RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted April 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2015 You are correct about the porthole brake. The revised version arrives soon.However,I think you are wide of the mark with regard to criticism of manufacturers. They have come in for a great deal of stick recently.....in particular Bachmann..... as I think you are aware. There are reasons for this and they have been well documented in many other quarters.We are having to pay extra for the increased cost of manufacturing in China after many years of buying quality models at low cost. There is a curious ambivalence about us as members of this forum. We desire and get better quality,e.g. the new E4 but still want to pay pre recession prices.Times have changed. Read Jason Shron's article in the new edition of Model Rail for a revealing snapshot of the difficulties of distance manufacturing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted April 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 9, 2015 Thanks Ian, yes as you know I'm one of the more critical ones re Bachmann pricing. Without going into that again, I think Hattons have got to stop their price promises unless they have a clear undertaking from the manufacturer that they will get it at a certain price, which I believe is not forthcoming from Bachmann at the moment . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 People are prepared to pay a reasonable amount for high quality items. This is evidenced by the fact that the Bachmann Southern E4 sold out at the Swanage Station shop within a few days at a price of about £103 or £93.46 for members with a 10% discount. These prices are still below the recommended retail price of about £109 but if the Swanage Station shop had offered it at that price fewer people would have bought the model as they could have bought it more cheaply elsewhere. If a shop makes a promise to sell the item for £76.46, on condition that you pre-order it with that shop, you cannot blame the customer for accepting that offer. At that stage a binding contract has been made which is evidenced in writing. The customer has an obligation to pay £76.46 and the shop has an obligation to sell it at that price. Hattons were aware that Bachmann had increased its prices by an average of 20% before Hattons made the offer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted April 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2015 With respect Robin,I think sharp price increases have been sprung on Bachmann suddenly at,as it were,the factory gate. I think the story goes something like....you now play catch-up with rates we've been charging for your European HO (don't forget Bachmann market Liliput continental HO) or something similar.In effect,we've all been caught out and no one can really "carry the can" for the present situation. Hattons have been caught on the horns of one big dilemma and really can't afford to stand the loss. They do what they do and to be fair "nobody does it better" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rembrow Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 The issue of the Bachmann 'Porthole' coaches vis a vis the retail price increases and Hattons price guarantee has been quoted here a few times. My understanding from a response given by Andy York last year about the Bachmann retailer terms, was that the Porthole coaches were probably outside of those terms, having been announced before they were introduced. I must stress that this was his opinion but if correct does indicate why Hattons might have been able to sell them for less than the 15% retail discount, and presumably could still do on the Brake Third, which has not been released yet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted April 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 9, 2015 With respect Robin,I think sharp price increases have been sprung on Bachmann suddenly at,as it were,the factory gate. I think the story goes something like....you now play catch-up with rates we've been charging for your European HO (don't forget Bachmann market Liliput continental HO) or something similar.In effect,we've all been caught out and no one can really "carry the can" for the present situation. Hattons have been caught on the horns of one big dilemma and really can't afford to stand the loss. They do what they do and to be fair "nobody does it better" Funny I'm thinking Carly Simon now.......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 37 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Never had anything but excellent service from Hattons personally but can see why unexpected higher prices when the time comes to pay is unwelcome. I'm really looking forward to seeing the arrival of the ICI hoppers but even more interested to see how they stack up detail wise compared with a similar Bachmann offering. I completely understand Bachmanns price increases as they have explained it. BUT if something like this forthcoming ICI hopper stacks up against a similar Bachmann offering then I can see people starting to question the prices. Now I will still buy Bachmann products as on the whole they are excellent. The time may come though when other manufactures look at Bachmanns most popular products and think "well I could produce that at a fraction of the cost and sell loads". Could we possibly see a Polybulk from Oxford Rail for around the £40.00 mark? Interesting times ahead. Cheers Marcus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DropTheTap Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Now I will still buy Bachmann products as on the whole they are excellent. As will I. Just nowhere near as many of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DropTheTap Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Funny I'm thinking Carly Simon now.......... Oh, you're so vain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Anyone reading Kernows newsletter over the past few weeks will realise that pre ordering is very much a model railway thing and not a general habit of the retail trade, Kernow having failed to find a software provider that could cater for such and as such they are charging immediately on pre orders and then refunding when they realise that it is a pre order. If that is the case I can see pre orders disappearin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted April 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 10, 2015 Amazon offer pre-ordering on books, I have quite often ordered books months in advance of publishing on that site. So the concept of pre-ordering is not just a model railway thing. The problem railway retailers face as has been said is that it is difficult to anticipate what the prices will be, that is an argument for not advertising prices until they are in a position to be able to do so. The reason people are upset with Hattons is they made a pre-order guarantee when it was known that certain prices were to increase and then failed to honour that "guarantee". I don't think this is so much about contracts etc as it is about trust and confidence and trust in the supplier. On prices themselves, prices are what they are. Some Hattons prices are very attractive, some are not particularly attractive. You also have to consider service, choice etc. If others undercut them on price or offer better service then shop elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I am very disappointed with Hattons' approach on this - I had a Farish 'Cumbrian Mountain' train pack on order. I don't like the idea that a pre-order becomes a blank cheque if I happen to miss an email. I have cancelled my