muddys-blues Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Is that including wheels and motor/gearbox? Nope, neither glue, paints or transfer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazza Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Oh dear. Looking at the CAD files they have missed the bonnet taper - I have emailed them about it to double check. Have they responeded about the bonnet taper yet surely they will sort this before production? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted July 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2015 Nope, neither glue, paints or transfer Exactly...........I think the cost will at least double after all the bits to complete are collected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted July 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2015 Is that including wheels and motor/gearbox? Glad you two got the "tongue in cheek" question Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meld9003 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 No response from Dapol as yet. I'll advise when and if I get one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Oh dear. Looking at the CAD files they have missed the bonnet taper - I have emailed them about it to double check. Indeed. We have two very good, if not great 00 08's, why on earth cant Dapol get things right in 7mm? If, as Dapol's previous performance in 7mm seems so inept, they struggle to get such right - I never advocate modelling a model - but as part of development or R&D costs, why didnt Dapol buy a Bachmann 08 and a Hornby 08 (both great models) and even an MMP kit and see what the competition had done and work from prototype drawings, old photos, and at a push, preserved 08's? As Subject Matter Experts and manufacturers, why cant they get it right?! I fail to comprehend it..... Yep, the CAD bonnet sides are parallel. Unbelievable..... Had a quick look - almost speechless here Dave! A heads up for other modellers, JLTRT have reduced their 08 to £295.00 if anyone is interested ..... no connection etc etc Craig. Craig, its a nice model, yet costly (all in) and the cab windows are not the correct height on the sides, the MMP kit, is more challenging to build but offers better VFM... No response from Dapol as yet. I'll advise when and if I get one. Dont hold your breath Meld9003! Kindest to one and all, even Dapol. ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Pannier Tank Posted July 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 11, 2015 I wonder variatons we can expect, it's a bit of a mine field! See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/6622-class-08-09-variations/?hl=%2Bclass+%2B08+%2Bvariations Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I wonder variatons we can expect, it's a bit of a mine field! See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/6622-class-08-09-variations/?hl=%2Bclass+%2B08+%2Bvariations I agree, IF Dapol get the basics right, there are so many aspects to these long lived locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Does anyone know if Dapol read this Thread at all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave47549 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Does anyone know if Dapol read this Thread at all? I've had a reply on farcebook, although Mr. ABS's comment appears to have been ignored! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Godfrey Glyn Posted July 15, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 15, 2015 Perhaps for those who are not on Facebook it would be fair to see Dapol's reply- "Hi Dave, we have worked from the original drawings which indicate the sides are tapered,5'-93/4" at cantrail and 6'-1" over the housing frame at base, giving a difference of 15/8" taper. This will be in the model although the above drawings, I admit do not seem to show it.." I don't have the drawings so need to look a some photos of the real loco, taken from a mid point up the bonnet with a good quality lens, before I am able to judge whether they are right or wrong. A photo taken from ground level will accentuate a taper. Godfrey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobster Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I've had a reply on farcebook, although Mr. ABS's comment appears to have been ignored! Why am I not surprised !! Cheers, Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Godfrey Glyn Posted July 15, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 15, 2015 I am intrigued by this, enough to get one of my Bachmann 00 08s out and measure the top and bottom of the bonnet. Difficult to decide where exactly to measure but I reckon its 24.1 mm across the bottom and 23.1 mm across the top at cantrail - about 1 mm difference or 3 inches in real money. That would appear to be not far out from the measurements given by Dapol above, given the accuracy of my micrometer, and my ability to measure the actual distance on a 4mm/foot model. Godfrey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I've had a reply on farcebook, although Mr. ABS's comment appears to have been ignored! Do please post his comments here, just for their entertainment value Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobster Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Do please post his comments here, just for their entertainment value Hahaha - I like it. Cheers, Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I've had a reply on farcebook, although Mr. ABS's comment appears to have been ignored! Please see the bottom of the page Perhaps for those who are not on Facebook it would be fair to see Dapol's reply- "Hi Dave, we have worked from the original drawings which indicate the sides are tapered,5'-93/4" at cantrail and 6'-1" over the housing frame at base, giving a difference of 15/8" taper. This will be in the model although the above drawings, I admit do not seem to show it.." I don't have the drawings so need to look a some photos of the real loco, taken from a mid point up the bonnet