........sounded odd, but then who knows eh, those crazy, cool Danes

[adrianbs]

Hi All        Post 202 sounds even more worrying than the previous one about January.   It sounds rather like the pretty coloured pictures with all the errors could be the final CADs we will see and will be used for the actual tooling. There has been no comment from Dapol about any revisions following the various criticisms and on past performance I would not be at all surprised if they go ahead "as is".  After all it has got the right number of wheels, buffers, windows etc so they can be almost sure of selling enough to make a good profit from those who will buy, come what may.  The delay and additional cost to satisfy that minute? number of rivet counters which is all most contributors seem to believe exist is certainly not going to improve the bottom line.  Those who are not satisfied can always buy a kit if they wish or possibly wait for a better RTR model to come along although unlike London buses I rather doubt the next two will arrive any time soon !!  This is a sad fact I fear and may well not be the last time by any means. 

      It is a great pity that Dapol are not willing to communicate on this forum although on this particular topic the posts by Dapol Dave, continually giving us fanciful release dates, proved less accurate than the projections by Tower models.   Very little other information was forthcoming and it very much gave the impression that he had little idea of what was going on at all, as was suggested by others.  As I have said before, elsewhere, if manufacturers use these forums in the best possible way, it will save them a great deal of time, money, research and tooling mistakes and almost certainly produce a far better product which will not be slated after it is released.  They will have to present the preliminary information in a different way so that it is easier to check, 3D perspective CADs with weird orientations are almost useless to check dimensions and relative proportion, good old side and end elevations and plan views with high resolution enable positive checking not just an opinion.  If I can't check the accuracy of these CADs as they are being currently offered to us, I rather doubt anyone else can. The Cab roof profile of the O8 is so distorted by the odd perspective it could be more or less inaccurate than anyone has so far commented..  We shall know soon       Regards  adrianbs.

[BR_Blue_1986]

Given how long it has been I do somewhat doubt their current time estimate. I do emulate the fact that things might not change though and agree the angles currently shown do make it hard to establish a good perspective of which to check angles/ sizes etc.

[Loconuts]

Don't panic Heljan are not that bad! Loconuts got it a bit wrong what I said on the phone last night.

Hi Brian, I apologise for the miss quote, do I have to resign now.

 

Loconuts

[F-UnitMad]

Hi Brian, I apologise for the miss quote, do I have to resign now. Loconuts

No you have to buy a Dapol 08, regardless of what it looks like, as punishment.

[Igor]

Don't panic Heljan are not that bad! Loconuts got it a bit wrong what I said on the phone last night.

  

 

Which bit? Cue, serious peddling backwards...

 

Hi Brian, I apologise for the miss quote, do I have to resign now

It does sound like a Emily Thornberry moment!

[Loconuts]

No you have to buy a Dapol 08, regardless of what it looks like, as punishment.

Only if they do a Denver & Rio Grande converter car.

 

Loconuts

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Are the Dapol POW's being purchased, as I have wandered around the shows I have seen large quantities of Dapol POW's for sale at huge discounted prices, a big hit for the retailers. yes Dapol have made their money.  Already the Terrier is being discounted and that model has not arrived yet.

I spoke with Brian Daniels last night about the Heljan set up and he informed me that the CAD's are being done in China and are then sent to Heljan for checking and approval.  Heljan do not have a copy of the CAD package and use a free downloadable viewer to look at the 3D models.  How are they able to the interrogate 3D model, you cannot do it with a viewer.

The trouble with 3D packages is you cannot backdate a model, so producing a model on a 2012 package can be viewed and interrogated on a 2014 package, however that model cannot be opened on the 2012 package.

What needs to be done is to convert the 3D model in China to a Autocad 2D drawing and saved as a 2000 version.  That way the drawing can be opened on any year version of an Autocad package viewed and checked, any changes can be made here and saving the drawing back as a 2000 version it can then be opened in China complete with modifications.  The 3D model can then be corrected.

The thing is a Autocad LT package cost just a few hundred pounds as opposed to several thousands of pounds for a 3D modeling package which has to be up dated every year. Simples!

I hope that by using this method of working will help remove some of the errors.

 

Loconuts

Hi LN,

 

According to initial sales of the POW's they sold well - until perhaps the Threads for such on Western Thunder and here appeared?

 

Of course Dapol have added to the 'sells well' with their own propaganda too.

 

It seems that Dapol have too much stock on the books - full stop - thus are not shifting 'units', make of that what you will.

 

With the CAD stuff (see below also), we did hear that Dapol get the Chinesse to do a lot of the work, 'whilst Dapol's MD sleeps soundly' (in précis and not verbatim).

 

What is it with certain modern companies and them always 'trusting' (or being lazy) when it comes to control of IP et al? Dont they realise that IP holds a huge amount of value within and helps them to make profits?? I wouldnt mind being a fly on the wall during supplier negotiations, I bet that the contracts, if any, along with confidentiality agreements are in favour of the manufacturer in China. I would have those tied up tighter than a ducks.....if it were me letting the contract.

 

ATB

 

CME

 

 

    :laugh:

 

(Speechless!)

