RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2015 No offence taken I'm not saying manufacturers don't make mistakes but I was suggesting patience in waiting for replies, via whatever means, before people start manufacturer bashing that's all Dapol has made howlers and I waited to order the Terrier until I saw a model I was happy to order. I know Adrian saw a lot of problems still but I can accept he's more fastidious than I am on that. I have my own pet hates and hobbyhorses but try to couch them in terms of this is the facts but do what you will with them. I have no doubt criticisim can help make models better but I'd rather present the fact with supporting evidence direct to the manufacturer at the same time as posting here and not assume they will spot it people get upset about things they're passionate about Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 No offence taken I'm not saying manufacturers don't make mistakes but I was suggesting patience in waiting for replies, via whatever means, before people start manufacturer bashing that's all Dapol has made howlers and I waited to order the Terrier until I saw a model I was happy to order. I know Adrian saw a lot of problems still but I can accept he's more fastidious than I am on that. I have my own pet hates and hobbyhorses but try to couch them in terms of this is the facts but do what you will with them. I have no doubt criticisim can help make models better but I'd rather present the fact with supporting evidence direct to the manufacturer at the same time as posting here and not assume they will spot it people get upset about things they're passionate about Hi Paul, Thanks. Likewise, I dont want or wish to fall out with anyone over some moulded plastic, a few wheels and a motor and gearbox - life is too short and it aint worth it. Also without tone of voice, facial expressions, intent etc. the written word can seem cold. By and large I agree. When I came back to the hobby and before, when younger, shape, form, colour (weathering) were the most important aspects of modelling to me, my old pen pal Jack Ray used to say something along the lines of; '....a recognisable model of the prototype running in a credible background...' and again, by and large I agree, models have to blend and fit in, without being incongruent. Yet when I came back to railway modelling standards had improved and that all makes us up our game and standards and I have done my best to follow suit. In terms of presenting the facts to manufacturers I agree, it's the same, with faults/defects, and IIRC, Adrian Swain has done so before posting here, there, and everywhere - sadly many 'modern' companies, even with a myriad of forms of communications, ie twitter, myspacebook, forums, emails, et al. often dont reply these days - which is rude, if someone has taken the time to provide a critque or suggestions a company should reply. IMHO those are the customers that an organisation should listen too rather than those who only ever click 'LIKE' or sing the organisation's praises. Having said that the silent majority should also - try - to be heard and not just those who have gripes. As we know in the world of military modelling and railway modelling et al. get five railway modellers in the room and one will have twenty different opinions! My main gripe is with modern business practices. I have told the story of how, 20 years ago, the music press (musical instruments) started to cosy up to their advertisers, the manufacturers and with one particular high spec guitar they all caught a cold, in that respect, I bought one of those super-Strats (as the reviews of kit and instruments prior had been fair and unbiased). In the end I got my money back and got to meet Jimmy Page's guitar tech who independently checked the guitar out and agreed with me, as did the retailer. At first we were all confused by the faults presented by the guitar, none of us could believe it, as it was, so we thought, from a reputable manufacturer and had received glowing reviews - but the reviews were biased in favour of the advertiser/manufacturer (we didnt know that in the first instance). The production quality was awful and these guitars were, IIRC, in the £500-1500 price bracket depending on specs. The manufacturer tried to 'buy my favour' with offers of more kit, meals out and factory visits, I refused and when I knew the guitars were no good, asked for my money back. Then others started to have the same problems or worse with their guitars. Sadly the cosying up of businesses has gotten worse and the poor old punter is cynically seen as the mug who just pays for the product or service. Not all companies are like it, sadly more and more are though. A rant on my part? No, just facts of life (to coin a phrase). If the roles where reversed and it was a.n.other Poster/Member who was in Adrian's shoes, then, I dare, say, if they couldnt speak for themselves and meant well, I would want to defend them also. With the 08 and the Heljan Warship, like you I shall keep my powder dry until we know more (ie not commit cash). As several will know, like Jordan, Phill Dyson, Ross Peacock et al. I fettle Lima models as they're cheap, yet the look of a model is important. If the price was right, with a little fettling, the Dapol Pillbox would be a model I could live with, yet it's too pricey for what it is, the 6 wheel Tanks? They, to my eyes, look awful and I would only want to fettle them (although they are too far gone to even fettle I fear) if I could get them for a fiver each. We all have to make those, 'Make, Do, or Buy' decisions, relative to our