with a good quality lens, before I am able to judge whether they are right or wrong. A photo taken from ground level will accentuate a taper. Godfrey Thanks Godfrey. From a Dapol POV, thats helpful for those on Myspacebook, but what about those of us that dont use that type of media - and dont really want to? Besides isnt RM Web the most appropriate place to Post such info (largest model railway forum in UK?). Why am I not surprised !! Cheers, Bob. Please see bettom of the page also. Do please post his comments here, just for their entertainment value Please see my comments below. Hahaha - I like it. Cheers, Bob Fellas, The thing about ABS, is that, like it or not, he knows what he is on about - love or hate his approach - he has a wealth of knowledge (prototype, model and manufacturing) and lets face it Dapol et al keep dropping the ball, when it comes to their 7mm scale releases. Even some of the mags have stuck their head above the parapet and provided harsher critiques on their 7mm releases. IMHO eg. the tank wagons were not much better than old Tri-ang models, yet cost a lot more money. As always I make no value judgements on others' purchases. I understand that one of their smaller scale locos has had problems in causing interference? School boy errors again and again? How often do we read/hear that Dapol, Hornby, Bachmann et al have a problem with quality, or defects? More and more - or too often so it would seem? With risk of being blackballed from the lodge, my brothers When one looks at the way European and UK politics, more so the US, although all are now candy coated, all are becoming more and more 'right wing' (or right of centre) and more and more biased in favour of big business. Caveat; I am apolitical. The govt tell us that in the UK we are not productive enough, yet in another breath we are told that the UK works harder and longer hours than any other country in the EU, why? One of a myriad of reasons is constant c%ckups (mods please remove if that causes offence - I am trying to keep my expletive ratio low ) which seem par for the course these days and, for a myriad of other reasons, awful senior management, coupled with a 'aspirational' (greed) based culture (all based on monetarism and capitalism - which in of itself is based on greed and fear). Why do I mention such? Because these issues, coupled with 'planned obsolescence', are coming to the fore, more and more often and I believe that Dapol are micro symptomatic of this macro business culture. In other words business has become more and more, on the whole, cynical and big business, is becoming more and more powerful, with little or no empathy for the cultures and environments in which they operate. Pensions eroded and being eroded, little or no ability for the less well off of legal representation (due to costs and legislation changes) - I could go on, but dont want to bring the Thread down. But by eroding legal 'abilities' of the average punter, although some of the laws are in place, taking on a business or big business, as an individual, more often than not, you will be taking on a legal department or blue chip lawyers and a raft of barristers - so in theory we still have rights, just, but the application of the law? Business often knows this, with a 'come and have a go if you think that you are hard enough' attitude. Also has anyone here ever had cause to complain about poor treatment at the hands of a.n.other's solicitor? Complain to the law society perhaps? Forget it, there is little or no recourse! I think that Dapol posting on Myspacebook is, and not here, in of itself, a little cynical, I am very sceptical of those companies and celebs that wont answer letters of emails (true to say that volume of such plays a part), yet Myspacebook et al is, IMHO, a showboating type media outlet for such organisations. Perhaps we need more like Adrian Swain? You may all sit a mock him and his ilk, yet business is starting to ride rough shod over us all and its set to get worse. You have to ask why a £1000 TV will now only last 5 years - planned obsolescence and keeping the masses in debt and thus subservient. Like Adrian Swain or not, he, more often than not, is correct about his observations of new releases/CAD/EPs. Even though we are only playing trains, I do hope that Dapol get the 08 right, but I have my doubts, since Dave Jones left, things seem to have gone completely off of the rails 7mm wise (pun intended LOL!). Kindest to all, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 The thing about ABS, is that, like it or not, he knows what he is on about - love or hate his approach - he has a wealth of knowledge (prototype, model and manufacturing) and lets face it Dapol et al keep dropping the ball, when it comes to their 7mm scale releases. law society perhaps? Forget it, there is little or no recourse! Like Adrian Swain or not, he, more often than not, is correct about his observations of new releases/CAD/EPs. Even though we are only playing trains, Yes - and IMHO this forum is all the poorer without that input. Mind you - I doubt Adrian would agree with the 'only playing trains' bit! DJP/MMP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Yes - and IMHO this forum is all the poorer without that input. Mind you - I doubt Adrian would agree with the 'only playing trains' bit! DJP/MMP Hi David, Thanks - I agree. Thanks too, fellas, for the 'Likes' and 'Agrees' I know, its just me trying to be funny and lighten the mood when I mention 'playing trains', after all such isnt life and death, yet it seems that cynical business practices are creeping into the world of 7mm. Please dont get me wrong, having run family businesses et al. I realise that there is a need to make a profit. I know that most of the cottage industry 7mm suppliers - who are and were IMHO saviours of 'O' gauge and 7mm - try to do the very best that they can and supply the best quality products relative to price and availability and over the years this market 'sector' has now segmented and so there are many different pricing strata for