Things that make you :)

[Steamport Southport]

I did ponder going over to Chester to see FS as an excuse to have a few pints but couldn't be bothered. Far too hot and I reckoned everywhere would be packed.

 

 

[big jim]

[Nick C]

On 10/06/2023 at 22:06, Hroth said:

 

Loch Ness normally contains nearly 7,500 million cubic metres of water and is 230 metres deep at its deepest point, so even with the guzzling alpacas, there's plenty of room for Nessie and her tribe to lurk...

 

More water than all the lakes in England and Wales combined, apparently (today's useless fact of the day...)

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Nick C

[jcredfer]

42 minutes ago, Nick C said:

 

More wather than all the lates in England and Wales combined, apparently (today's useless fact of the day...)

 

 

That's amazing and all the Scots would have to do is raise it 250 metres up and they have enough water to supply hydro-electric power to the whole nation.

 

No complaints from the locals about flooding the landscape, as it's already there.

 

No complaints from the tourists, as being higher up, they would welcome the better views.

 

Win, win, win, you're a genius Nick.....   💥 🤓 💥

 

[Sidecar Racer]

 

[MJI]

6 hours ago, big jim said:

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/in-your-area/trainspotters-furious-after-flying-scotsman-27095410?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar
 

 

 

Someone at work mentioned that it was in the midlands.

 

"Not that bothered saw Mallard and SNG at Stratford a few years ago.  Even better saw this last year" (pic of RHF)

[Hroth]

6 hours ago, Nick C said:

 

More water than all the lakes in England and Wales combined, apparently (today's useless fact of the day...)

 

 

That Portillo chappie was on one of the digital channels early evening with his Bradshaw travelogue.  He'd ended up at Loch Ness and was chatting to various locals with fingers in the Nessie pie, one of whom trundled that bit of useful knowledge out...

 

[steve1]

On 12/06/2023 at 11:53, Steamport Southport said:

I did ponder going over to Chester to see FS as an excuse to have a few pints but couldn't be bothered. Far too hot and I reckoned everywhere would be packed.

 

 

 

A few pints in Chester is a very pleasant thought.

 

Wouldn’t cross the road to see that overhyped kettle.

 

steve

[kevinlms]

55 minutes ago, steve1 said:

 

Wouldn’t cross the road to see that overhyped kettle.

 

steve

It paid off well to ship it over to Australia in 1988! It was the alternative choice, as it was originally proposed for 4468 Mallard to come.

[The Johnster]

FS seems to be the Marmite of preserved steam; I am an odd man out in being somewhat ambivalent about it in general.  I'm happy to see it running, but tend to roll my eyes at the next tv documentary about the 'world's most famous/best loved/best known steam train'.  Gresley  A1s/A3s are an important stage in GNR/LNER loco development, and it is right that one should be preserved, and to be fair the loco does hold several records.  Overhyped, certainly, but that's the price of fame!

 

If FS had not been preserved, there would almost certainly be a move for either a new build or a conversion of one of the A4s to fill the gap.  It could be argued that there are too many A4s and that one could be spared for such a project.

Edited June 14, 2023 by The Johnster

[kevinlms]

23 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

FS seems to be the Marmite of preserved steam; I am an odd man out in being somewhat ambivalent about it in general.  I'm happy to see it running, but tend to roll my eyes at the next tv documentary about the 'world's most famous/best loved/best known steam train'.  Gresley  A1s/A3s are an important stage in GNR/LNER loco development, and it is right that one should be preserved, and to be fair the loco does hold several records.  Overhyped, certainly, but that's the price of fame!

No different to Harry & Meagain, forever appearing in the media - yet they claim they want privacy! It's the medias fault, not the locomotive.

[The Johnster]

I'd cross the road to see FS before I'd even get to the kerb for those two!

[Hroth]

7 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I'd cross the road to see FS before I'd even get to the kerb for those two!

 

I'd stay at home if either were about.

 

[Steamport Southport]

17 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

FS seems to be the Marmite of preserved steam; I am an odd man out in being somewhat ambivalent about it in general.  I'm happy to see it running, but tend to roll my eyes at the next tv documentary about the 'world's most famous/best loved/best known steam train'.  Gresley  A1s/A3s are an important stage in GNR/LNER loco development, and it is right that one should be preserved, and to be fair the loco does hold several records.  Overhyped, certainly, but that's the price of fame!

 

That's the problem - The Hype. Most of it comes from the NRM I'm afraid.

 

None of it's claims to fame were genuine. It certainly wasn't the first A1 built. It did go on exhibition at Wembley as an advert for the Flying Scotsman train.