time, skills, budget and inclination as I have said time and time again, each to their own and I make no value judgements. I dont like the word CRITICISM per se, I much prefer, although slightly inappropriately applied, the word CRITIQUE (without a negative slant). However I find myself wanting better for and from Dapol. Indeed it is good that we are passionate and I believe that hobbies are good for the soul and mind, by and large. Kindest, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2015 They did indeed, sadly it seemed to affect Lionheart sales - which as I said is unfair, as Lionheart's were nigh on perfect and Dapol's were awful. Awful? OK maybe not perfect but maybe it was more to do with the range available (and availability) from both manufacturers that swayed people towards Dapol than LH? As far as I was concerned the only two wagons LH produced which I was interested in were out of stock/production when I wanted them.........so I went to a close alternative from Dapol. Just as in recently my interest has been peaked by a larger GW Loco, as I have finally given in to the ever present GWR onslaught! Only two weeks ago I looked on the LH site with a view to purchase the 45XX of some variation (not made my mind up yet as primarily all my life an LNER man), but shock horror no where to be seen on the site, not even a listing in the model section stating "out of stock" or " next production run XXXX", I am not slamming Richard for this but just an example of why maybe people didn't buy enough LH stock. I have spoken to Richard at a few shows and admire and lust after that kind of commitment to detail and quality in other ranges, I have now given in and decided "yes why not a small GW branch as well?" so I will be getting a Pannier and Autocoach (exquisite model) but really wanted to start off with the bigger "small Prarie".........which I guess will mean I will have to roll my clock back from my Diesel era main interest to Kettles, which in turn will mean I WILL be needing POWs instead of BR stock, and my first preference will be Lionheart not Dapol of course, it's all a matter of what the customer needs rather than what's the best model unfortunately. Long live "playing trains"........... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Awful? OK maybe not perfect but maybe it was more to do with the range available (and availability) from both manufacturers that swayed people towards Dapol than LH? As far as I was concerned the only two wagons LH produced which I was interested in were out of stock/production when I wanted them.........so I went to a close alternative from Dapol. Just as in recently my interest has been peaked by a larger GW Loco, as I have finally given in to the ever present GWR onslaught! Only two weeks ago I looked on the LH site with a view to purchase the 45XX of some variation (not made my mind up yet as primarily all my life an LNER man), but shock horror no where to be seen on the site, not even a listing in the model section stating "out of stock" or " next production run XXXX", I am not slamming Richard for this but just an example of why maybe people didn't buy enough LH stock. I have spoken to Richard at a few shows and admire and lust after that kind of commitment to detail and quality in other ranges, I have now given in and decided "yes why not a small GW branch as well?" so I will be getting a Pannier and Autocoach (exquisite model) but really wanted to start off with the bigger "small Prarie".........which I guess will mean I will have to roll my clock back from my Diesel era main interest to Kettles, which in turn will mean I WILL be needing POWs instead of BR stock, and my first preference will be Lionheart not Dapol of course, it's all a matter of what the customer needs rather than what's the best model unfortunately. Long live "playing trains"........... Hi BB Dapol's POWs were rather like my Skytrex 12T vans (of which I have two purchased out of their rejects bin), in some aspects works of pure imagination in terms of type/diagram Welcome to the GWR/WR fold, I used to be a LNER advocate, but the call of a GW BLT in 7mm was too strong I agree, Richard hasnt helped himself with some of the marketing, distribution and packaging of his models, yet he has his reasons I suppose? I also think that he may have been better off trying to occupy the segment that Dapol and DJM are aiming for with his locos, because in hindsight, Masterpiece have now trampled on his 'patch'. The Slaters' POW's seem easy to build? ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2015 I also think that he may have been better off trying to occupy the segment that Dapol and DJM are aiming for with his locos, because in hindsight, Masterpiece have now trampled on his 'patch'. The Slaters' POW's seem easy to build? ATVB CME I must admit I have not viewed the Masterpiece range very much at all, maybe I should....... I have several Slaters I made years ago and I agree they are lovely little models and easy to build etc, unfortunately I no longer have the dexterity in my fingers (due to illness) to enable an "unfrustrating" time assembling models anymore, I have still to reassemble my Heljan 47 I "customised" a few years ago but this annoying problem stopped me getting around to re assembling it, I will though soon regardless as we have decided to move to the SW now (hence the sudden interest in things GW). Toot, toot........... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I must admit I have not viewed the Masterpiece range very much at all, maybe I should....... I have several Slaters I made years ago and I agree they are lovely little models and easy to build etc, unfortunately I no longer have the dexterity in my fingers (due to illness) to enable an "unfrustrating" time assembling models anymore, I have still to reassemble my Heljan 47 I "customised" a few years ago but this annoying problem stopped me getting around to re assembling it, I will though soon regardless as we have decided to move to the SW now (hence the sudden interest in things GW). Toot, toot........... Hi BB, Bless you, I know the feeling, I have mobility 'issues' these days too, so have to choose my moments to do certain model-making tasks, now coupled with changes in eyesight - but we shall overcome, one way or another. Hence why, believe it or not, I am a fan of reasonably priced 7mm scale RTR, as some modellers havnt the time, skill, health or inclination for kits or scratch-builds. The Masterpiece locos look wonderful, akin to RW's, yet once again in the small pond, Masterpiece has chosen to duplicate some of what RW was doing, or just about to do - IMHO, Masterpiece should have stuck with larger locos, but each to their own. Is there anyone who can help you with the Cl47? Kindest, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted July 18, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 18, 2015 I am sure I will be able to reassemble the 47, it just needs to be done in very, very short bursts........and another reason I really want the 08 to be a cracker, as I have a Bachman BW 08 and MMP detailing kit with it but now thats a pipe dream, but loath to sell it until a decent RTR 08 appears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I am sure I will be able to reassemble the 47, it just needs to be done in very, very short bursts........and another reason I really want the 08 to be a cracker, as I have a Bachman BW 08 and MMP detailing kit with it but now thats a pipe dream, but loath to sell it until a decent RTR 08 appears. That's good news re the Cl47, I was just wondering if any of us might be able to able - but nothing beats the satisfaction of doing it yourself. Sounds like a wise move re the Bachmann BW 08 and MMP super-detail kit. I think all of us want better for Dapol - for a myriad of reasons - yet most of us are perplexed too! Must fly - too much on my plate at the mo! Kindest and best of luck with the Cl47. CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Flynn Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Looks like good news with the 08 on the way forward? http://Dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=information/news&news_id=123#.VbPqjrw54yo Hugh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted July 25, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 25, 2015 Looks like good news with the 08 on the way forward? http://Dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=information/news&news_id=123#.VbPqjrw54yo Hugh That sounds like quite a frank admission regarding the delay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I just wonder what "issues" there are in producing an 0 gauge loco when they have produced so many in the smaller scales. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyewipe Jct Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I just wonder what "issues" there are in producing an 0 gauge loco when they have produced so many in the smaller scales. Ed Well, you'd need a bigger computer monitor for a start... (I was going to say ruler, but that would be showing my age!) ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDP4D Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I just wonder what "issues" there are in producing an 0 gauge loco when they have produced so many in the smaller scales. Ed The packaging was all in the wrong size maybe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I just wonder what "issues" there are in producing an 0 gauge loco when they have produced so many in the smaller scales. Ed Indeed. I would have thought that they had all of the details for a long time, ie laser dimensions, CAD, prototype details etc etc?! ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I just wonder what "issues" there are in producing an 0 gauge loco when they have produced so many in the smaller scales. Not my field at all, but I can imagine there could be difficulties in scaleability of some of the technique that is appropriate for models up to OO size. Clearly the tooling has to be physically larger for an O model, and that may in turn require different production machinery. Materials choices and the detail design of the parts for satisfactory mould filling, release, and stability of the resulting moulding may require more design investment. The mechanical engineering becomes more demanding due to both the increased mass of the model and the more visible movement of the working parts. None of it rocket science, and the knowledge to solve these problems exists: but if a project is started on the assumption that present knowledge and technique is adequate, there can be a serious impact when it is discovered that they are not, and may mean that aspects of the project have to be restarted from scratch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 26, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 26, 2015 Issues can be all the extra details included because of size as each part requires design. Where'd they'd previously use one piece in smaller scales maybe having to split it up to reduce mould costs (bigger machines cost more so you use what you have). Weight issues, you don't simply scale up a OO chassis as it'd be very heavy and waste money. Lots of other things as well, Heljan are being similarly cautious with their first foray into 009 because they are learning too. Even 3D printing require wall thicknesses etc to be modified for changing scale. Looks like Dapol thought it would be a simple new model and I suspect Dave Jones leaving meant they had to go through and learn all that he'd done on it to understand why, this seems to have lead to a redesign from the experience of their new teams way of doing things. Better to stick to what you understand than gambling on what a predecessor did for an unknown reason as I don't think it was the happiest of splits at the end on the Dapol side judging by the cancelling of special editions for Kernow etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 This isn't Dapol's first O gauge product. Hopefully that's currently on a slow boat from China! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave47549 Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Indeed. I would have thought that they had all of the details for a long time, ie laser dimensions, CAD, prototype details etc etc?! ATVB CME From information given, I'm guessing no laser scans have been taken & they've worked from original drawings alone. There's an 08 just down the road that they could have confirmed dimensions on: http://www.nwrail.org.uk/ac101003_08195.jpg That shot is taken from platform level as opposed to track level & demonstrates that the bonnet sides are tapered & not parallel as per Dapol's CAD. I think that's just saved me £200. (Edited to correct my inept typing) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Harvey Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Copied from the Dapol website page. "We are now pleased to confirm that the O gauge 08 Shunter is now in tooling and we expect first shots soon. We would also like to apologise to all our customers for the unfortunate delay in getting to this stage of the product cycle. There have been lots of reasons behind this hold-up but the biggest is that in hindsight, we announced the model too early before we fully appreciated the issues fully involved behind producing the model. We are now confident that all is now organised as it should be and we do not anticipate any further delays." Doh !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 One big assumption that the body does not taper, why not wait for the model. It could be a simple fact that with all the detail in the back ground that the taper is not showing up on the CADS. The amount of money being invested in this project I suspect that they will have tried to get the basics like body shape right, especially as they have quoted the dimensions, that suggest they no them. If it is missing on production then I think Dapol will have done far more than shot themselves in the foot and will deserve the abuse they will get but to get it before a physical item even shows up is unfair, EP's soon then we will see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meld9003 Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 While Dapol have not replied to my email, their Facebook does say that they are working on new CADS showing the taper and also quoting the appropriate dimensions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Not my field at all, but I can imagine there could be difficulties in scaleability of some of the technique that is appropriate for models up to OO size. Clearly the tooling has to be physically larger for an O model, and that may in turn require different production machinery. Materials choices and the detail design of the parts for satisfactory mould filling, release, and stability of the resulting moulding may require more design investment. The mechanical engineering becomes more demanding due to both the increased mass of the model and the more visible movement of the working parts. None of it rocket science, and the knowledge to solve these problems exists: but if a project is started on the assumption that present knowledge and technique is adequate, there can be a serious impact when it is discovered that they are not, and may mean that aspects of the project have to be restarted from scratch. Indeed, from the POV of a model vs the prototype sometimes scaled dimensions have to be tweaked so as to look 'right' in model form, thats where the skill lies in getting it right, as opposed to relying on drawings, CAD, laser measurements et al... From information given, I'm guessing no laser scans have been taken & they've worked from original drawings alone. There's an 08 just down the road that they could have confirmed dimensions on: http://www.nwrail.org.uk/ac101003_08195.jpg That shot is taken from platform level as opposed to track level & demonstrates that the bonnet sides are tapered & not parallel as per Dapol's CAD. I think that's just saved me £200. (Edited to correct my inept typing) I have a strong suspicion that laser scans were taken As I said even with CAD and scans good model-making is about conversion into a scale model and interpretation is it not? One big assumption that the body does not taper, why not wait for the model. It could be a simple fact that with all the detail in the back ground that the taper is not showing up on the CADS. The amount of money being invested in this project I suspect that they will have tried to get the basics like body shape right, especially as they have quoted the dimensions, that suggest they no them. If it is missing on production then I think Dapol will have done far more than shot themselves in the foot and will deserve the abuse they will get but to get it before a physical item even