RMweb Premium QWILPEN Posted July 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 3, 2012 from newtork rail press release http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Press-Releases/DERAILMENT-RECOVERY-WORKS-CONTINUE-ON-WEST-HIGHLAND-LINE-1afb/SearchCategoryID-3.aspx News Releases: Scotland DERAILMENT RECOVERY WORKS CONTINUE ON WEST HIGHLAND LINE Monday 02 Jul 2012 17:00 The West Highland line will remain closed between Crianlarich and Fort William for the rest of this week as engineers work to recover a derailed freight service. Due to the remote location of the train, which was derailed near Tulloch last Thursday evening following a landslip, the operation to remove the train, stabilise the slope above and repair damage to the track is expected to take until July 11 to complete. The incident site is inaccessible by road and located on a steep hillside, making the recovery of the freight engine and several derailed wagons one of the most challenging Network Rail’s engineers have faced. A Network Rail spokesman said: “Our engineers are working hard to recover the line and restore rail services and quickly as possible.†ScotRail is providing a replacement bus service between Glasgow Queen Street and Fort William to minimise disruption for passengers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Hi all, Written off apparantly see WNXX forum :- http://www.wnxxforum...=575775#p575775 Regards Simon So a link to a post on a spotters forum (that most of us cant access anyway) is enough for the loco to be condemned is it! Okay then. If there is a link to an official source then please post the link so we can make our own minds up as to the authenticity and knowledge of the poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted July 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 3, 2012 And a couple of posts later on the same forum (by the forum owner/wnxx founder) indicates that no decision has yet been made. We need to wait until someone from the leasing company or operator or similarly responsible body makes an official announcement. Cheers, Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emac Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 A update on whats going on can be found here http://www.scot-rail.../message/320175 (my edit) you have to log in to see this post but it is free to join good up to date discusion on derailment and scottish railway gen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 A update on whats going on can be found here http://www.scot-rail.../message/320175 Yet another link that I cannot access. Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emac Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Sorry rmweb members forgot you have to log into site which you can do for free at http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/HomePage there has been a good indepth disscussion on the derailment for those interested update was that some wagons have been rerailed by jacks and taken from the site by 66103 yesterday, some others to be rerailed today. 66103 will return to Mossend at some point after that (when instructed) to bring in crane once the upright wagons are re-railed and removed. The crane (JIB leading) can then get to the wagons on their sides once they are dug out from the mud and rock debris surrounding them. 66734 + wagon on the rear of it down embankment are now tethered to stabilise against any further movement. hopefully when done the banking will be stabalised and the line re opened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted July 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 4, 2012 This incident is a lovely example that demonstrates how conjecture, misinformation, whispers from the man on the Clapham Omnibus, rumour, back of an envelope guesswork and the ruminations of armchair 'experts' can suddenly become oft repeated 'indistbutable fact' once it is filtered into the public view through a keyboard... Still, life would be dull with just cold hard facts wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Still, life would be dull with just cold hard facts wouldn't it? It sure would. But so often "the cold hard facts" never appear* in the public domain so all anyone outside the secret world is left with is poor biased reporting, speculation and rumour on all sides, and their own experience and imagination to speculate on an answer. * "never" is as good as some highly censored bland investigative report, attempting to avoid explicit detail and blame that is published years later when the public has forgotten the incident and the inconvenience it has caused. It has ceased to be news so does not get seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emac Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 well said John; I hopefully will get my information from the horse's mouth rather than from the other end which can be **** but as you say "life would be dull with just cold hard facts wouldn't it?" well back to my arm chair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted July 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 4, 2012 Sorry rmweb members forgot you have to log into site which you can do for free at http://www.scot-rail...k/page/HomePage there has been a good indepth disscussion on the derailment for those interested update was that some wagons have been rerailed by jacks and taken from the site by 66103 yesterday, some others to be rerailed today. 