long-standing pre-order and will give my local shop the business as and when it finally shows up. Maybe it feels worse because it's one of those Farish products that has been advertised for what seems like a very, very long time now. If your resources are limited, you can't afford for Hattons to take whatever they deem the new price to be, whenever the goods finally appear in the country. Too great a risk of being 'caught short', and the young lady I spoke to in Liverpool when I cancelled seemed sympathetic to that and suggested I am not the only one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted April 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 10, 2015 In fairness to Hattons the prices of Hornby and Bachmann models has increased significantly in recent years. If they offered a pre-order guarantee based on a supplier advising a price of say £100 then when it is finally released the price has risen to say £130 then I wouldn't complain about them increasing their prices providing they allow me to cancel. If however the price was known to be rising to £130 before I placed an order and with a pre-order price guarantee then it is reasonable to expect that the retailer has based their pricing on that known price and are in a position to honour their advertised price. I think there are a couple of very different scenarios. I do not see any malice aforethought in Hattons, nothing sinister, it is just poor communications and being caught out by circumstances and making some rash offers I think but nevertheless it has been damaging for their reputation I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
napierlion Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 What I don't understand is why Hattons have announced pre order prices for items that Bachmann themselves haven't even decided a price on? I think the pre order price of the Midland Pullman Pack is far to low. I will be waiting until it is released before I decide if I am purchasing one and if I do i'll be going to my local model shop for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Interestingly, one of Bachmann's senior staff told me categorically what good value my ex-preorder was, quoting a price that was close to what Hattons promised. Moral of the story is if you aren't in a position to promise something, don't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I don't think that the supply situation is as bad as it has been in the past. I just asked Hattons for notification of arrival until Hornby caught me out badly with the Maunsell Pull-Push saga. I am modelling the Swanage Railway and it was a must have model. By the time I received a notification of arrival they had sold out everywhere and I had to wait about 18 months before I got one. I also missed out on a second production run to local shops like Platform Models in Poole because I had pre-ordered two of the second version from Rails and Hattons so I had already committed myself to buying two sets. I have pre-ordered three versions of the Hornby 700s as they are must have models in case they are in short supply. I don't think there is any point in pre-ordering the Adams Radials. If demand is high for an Oxfordrail model they will simply do another production run or I could wait for Hornby's version. Oxford Diecast do second runs of popular cars. The playing field is also level now and local model shops are now offering items at the similar prices to Hattons so when I receive a notification from Hattons I can either wait and do a bulk order from Hattons to save postage or call in at my local model railway shop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 It is immensely damaging for a retailer to make a promise he cannot keep. Many years ago the manager of my local model railway shop came up to me and told me that he would match Hattons' prices. When a batch of Merchant Navy Pacifics arrived he told me that I would have to pay the full retail price less my member's discount as he had no difficulty selling them. This was a lot more than Hattons' price but he told me that he could not possibly match that. From then onwards I bought everything from Hattons until he left and was replaced by staff who treated their customers with more respect. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Ivo Peter's 1:43 scale Bentley Mk Vl made by Oxford has arrived from Hattons. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Vistisen Posted April 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 11, 2015 Just ordered again from Hattons. Why? 100% reliability, and VERY cheap postage prices for Denmark, compared to some other website where you would think they were sending stuff to Mars. the record was a website who was going to charge me £24 in postage for a Hornby Catalogue! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted April 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2015 I ordered £300+ of Peco track yesterday approx 11am (including 2 boxes of 25yds of rail which RM won't take these days). No real choice but to use Yodel......... Goods delivered 1:15pm here in West Wales. Well done Hattons and Yodel. (If I'd lived closer to Aberystwyth depot they mau have been here within 24 hours - I didn't pay for 24 hour super-duper service) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leavesontheline Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Hattons have launched a project update list showing how far manufacturers have progressed with their models. I thought Hornby had progressed beyond simply announcing the class 700 in December 2013. I noticed this anomaly on the Hattons project list too - we have already had a hand-decorated running sample back in September - was it at RMWeb Live? (and Warley maybe?) - and fully decorated body samples back in October. So obviously much further on than Hattons seem to think. The estimated delivery date was about March/April for a long time but I notice that this has now slipped to June on the Hornby website. How times have changed - Hornby actually have more accurate (we presume!) product information on their website than Hattons! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 The word yodel fills me with fear. All my deliveries from them have been poor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Market65 Posted April 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 22, 2015 Hi. I don't know if it's just me, but I'm cuurently having difficulty accessing the ehattons.com website. It's taking about 8 minutes get a page to load, where as beforehand about 2 or 3 seconds. I'm wondering if there maybe a server issue. Anyway, I think I shall be contacting Hattons tomorrow and see what they say about this issue. All the best., Market65. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
airwimp075 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) I thought it was my mobile handset or wireless router playing up, however, every other page i've tried is loading as always. I gave in trying and ill try again tomorrow. The hattons.co.uk homepage loaded fine though. Jason Edit: All pages selected on hattons.co.uk loaded fine, hopefully this version of the site will help those who want to view their stuff tonight/tomorrow. Edited April 22, 2015 by airwimp075 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Market65 Posted April 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 22, 2015 Hi, airwimp075. Thank you for saying about the problems you've been experiencing as well. It is good to know that I am not the only one! All the best, Market65. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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