the same/similar types of models which can in turn cater for all wallets and all modelling needs. Whilst I welcome RTR to complement - or to get one up and running whilst possibly replacing lesser models with quality kit builds - I have found some aspects of RTR cynical, both towards the customer and indeed the cottage industry that is 'O' gauge or 7mm FS. Its a smallish pond and I have written here and elsewhere about the need to avoid duplication and for the best quality relative to price (with continuous improvement and/or TQM) to be applied. If Dapol et al cant take constructive criticism then perhaps business isnt for them? How many times have we been told by businesses - cynically - 'dont take it personally its only business'? I know from industry insiders, mags, traders et al. that they all have found the lack of communications or lack of effective communications on the part of Dapol, frustrating to say the least. Perhaps if the RTR manufacturers got it right first time (or as near as damn it - relative to price and manufacturing methods), as subject matter experts, or listened to constructive criticism and replied accordingly, then, none of us would have to waste our precious time banging on about it, Adrian Swain included. I am keen to see the new 'OO' GW kettle from Hattons (a good company), yet the amount of detail shown in the CAD drawings makes the model look to be to 'museum quality' standards (a few have mentioned such now) and that makes me wonder if it will be on time and on budget? IF it is, then it will set new industry standards. I am also hoping that DJM will produce some WR 7mm models in time. Re 08s in 7mm, I have my MMP kit to build - so the Dapol would have been an interim model, fettled, played with and moved on when my kit is built - time will tell! Kindest regards, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2015 While Adrian's facts are well researched I think it was some of the repeats and tone that got him warned then blocked. Adrian is a known perfectionist and forums require a slightly more compromising approach than entering into repeated critique of fellow manufacturers. What you do on your own website is up to you when factually accurate but the rules here are meant to allow you to educate but not put down especially between commercial interests. That's even more so now BRM own the forum and it's not polite to let another manufacturer criticise one of your advertisers either. It's a very difficult line to tread moderating that and you ain't going to please all the people. This thread has made me aware of potential problems and I'll wait and see the prototype models as I did for the Terrier before placing an order. Yes Dapol could have released their reply straight on here but it got here within a day anyway so the info on the 08 is here and as with other CAD drawings they can be misleading when viewed on screen as they aren't always rendered in perspective. A little more perspective on patience for timescales? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2015 I really think the criticism of Dapol 7mm scale Locomotives, based on CAD images and speculation, is unfair. The long wait has not helped, but let's wait & see for a few weeks (?) and the Terrier will show what their standards are going to be. Some of the rants about business in this thread are irrelevant, no matter how many smilies you include. If it's an accurate, well-built model, people will buy it. Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 .... . If it's an accurate, well-built model, people will buy it. Dava What really got ABS going though was that Dapol's wagons were not accurate - and people still bought them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 What really got ABS going though was that Dapol's wagons were not accurate - and people still bought them F-Unit - Are you saying that is a good thing? Its not clear from your posting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 There is a myth that if you mention he must not be named three times that Andy Y will be forced to let him back onto the Forum. Should we not try and stick to the topic of the 08 and whether it is correct or not and not get into a debate about someone who polarised opinions on this forum resulting in massive divergences on topics which it is in danger of doing on this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted July 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2015 What really got ABS going though was that Dapol's wagons were not accurate - and people still bought them Then we can only summise that a lot of people liked them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 While Adrian's facts are well researched I think it was some of the repeats and tone that got him warned then blocked. Adrian is a known perfectionist and forums require a slightly more compromising approach than entering into repeated critique of fellow manufacturers. What you do on your own website is up to you when factually accurate but the rules here are meant to allow you to educate but not put down especially between commercial interests. That's even more so now BRM own the forum and it's not polite to let another manufacturer criticise one of your advertisers either. It's a very difficult line to tread moderating that and you ain't going to please all the people. This thread has made me aware of potential problems and I'll wait and see the prototype models as I did for the Terrier before placing an order. Yes Dapol could have released their reply straight on here but it got here within a day anyway so the info on the 08 is here and as with other CAD drawings they can be misleading when viewed on screen as they aren't always rendered in perspective. A little more perspective on patience for timescales? Hi Paul, I agree that Adrian, bless him, seemed to have a bee in his bonnet. I have written procedures and papers on ethical business behaviour and from what I can tell from ABS is that, Adrian Swain, in semi-retirement etc., has no conflict of interests in terms of business - he is an enthusiastic, perhaps over enthusiastic, modeller and enthusiast, with others' interests at heart. Using your argument BRM owning RM Web could be, however, seen as a 'conflict of interest' as with any magazine that carries advertising for the main manufacturers - but let us hope that tptb within make sure that such doesnt ever arise!? 