66103 will return to Mossend at some point after that (when instructed) to bring in crane once the upright wagons are re-railed and removed. The crane (JIB leading) can then get to the wagons on their sides once they are dug out from the mud and rock debris surrounding them. 66734 + wagon on the rear of it down embankment are now tethered to stabilise against any further movement. hopefully when done the banking will be stabalised and the line re opened I wonder if the plan is simply to get the line clear as quickly as possable, leaving the loco and any wagons that have gone down the bank where they are for the time being. From a Network Rail point of view the quicker they can re-open the line, the better (as it stops having to pay compensation to the opperators). This also gives time for all options for recovery, including partial / complete dismantaling of the loco, to be evaluated. While in the past the prefered option may well have been to try and drag it back up the bank, my hunch is that such an option will be ruled out because of concerns about bank stability,etc and instead we are looking at some sort of dismantling being done on site, so that the remains can be extracted in manageable chunks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emac Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Phil I think you are spot on the quicker the line is open the better for all dont know what stock the alcan plant has also we are in the middle of the tourist season which must hit the income of the districts around fort william Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted July 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 4, 2012 but as you say "life would be dull with just cold hard facts wouldn't it?" well back to my arm chair I wonder if the plan is simply to get the line clear as quickly as possable Phil I think you are spot on the quicker the line is open the better for all Pot / Kettle. (No disrespect to Phil-b259 - musing is fine) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Seems as though the loco and one wagon attached to it are secured to the embankment and slide fences are being put in place and stabilisation taking place.Wagons to be removed and track repaired ,line to open by 11th July with a tsr in place, the loco retreval poses a real problem for NR one of their most difficult.Perhaps the Deltic will be hired again to repdace the damaged 66? Scot-Rail is an interesting site with good info on Scottish matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 4, 2012 It sure would. But so often "the cold hard facts" never appear* in the public domain so all anyone outside the secret world is left with is poor biased reporting, speculation and rumour on all sides, and their own experience and imagination to speculate on an answer. * "never" is as good as some highly censored bland investigative report, attempting to avoid explicit detail and blame that is published years later when the public has forgotten the incident and the inconvenience it has caused. It has ceased to be news so does not get seen. But in reality this is exactly what does happen with any rail incident investigated by RAIB, or if ORR Inspectors make any comment, because all that material comes into the public domain so there is no question of the 'cold hard facts' not appearing. But, particularly in the case of RAIB, I wholeheartedly agree that it takes a long time for Reports to appear - far too long in my view. But equally no investigator can afford to be too quick off the blocks with comments except - in some cases - with negatives which rule something out or in situations where liability can be quickly accepted. However many incidents are not that simple and it takes time to fully investigate all relevant factors. Some are remarkably simple but then things take a very different turn for all sorts of reasons and things become long drawn out. For instance I knew the immediate cause of the Ladbroke Grove collision within no more than 3 hours of it happening because I happened to bump into a former work colleague as I headed home - unable to get to work that day - but that immediate cause then became enmeshed in all sorts of subsidiary events plus an atrociously long running, and at times very badly managed, Inquiry which meant public knowledge of what took place only emerged slowly. The other side of the coin is the 'instant guesswork' of the media and 'trainspotters' - often wide of the mark and sometimes disgustingly heaping opprobrium on totally innocent parties, as happened after the Harrow collision. But to demolish the nonsense published by the press in that case took a lot of careful investigative work and time - instant correction was impossible because the facts were not clear. And that is one thing we will never avoid - investigating such incidents takes time and very often a lot of careful work but in the meanwhile the media and others will be advancing their unfounded theories which no one is in a position to deny; fortunately RMweb rarely suffers from that childishness and usually comes down hard on it should it start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 But in reality this is exactly what does happen with any rail incident investigated by RAIB, or if ORR Inspectors make any comment, because all that material comes into the public domain so there is no question of the 'cold hard facts' not appearing.  But, particularly in the case of RAIB, I wholeheartedly agree that it takes a long time for Reports to appear - far too long in my view. RAIB reports were crossing my mind at the time I posted that remark. They may well be in the "public domain" but they do not appear in the public mind as they do not get the coverage in the media anywhere like the original incident. In fact probably many other incidents have occurred in between times and the public (excepting those perhaps closely involved) have something new to discuss - yet another banking crisis perhaps. Where there have been tragic outcomes the public understands better prejudicial and subjudice limits though not when a incident only appears to cause inconvenience. Then speculation in public forums only becomes natural between interested individuals. of course the now global and instant nature of media doesn't help matters. Incidents are now reported world-wide almost the minute they happen and the media is always looking for the next scoop not on reporting facts or in-depth professional analysis days, months or even years after they happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 4, 2012 RAIB reports were crossing my mind at the time I posted that remark. They may well be in the "public domain" but they do not appear in the public mind as they do not get the coverage in the media anywhere like the original incident. In fact probably many other incidents have occurred in between times and the public (excepting those perhaps closely involved) have something new to discuss - yet another banking crisis perhaps. Where there have been tragic