Now that this issue doesnt appear to true, in the fullest sense (thanks for clarifying Brian 'D') - BUT as I said before, in an interview Dapol did say that they let their Chinese supplier have lots of control over how the models are made (whilst Dapol sleeps - in more ways than one, or should that be fiddling as Rome burns?!) - too much by the looks of it.

[The Stationmaster]

According to initial sales of the POW's they sold well - until perhaps the Threads for such on Western Thunder and here appeared?

 

Of course Dapol have added to the 'sells well' with their own propaganda too.

 

It seems that Dapol have too much stock on the books - full stop - thus are not shifting 'units', make of that what you will.

 

 

ATB

 

CME

 

 

If you want to see examples of Dapol 'shifting units' have a look round at Warley this weekend.  One source in the trade has told me they have put out a list of reduced prices for traders who will only be at Warley and it includes items he has had on order for some time but he has not been offered the reduced prices (he won't be at Warley).  While someone else has described it as 'a fire sale' - in some respects it sounds a bit more like a milk tank sale to me  

[CME and Bottlewasher]

If you want to see examples of Dapol 'shifting units' have a look round at Warley this weekend.  One source in the trade has told me they have put out a list of reduced prices for traders who will only be at Warley and it includes items he has had on order for some time but he has not been offered the reduced prices (he won't be at Warley).  While someone else has described it as 'a fire sale' - in some respects it sounds a bit more like a milk tank sale to me  

Hi SM,

 

Sadly I wont be at Warley but I hear what you are saying.

 

That sounds underhand on the part of Dapol, especially if authorised retailers have been waiting for orders to be fulfilled, of course it could also be desperation on Dapol's part.

 

If anyone sees the Dapol 7mm Milk Tanks for a £5 each, then I will have six or so (let me have Paypal account details and I will forward the money) - just for something to run whilst I make some decent ones from kits LOL!

 

ATVB

 

CME

[woodenhead]

I think a lot of the re-runs of locomotives in N has been to generate cash whilst Dapol get to grips with some of the new stuff.  I suspect a lot of the compromises on the wagons and O gauge stuff is again to keep a tight lid on the cost of production.

 

That said getting the basic shape of a model correct is a given that should not be compromised.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I think a lot of the re-runs of locomotives in N has been to generate cash whilst Dapol get to grips with some of the new stuff.  I suspect a lot of the compromises on the wagons and O gauge stuff is again to keep a tight lid on the cost of production.

 

That said getting the basic shape of a model correct is a given that should not be compromised.

By and large I agree.

 

I, too, believe in good quality Value Chain and Supply Chain mgmt. BUT let us not confuse those issues with Dapol getting everything that they have done in 7mm, WRONG (thus far).

 

ATVB

 

CME

[pete_mcfarlane]

 I DO NOT MAKE  an  ... LSWR road brake van ... or a 4mm SR brake van  

 

I would be rather nice if you were to do 4mm whitemetal kits for them. 

[Gilbert]

I would be rather nice if you were to do 4mm whitemetal kits for them. 

Smallbrooke do a very nice  resin kit of the road van

Chris

[Mike Bellamy]

Getting back onto the topic of the 08, a Dapol representative at the NEC said that he was hopeful that they would have a fully finished and decorated sample at the NEC next year (like they did with the beautiful Terrier this time) and yes they are well aware of the cab roof line issue on the latest CADs - although they may not comment here they do read what is said ! If everything is quickly corrected and they get a suitable production slot at the factory, it's just possible that they will be for sale before the end of 2015.

 

 

.

[JeffP]

We can only wait and see.

 

if it's any good, it will sell out very quickly.

 

if not...........

[two tone green]

It will still sell.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Getting back onto the topic of the 08, a Dapol representative at the NEC said that he was hopeful that they would have a fully finished and decorated sample at the NEC next year (like they did with the beautiful Terrier this time) and yes they are well aware of the cab roof line issue on the latest CADs - although they may not comment here they do read what is said ! If everything is quickly corrected and they get a suitable production slot at the factory, it's just possible that they will be for sale before the end of 2015.

 

 

.

Hi,

 

I did say before, that I suspected that we were being 'watched'   

 

ATVB

 

CME

[F-UnitMad]

Getting back onto the topic of the 08, a Dapol representative at the NEC said that he was hopeful that they would have a fully finished and decorated sample at the NEC next year (like they did with the beautiful Terrier this time) and yes they are well aware of the cab roof line issue on the latest CADs - although they may not comment here they do read what is said ! If everything is quickly corrected and they get a suitable production slot at the factory, it's just possible that they will be for sale before the end of 2015.  .

Glad to hear they are aware of the CAD roofline issue.

I sincerely hope they do get the 08 accurate as far as the overall shape is concerned, and if the price is kept close to what was originally quoted (or at least £200-ish) it will be a winner for R-T-R UK O Scale. I want a Blue 'un.

[Pannier Tank]

Glad to hear they are aware of the CAD roofline issue.