'Patience and timescales?' Not sure what you mean - with the release of the 08? Its been years thus far. Not aimed at you Paul, but in general, I cant fathom why, when someone tries to defend modellers, people rush to defend a - now faceless - company ie Dapol, I would say that there is a conflict of interest there, with those Dapol apologists having shares in Dapol (or maybe just plain old Shills?)? I think that a Mod's role must be like trying to heard cats - Andy Y does a great job as far as I can tell. I really think the criticism of Dapol 7mm scale Locomotives, based on CAD images and speculation, is unfair. The long wait has not helped, but let's wait & see for a few weeks (?) and the Terrier will show what their standards are going to be. Some of the rants about business in this thread are irrelevant, no matter how many smilies you include. If it's an accurate, well-built model, people will buy it. Dava Dava, any criticism (I prefer critique) - NOW - is justified for the sake of getting the EP right, I would have thought that Dapol would be grateful? I thought that there was problems with the Terrier, lots of them (I am not an expert on such locos)? I, for one want the best for Dapol, yet they seem to keep shooting themselves in the foot? Rants about business? - info dear boy, not a rant, I could write a 12,000 word paper on the subject, yet my time is precious, so I have chosen to keep it simple and paraphrase - for everybody's sake. AND It is perfectly relevant. I have been involved in supply and value chain management for 40 years and I can see where the moderm commercial world is going, and the punter is oft made to suffer - but each to their own, if they wish to put their head in the sand. Taking the p mickey out of others (ie Adrian) who cant reply is irrelevant and unkind, no matter what you think of the individual concerned (I realise that at times Adrian has been over zealous but he is passionate about the hobby, getting models right, and getting the best for fellow modellers - that's why I chose to take the time, my precious time, to reply, in depth) as he is unable to reply. I agree the long wait hasnt helped, but much worse than that the ineffective communications from Dapol compound such. I have some additional info on this model, which I cannot divulge, if you knew what I - and others - knew then you would not be so understanding of Dapol. To keep you happy, I havent used any 'smilies' in my reply to you.... What really got ABS going though was that Dapol's wagons were not accurate - and people still bought them Hi Jordan , I agree. I think he thought it unfair, but that's how the world of business now is, oft unfair, with very few truly honourable fellows present There is a myth that if you mention he must not be named three times that Andy Y will be forced to let him back onto the Forum. Should we not try and stick to the topic of the 08 and whether it is correct or not and not get into a debate about someone who polarised opinions on this forum resulting in massive divergences on topics which it is in danger of doing on this thread. The topic of the 08 relates directly to Dapol's business administration, or should that be mis-administration, hence why I have mentioned such. Re Adrian coming back, I think that his time is better occupied in enjoying life, rather than preaching to the unconverted and those uninitiates outwith Then we can only summise that a lot of people liked them. They did indeed, sadly it seemed to affect Lionheart sales - which as I said is unfair, as Lionheart's were nigh on perfect and Dapol's were awful. In general and not directed at you Boxbrownie; my comments re Dapol and the 08 are relevant, as many industry insiders know the main reasons why there is/are problems with these models (or the lack thereof). As I said Dapol's communications are poor, even the trade and media have said such, and Dapol appear to run scared of here (RMW). IIRC ABS offered free help and advice to Dapol - via a well known Guild member et al. - and Dapol chose to ignore such (arrogance or stupidity on their part?), this has been the same with other manufacturers and clients of Dapol's, so ABS has tried to help you all/us, the buying punter, get best VFM and Adrian ends up being ridiculed on here and Dapol gets all of the sympathy, as I said, if most knew what most of the insiders knew, then Dapol wouldnt get any sympathy! I wonder how many have an undeclared or vested interest in Dapol et al and how many shills are present on such forums? I make no value judgements about those who want to buy wagons that are eg. inaccurate but prettily painted, but if every manufacturer kept following that MO then we would still be running tinplate, from a personal POV, I cannot fathom why so many purchased the inaccurate Dapol POWs as opposed to Lionheart's (although Lionheart's marketing strategy may have had something to do with such?). El-crappo models (Colin Massingham), they were, cheap and cheerful requiring a lot of work to make good, but some good models have been made from them, Dapol's 7mm output? Nicely decorated and RTR, but inaccurate and pricey. I suppose you pays yer money and makes yer choice?! Adrian Swain appears to have meant well, yet became a little over zealous and frustrated, so it would seem, I am guseeing that some of that frustration comes from knowing facts and truths and then not having us, the punters, listen, heed or digest. The usual caveats apply, I have no business interests in Dapol or ABS - my only interest is in getting best VFM and service for us all. Kindest regards to you all, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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