outcomes the public understands better prejudicial and subjudice limits though not when a incident only appears to cause inconvenience. Then speculation in public forums only becomes natural between interested individuals. of course the now global and instant nature of media doesn't help matters. Incidents are now reported world-wide almost the minute they happen and the media is always looking for the next scoop not on reporting facts or in-depth professional analysis days, months or even years after they happened. Generally agree with that - the problem with the media is that 'sensation' sells newspapers and attracts tv viewers hence they tend not to bother with the causes of incidents unless they can still find headlines about things like 'death of a loved one recalled ', 'local man found to be at fault/responsible/made an error', 'family remember so & so and condemn inquiry report', 'report reveals cover-up' and so on. And a Report which reveals true causes totally at odds with past reporting and lurid headlines is of course something of an embarassment. The armchair pundit who seems to have become far more common since the internet replaced his bored fellow drinkers at the local pub is a rather different thing and, to be honest, most are probably more interested in seeing what they posted up on the screen than the folk who get to read it. There is one crucial difference between them and reporters in the media (apart from the fact that they don't get paid) and that is the absence of any sort of editorial control over the garbage they can come out with until either mods get to work or more mature folk have their say (not that they necessarily are privy to what is taking place in the real world). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 The armchair pundit who seems to have become far more common since the internet replaced his bored fellow drinkers at the local pub is a rather different thing and, to be honest, most are probably more interested in seeing what they posted up on the screen than the folk who get to read it.  There is one crucial difference between them and reporters in the media (apart from the fact that they don't get paid) and that is the absence of any sort of editorial control over the garbage they can come out with until either mods get to work or more mature folk have their say (not that they necessarily are privy to what is taking place in the real world). I'm not so sure that is totally fair. Unfortunately, perhaps, the world has moved on a pace since the days of newsprint and 'D' notices. With media like facebook, twitter and really to a much lesser extent blogs and forums , the information world is at everyone's fingertips to add to and contribute. What would, even 10-15 years ago would have found its way into print and dropped on your doorstep or have been seen to be worthy of tv 'news at 10' coverage is now truly 24/7 and global. Events gain coverage simply because they are mentioned and others showing interest gather around to add their thoughts. I'm not even sure it is from any desire to see their name in print but more freely given just as a participation in the "local" would have taken place following reading the newspaper on the way home on the train. I don't think there is malice either, just a desire, an almost natural human behaviour, to find out more. The fact that they might not be in receipt of pure facts even makes the discussion of a subject more intriguing and enticing to join in. Everyone in the discussion is in the same position, no one can offer any true facts just their position, or prior experience in similar situations. Managing that immediacy and increasing desire to participate does not stop by moderation it only offends the participants and temporarily takes the program off air until the next event. This applies to media regarding any event and not the relatively unremarkable train derailment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 A report on the Scottish news tonight said that the line is due to reopen tomorrow. Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emac Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 It will be interesting to see what develops with 66734 would make a good bothy for fishermen though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Isn't "bothy" Scottish for "shed"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 At the end if the day, it shows to me how little excitement there is on the modern railway . Scrapped or not scrapped ? It's only of concern to the company/ insurers really. It's not like it's 'mallard' or the flying Scotsman ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Are the people who speculate any worse than the people people who say 'I know, but I'm not telling"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted July 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2012 Yep - Far worse Saying you know whats what i but can't or won't say is fair comment- Wild ill or non-informed speculation is irresposible gossip mongering for the sake of saying something just because you can do Assuming those who claim to know do so - of course they can then claim after the event that they "knew". The people who really know and don't wan't to let others know don't advertise their knowledge they just keep quiet - full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Thats kinda what I meant. If you know and can't say for some reason, just say nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 For sure times have changed - With BR then laterly with INTERCITY and even more so with GNER pronouncements made about this and that (along the lines of the "a railway spokesman said") about the company's business was a fairly serious disciplinary offence - bringing the company into disrepute or some such - so most of us steered well clear of passing on or making comment about specific incidents for obvious reasons. These days on public forums I do wonder at about some of the alleged "insiders" comments. Those that say they know and tell and those that say they know but won't tell I'm afraid just come across as proverbial willy wavers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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