 

It was beaten to the 100 MPH decades earlier, just that none of the other claims had Dynamometer Cars behind them. Trains timed at close to or even possibly beating 100 MPH were a regular occurrence by 1900. The L&Y Expresses pulled by Highflyers were certainly close to it.

 

And if the LNER disputed City Of Truro's record then why did they buy it and then put it in their museum with a plaque saying it was the first locomotive to reach 100 MPH!

 

The non stop record run was dubious as well. The LMS did it before them and one of those trains was with a Compound!

 

Details in a number of books, particularly History Of The LMS by OS Nock.

 

http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/19th-may-1928/19/the-lms-non-stop-runs-to-the-editor-of-the-spectat

 

4470 Great Northern was scheduled to be preserved as the first one. However it was deemed that it had been altered too much. Besides they also concluded that Mallard and Green Arrow were sufficient to tell the story.

 

The official stance was "Not worth saving".

 

Even Billy Butlin didn't want it. He apparently turned it down when offered it!

 

 

Jason

[Hroth]

10 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

The official stance was "Not worth saving".

 

Even Billy Butlin didn't want it. He apparently turned it down when offered it!

 

I also recall reading that Pegler was offered two A3s, Papyrus and Flying Scotsman.  Apparently Papyrus was in slightly better nick, but Pegler selected Scotsman "because name".

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

I also recall reading that Pegler was offered two A3s, Papyrus and Flying Scotsman.  Apparently Papyrus was in slightly better nick, but Pegler selected Scotsman "because name".

 

 

 

Didn't somebody try and save 60052 Prince Palatine as well?

 

Pity it didn't succeed as then when people start banging on about FS, you could then point out that it was just an ordinary locomotive in a class of 78.

 

I don't mind it. I just wish it was still in private hands and not funded by the taxpayer whilst they neglect and dispose of vastly more important artefacts such as the T3 and NSR tank....

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

That's the problem - The Hype. Most of it comes from the NRM I'm afraid.

 

Willingly aided and abetted by Auntie.

 

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

It was beaten to the 100 MPH decades earlier, just that none of the other claims had Dynamometer Cars behind them

 

This one will run and run, in fact it has for 99 years so far and no sign of letting up.  It comes down to what you regard as reliable measuring, and you can't argue with a Dynamometer (or at least, something is very wrong if you can*).  McConnell of the Bloomers claimed that it had been done as a matter of course several times while he was giving evidence at the Gauge Commission; given the lack of brakes and fragility of rails in those days one hopes not, but no harm came of it.  100mph was very probably achieved and exceeded many times before the CoT exploit, never mind FS's.  Claiming it incontravertably is difficult, and pointless in terms of day-to-day running of railways; it is only a number and the sort of thing the deluded idiots in marketing and publicity think is important.

 

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/19th-may-1928/19/the-lms-non-stop-runs-to-the-editor-of-the-spectat

 

The Royal Scot non-stop runs, and the working of the service as a non-stop train following the introduction of the 'Princess Royal' class (including the addition of the Caledonian and Midday Scot) were non-stop in the sense that no station stops were scheduled between Euston and Glasgow Central.  The trains paused briefly at Carlisle Upperby for crew relief, achieved on the ECML with corridor tenders.  I reckon FS is entitled to it's distance records, and the one set in Oz is pretty indisputable!

 

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

4470 Great Northern was scheduled to be preserved as the first one. However it was deemed that it had been altered too much. Besides they also concluded that Mallard and Green Arrow were sufficient to tell the story.

 

The official stance was "Not worth saving".

 

 

You can see the point of this; Great Northern had been radically altered from it's original form and arguably less important in the GN/LNER line of development in that condition; it could not have been displayed as a Gresley A1 or A3.  Had FS been saved by BR, given it's seriously  run-down condition in 1963, it would presumably been cosmetically restored in the same ways as Lode Star and Caerphilly Castle for museum display, not as a running loco.  In fact, BR TTBOMK never considered preserving any loco in running condition.

 

 

FS has proved repeatedly that it attracts big crowds, which non-enthusiasts in the media report in mild amusement and surprise, which then results in it being seen by enterprise investors as a good bet; where there's a crowd there's money to be made (gospel according to CMOT 'inna bun' Dibbler), especially an enthusiast crowd which, as we repeatedly prove, lacks the ability to make critically informed rational decisions when they are spending said money (or I would have have about 80% less locos and stock on my layout).  Said investors have inevitably come a cropper, even Pegler and MacAlpine who knew a bit about steam engines and had a fair idea what they were getting into, because the engine was a clapped out bag of nails moneypit, the reason BR took it out of service for scrap in 1963.  Pegler paid a scrap price for it and got what he paid for.