shows up is unfair, EP's soon then we will see. If you look at DJM's Thread DJ speaks of tooling costs vs mistakes - I think that my comment was along the lines of; measure 3 times and cut mould/cast once...dimensions are not the whole story, please see above Also I think that we are judging Dapol on past performance (7mm scale), sadly a manufacturer seems only as good as their last model, which IIRC, was, in 7mm, the 6 wheel tank - oops! Besides the Dog Kennel was wrong, so were the POW's....see where I am going with this? While Dapol have not replied to my email, their Facebook does say that they are working on new CADS showing the taper and also quoting the appropriate dimensions. I still cannot fathom the delay - my understanding was that Dapol had all the info to hand a long time back - to quote Michael Stipe '..oh no, Ive said too much..' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfsboy Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 A lot of clever people on here who know nothing of the real market .It is the fact people buy what they fancy not what may be accurate .The few people on here to whom total accuracy is important are not that important in real life ,only on here to themselves .I suspect fewer than a dozen punters have not bought a J15 because of the handrail issue . In real life most buy model trains because they like em and it looks roughly like the model it is intended .I doubt even the working location and region bothers them .Many will be plonked on some appalling track to whizz round at huge speed while others wont even be removed from the packaging . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains4U Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 A lot of clever people on here who know nothing of the real market .It is the fact people buy what they fancy not what may be accurate .The few people on here to whom total accuracy is important are not that important in real life ,only on here to themselves .I suspect fewer than a dozen punters have not bought a J15 because of the handrail issue . In real life most buy model trains because they like em and it looks roughly like the model it is intended .I doubt even the working location and region bothers them .Many will be plonked on some appalling track to whizz round at huge speed while others wont even be removed from the packaging . This is a very good point. there seems to be a lot of froth being generated in this thread, and a lot of criticism about the product that Dapol have produced to date. I understand that people want accurate models - really, I do, and in some ways I'd count myself among them But in reality,it's not actually that many people. I'd say probably 80-90% of customers don't care! basically, to most people, If it looks right, it is right. It is in the manufacturer's best interest to get a model as prototypically accurate as possible, but where do you stop? It must be obvious that there are commercial considerations in play with regard to pricing points, manufacturing capability, assembly costs and re-use, and that means a balance must be found between accuracy and price. So the Private Owner wagons are a work of fiction... Who really cares? probably every PO wagon to come out of Hornby, and a large number from Bachmann are fictional or adapted in some way or another. Dapol are making a reasonable model for a reasonable price - a fully built and decorated wagon for much the same cost as a kit (Once paint, glues and transfers are factored in) but without the expense of time and the burden of having to learn kitbuilding skills. what more could you expect? Yes I'm sure the wagons could be more accurate, I'm sure a hundred variations of PO wagon could be tooled, but no-one would buy them at £100 or £120 each. Dapol are doing a great job of making O Gauge accessible. I'm praying that the Terrier and 08 are good - and I mean in terms of build QUALITY, rather than ACCURACY. If they are, then they will be the catalyst for a big shift in the numbers of people modelling O. Price is now a key driving factor for a lot of customers - and if the models provide a good base to work from, at a fair price, then more people will dip their toe in the water and start in O, and surely this can only be a good thing for the specialist manufacturers as their potential market will have expanded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted July 27, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2015 . . . I mean in terms of build QUALITY, rather than ACCURACY. If they are, then they will be the catalyst for a big shift in the numbers of people modelling O. Price is now a key driving factor for a lot of customers - and if the models provide a good base to work from, at a fair price, then more people will dip their toe in the water and start in O, and surely this can only be a good thing for the specialist manufacturers as their potential market will have expanded. Look how many Hudswell Clarke locos Ixion have sold - I believe the first run was 1500 and most of those have gone with another 500 in the alternative green livery followed by the Fowler diesel and expected by the end of the year is the Minerva Peckett. There were many comments on here at the time the HC was introduced about that loco being just what modellers needed to make a start in 7mm which until then had been regarded by many as too expensive. The offerings from Dapol may not be up to ABS standards (!) but as Gareth said above, the majority don't care about that level of accuracy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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