I sincerely hope they do get the 08 accurate as far as the overall shape is concerned, and if the price is kept close to what was originally quoted (or at least £200-ish) it will be a winner for R-T-R UK O Scale. I want a Blue 'un.

There's plenty of opportunities to get it wrong! http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/6622-cla

[F-UnitMad]

There's plenty of opportunities to get it wrong! http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/6622-cla

Yes, but those of us who cut our modelling teeth modifying & detailing Lima/Hornby/et al in the 1980s aren't afraid of a little plastic surgery Provided the bodyshell is basically correct, surely we can deal with the variations if required... & for the 08 you have provided a great Thread! Thanks for the link!

[Pannier Tank]

Yes, but those of us who cut our modelling teeth modifying & detailing Lima/Hornby/et al in the 1980s aren't afraid of a little plastic surgery Provided the bodyshell is basically correct, surely we can deal with the variations if required... & for the 08 you have provided a great Thread! Thanks for the link!

As you say, providing the basic shapes ok and a good photograph is available of your chosen prototype, it shouldn't be too bad.

[adrianbs]

Hi All   For the small minority who might be willing to get out the scalpel, saw and glue, I hope some of the footplate mounted boxes are not moulded integral and preferably only clipped in place or spot glued so that they can be removed to reveal the correct areas behind.  Similarly  with some other variable items, this will mean the minimum damage is inflicted before new or different parts are added. The pretty Cads do indicate that some parts are separate  whereas the original all monotone versions did not show this.  I wonder how it was that the original CADs seem more accurate than these latest ones, this is not the first time this has happened.   Have the original files been totally lost and been fully replaced necessitating a new laser scan I wonder.   For those to whom any actual modelling seems anathema I would assume if Dapol make an accurate model of a version that has a large number of identical siblings, preferably in more than one livery they will be completely happy.  If the model then appears in other inaccurate liveries and with unsuitable numbers or details they will probably still be nearly as happy.  At least then, those  rivet counting 7mm modellers craving one accurate version of the model will be satisfied.  They will accept that not everyone can have precisely what they want if that is not the variant they were hoping for and this will be a significant step forward for Dapol.      Regards  adrianbs

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi All   For the small minority who might be willing to get out the scalpel, saw and glue, I hope some of the footplate mounted boxes are not moulded integral and preferably only clipped in place or spot glued so that they can be removed to reveal the correct areas behind.  Similarly  with some other variable items, this will mean the minimum damage is inflicted before new or different parts are added. The pretty Cads do indicate that some parts are separate  whereas the original all monotone versions did not show this.  I wonder how it was that the original CADs seem more accurate than these latest ones, this is not the first time this has happened.   Have the original files been totally lost and been fully replaced necessitating a new laser scan I wonder.   For those to whom any actual modelling seems anathema I would assume if Dapol make an accurate model of a version that has a large number of identical siblings, preferably in more than one livery they will be completely happy.  If the model then appears in other inaccurate liveries and with unsuitable numbers or details they will probably still be nearly as happy.  At least then, those  rivet counting 7mm modellers craving one accurate version of the model will be satisfied.  They will accept that not everyone can have precisely what they want if that is not the variant they were hoping for and this will be a significant step forward for Dapol.      Regards  adrianbs

Hi Adrian,

 

Interesting points - I too was wondering about the issue of whether or not the boxes would be removable or not etc.

 

I understand, from some time back, that Dapol were insistent on supplying the 08's as numbered, in the same way as their 'OO' & 'N' output of locos, there was the implication that, like collectors of 'OO/N', we would all buy more than one 08 for our layout/collections and thus collect lots of differently numbered 08's - this maybe true, to a certain extent, if Dapol produce different variants. But, I cant see that happening - in reality - for most modellers of 7mm. For one reason the model will not be a high-end so called 'museum quality' so most wont want to have one to run and one to display (or one just as a shelf queen), another is, of course, that for many modellers of 7mm, less has to be more. If Dapol get the 08 right then I see no reason why it wont sell in relatively large numbers akin to those seen by Ixion's sales for similarly sized locos and if they produce - GENUINE - variants, then perhaps modellers will have one of each. I hope though that Dapol see sense and follow Heljan's example (the only time that Heljan have fully listened to customer feedback and needs?) and leave the 08's UN-NUMBERED.

 

When we look at the existing market, for kits of 08's in 7mm, there appears to be 3 already - not sure if that will have an impact on RTR sales, possibly not.

 

ATVB

 

CME

[StuartM]

I'd much rather Dapol delay the release until 2015 if that's what it takes to produce cracker of a model. Remember the 08 will make or break Dapol in O Guage, if its a not a true reflection of the real thing they won't sell and people will turn away from Dapol. If its a good model then this is prove to Dapol that they can produce decent priced O Guage models that will sell.

 

So delay it as much as it required Dapol, but Xmas 13 would be good

 

Great Western

I was thinking about a dable into O gauge and thought an 08 for £180 would be a good start, then I read this thread and realised that its not only n gauge where the company has problems. The above post was made in March 2013 and I assume they were joking when they said 2015, but as they say, many a true word spoken in jest.

Dapol make some great models, just a shame they are so unreliable.