 

Alan Pegler was a businessman, and a successful one at that, and had an eye to what he could sell to operate the loco as a running proposition; this being the cachet and fame of the name, probably then the only locomotive name that was known in every household in the land, and still is.  He was ultimately wrong and it broke him;  I remember a conversation with him on the Festiniog (period spelling) in 1969 in which he said that it was like shovelling £10 notes into the firebox. It broke MacAlpine as well.  The enthusiast notoriety did not really kick in until post-August '68, when it was the only working steam engine allowed on BR for some time until KGV broke the ban in '71.  By that time the preservation movement was gaining traction (literally and figuratively) and it had been proved that restoration from Barry condition was possible.

 

I'm not sad he saved it, but really think it should have been retired from active service by the NRM when they aquired it and cosmetically restored to museum condition; the money spent on restoring it to 'new' condition and running it could have been spent better IMHO.  There are sufficient big pacifics available for the railtour market.  That said, that aforementioned cachet itself generated cash that would not have existed otherwise!  My enjoyment of seeing it running is marred by this awareness, but not destroyed entirely!  I'd go on a free bus ride with my bus pass (tx, WAG) to see it, but not a two-bus ride...

 

*That said, Rugby Testing Plant, a sort of super-accurate static dymamometer for measuring the power output of steam engines accurately under controlled conditions, managed to mess up it's results and undervalue power outputs by about 33% for reasons which have never been adequately investigated, with the result that the 1955 Modernisation Plan, using it's data, considered that 2,000hp in a 142ton locomotive would be needed to equal 8P steam performane in traffic.  Not even close, and the prototype Deltic had already proven this, as had the Ivatt Twins!  Subsequent timetable improvements depended on higher power with increasingly lighter loads, as well as re-alignments at junctions and resignalling. 

 

Cardiff General-Paddington 1961, King with 16 bogies, 3 hours 10 minutes non-stop from Newport.  Cardiff Central-London Paddington 1977, HST with 8 bogies, 1 hour 38 minutes non-stop from Newport.  Same number of coaches over a given time period, with same number of bums on seats.

Edited June 14, 2023 by The Johnster

[DavidB-AU]

For those who don't know, an "esolang" is an eroteric programming language. These programming languages are not intended to be practical but are a form of "software art".

 

But as far as esolangs go (a real language that can, in theory, actually be used) this one takes the cake. Even non-programmers will want to take a look at this example!

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by DavidB-AU

[PeterStiles]

I like:

The Queen Song, written by Bryan May:

"flat-bottomed rail"

 

No?

Oh well.

[kevinlms]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

 

 

FS has proved repeatedly that it attracts big crowds, which non-enthusiasts in the media report in mild amusement and surprise, which then results in it being seen by enterprise investors as a good bet; where there's a crowd there's money to be made (gospel according to CMOT 'inna bun' Dibbler), especially an enthusiast crowd which, as we repeatedly prove, lacks the ability to make critically informed rational decisions when they are spending said money (or I would have have about 80% less locos and stock on my layout).  Said investors have inevitably come a cropper, even Pegler and MacAlpine who knew a bit about steam engines and had a fair idea what they were getting into, because the engine was a clapped out bag of nails moneypit, the reason BR took it out of service for scrap in 1963.  Pegler paid a scrap price for it and got what he paid for.

 

Alan Pegler was a businessman, and a successful one at that, and had an eye to what he could sell to operate the loco as a running proposition; this being the cachet and fame of the name, probably then the only locomotive name that was known in every household in the land, and still is.  He was ultimately wrong and it broke him;  I remember a conversation with him on the Festiniog (period spelling) in 1969 in which he said that it was like shovelling £10 notes into the firebox. It broke MacAlpine as well.  The enthusiast notoriety did not really kick in until post-August '68, when it was the only working steam engine allowed on BR for some time until KGV broke the ban in '71.  By that time the preservation movement was gaining traction (literally and figuratively) and it had been proved that restoration from Barry condition was possible.

 

I'm not sad he saved it, but really think it should have been retired from active service by the NRM when they aquired it and cosmetically restored to museum condition; the money spent on restoring it to 'new' condition and running it could have been spent better IMHO.  There are sufficient big pacifics available for the railtour market.  That said, that aforementioned cachet itself generated cash that would not have existed otherwise!  My enjoyment of seeing it running is marred by this awareness, but not destroyed entirely!  I'd go on a free bus ride with my bus pass (tx, WAG) to see it, but not a two-bus ride...

 

 

The Flying Scotsman was 'saved' more than 50 years ago and STILL the argument reigns over whether it should have been. When NRM took over, it had been a working preserved loco for many years and almost uniquely visited 3 continents (I believe that the last replica Rocket has visited more countries).

The fact that FS is regularly gathering crowds, does in fact mean that it is better out on the tracks, rather than stuffed and mounted. Would people turn out to see it in that condition - hardly. You can't write FS off.

There are already hundreds of locos in this condition, not just Pacific's.
 

Yes, restoring and running a mainline locomotive is highly expensive, those that do so should be well aware of this unavoidable FACT, before they do their bank transfer to buy one. I have no sympathy for those that start complaining!

 

As for not doing two bus trips to see it, I'm sure everyone is devastated in your lack of interest! I have seen FS in two countries, the UK and here in Australia. While not a particular fan of the LNER, I still paid up to travel behind it in 1988, when it was here, as did many others.

 

As you can read here, the FS was NOT the first choice, Mallard & Duchess of Hamilton, where on the list. The latter would have been far better, IMO!

 

https://tdu.to/111715.msg

[Steamport Southport]

50 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

The Flying Scotsman was 'saved' more than 50 years ago and STILL the argument reigns over whether it should have been. When NRM took over, it had been a working preserved loco for many years and almost uniquely visited 3 continents (I believe that the last replica Rocket has visited more countries).

The fact that FS is regularly gathering crowds, does in fact mean that it is better out on the tracks, rather than stuffed and mounted. Would people turn out to see it in that condition - hardly. You can't write FS off.

There are already hundreds of locos in this condition, not just Pacific's.
 

Yes, restoring and running a mainline locomotive is highly expensive, those that do so should be well aware of this unavoidable FACT, before they do their bank transfer to buy one. I have no sympathy for those that start complaining!

 

As for not doing two bus trips to see it, I'm sure everyone is devastated in your lack of interest! I have seen FS in two countries, the UK and here in Australia. While not a particular fan of the LNER, I still paid up to travel behind it in 1988, when it was here, as did many others.

 

As you can read here, the FS was NOT the first choice, Mallard & Duchess of Hamilton, where on the list. The latter would have been far better, IMO!

 

https://tdu.to/111715.msg

 

The problem is it could have done (and did) all those things by being owned by someone else rather than the taxpayer. 

 

I blame the media, politicians and certain businessmen for putting their oar in demanding it should be "saved for the nation". That probably stopped a private buyer bidding for it.

 

 

How much has it cost since saving? £20 million plus ISTR.....

 

Besides, isn't this the most famous engine? 

 

 

it's the one in all the school text books and is part of the National Curriculum, and has had more replicas of it built than anything else, there are at least three in the US alone. It was even on our banknotes for years!

[kevinlms]

40 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The problem is it could have done (and did) all those things by being owned by someone else rather than the taxpayer. 

 

I blame the media, politicians and certain businessmen for putting their oar in demanding it should be "saved for the nation". That probably stopped a private buyer bidding for it.

 

 

How much has it cost since saving? £20 million plus ISTR.....

 

Besides, isn't this the most famous engine? 

 

 

it's the one in all the school text books and is part of the National Curriculum, and has had more replicas of it built than anything else, there are at least three in the US alone. It was even on our banknotes for years!

How many locos does the NRM own?

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The problem is it could have done (and did) all those things by being owned by someone else rather than the taxpayer. 

 

I blame the media, politicians and certain businessmen for putting their oar in demanding it should be "saved for the nation". That probably stopped a private buyer bidding for it.

 

 

How much has it cost since saving? £20 million plus ISTR.....

 

 

Perhaps, but FS did for the fortunes of more than one previously wealthy private owner before that and might have got a couple more but for them being savvy enough to get out from under in time!

 

It was only the NRM eventually admitting its condition was way above their pay grade and "getting a proper man in" that finally delivered the dependable machine we can see today (always supposing we want to).

 

Cost wise, though, it's almost certainly had enough money thrown at it by its various post-BR owners to have funded building at least two new ones....

Edited June 15, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

How many locos does the NRM own?

Should qualify that - how many operational locomotives does the NRM own.

[Steamport Southport]

39 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

How many locos does the NRM own?

 

No idea, vague guide here.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rolling_stock_items_in_the_UK_National_Collection

 

 

Hardly anything of note is actually in the NRM, they are all dotted around the country. That fantastic museum from the 1970s and 1980s is long gone I'm afraid.

 

The days of going there and all the famous locomotives from the books were lined up around the turntable?

 

Now that was a museum!