Hattons Model Railways of Widnes (formerly Liverpool).

[Free At Last]

Robin Brasher, on 30 Mar 2015 - 18:00, said:

You may recall that after Bachmann announced that the prices would rise by an average of 20% Hattons offered to take pre-orders at the original price provided that the orders were sent before their deadline.

 

I remember this offer and I ordered six of the Porthole Coaches to beat the increase, one (39-460) of which still hasn't been delivered. I recently received a note from Hattons saying...

 

"I am writing to you regarding an item that you have on pre-order.

Whilst we endeavour to maintain original pre-order prices wherever possible, unfortunately on this occasion, due to Bachmann’s decision to raise their RRP on this item we have had to amend our price in accordance.

I hope this doesn’t cause any inconvenience but please feel free to contact us if you wish to amend or cancel this order."[/size]

 

      ...but Bachmann have not increased the price since the original increase that the offer was intended to beat so surely the original price should still apply.

If it had have been delivered on time with the rest of them and not been delayed due to a packaging issue it would have been the original price.

[Tase]

Regarding my order for a Bachmann E4 0-6-2T with Hattons at a price of £76.46, for which they are now charging £93.46 plus £4 postage, my credit card company will make an altered amount claim against E-Hattons when they receive the paperwork from me. There is no minimum limit for this.

 

I hope this helps others in a similar position.

I've never heard of an 'altered amount claim'. So, does the credit card company simply refund the difference without question?

[brushman47544]

I can't really blame Hatton's for not maintaining their pre-order prices when Bachmann's prices have rocketed and they impose a maximum initial discount, but I would like to think they would still offer some sort of discount compared to the new standard price, to reward loyalty for maintaining a pre-order and encourage future pre-orders. Kernow MRC did just that with my E4, so I will probably now pre-order anything I really want from them in future, rather than Hatton's or anyone else.

[JimHearne]

It seems the Hattons pre-order credit card details update bug is still present.

I just had an email saying that my pre-order of a Hornby coach hadn't been shipped due to a problem with the credit card details.

I checked and they are all correct, i updated them on one order a month ago when it expired and the Hattons web site showed it as changed on all my other pre-orders.

Still, it gave me a chance to compare the price with direct from Hornby, and with my Hornby members 10% discount it was £35.99 with free delivery instead of £37 + £4 shipping from Hattons.

 

No prizes for guessing what i did next.

 

Jim

[Robin Brasher]

I did not get anywhere with trying to persuade Hattons to honour the pre-order price of £76.46 for my Bachmann E4 0-6-2T in Southern Green. Neither Rails of Sheffield nor Platform Models had any in stock yet so I felt resigned to paying Hattons' revised price of £97.46 including postage.

 

As I returned from shopping I called in at Swanage Station shop and was amazed to find that it had some E4s in stock and was selling them for £93.46 including my life membership discount of 10%. Hattons have now cancelled my order and refunded my money. Tomorrow I will be able to buy the E4 and take it home straight away without having to worry about staying in to wait for a delivery.

 

In the past the Swanage Railway had charged the recommended retail price and the 10% discount for members was well above the amount Hattons were charging. Locomotives were remaining on the shelves for months if not years. Now it looks like the Swanage Railway Shop is competitive. It looks like the advice to support my local shop will benefit both parties.

 

With the increases in prices I wonder if the E4s will cost £200 in five years time and people will look back to the good old days when they cost less than £100.

 

[napierlion]

I did not get anywhere with trying to persuade Hattons to honour the pre-order price of £76.46 for my Bachmann E4 0-6-2T in Southern Green. Neither Rails of Sheffield nor Platform Models had any in stock yet so I felt resigned to paying Hattons' revised price of £97.46 including postage.

 

As I returned from shopping I called in at Swanage Station shop and was amazed to find that it had some E4s in stock and was selling them for £93.46 including my life membership discount of 10%. Hattons have now cancelled my order and refunded my money. Tomorrow I will be able to buy the E4 and take it home straight away without having to worry about staying in to wait for a delivery.

 

In the past the Swanage Railway had charged the recommended retail price and the 10% discount for members was well above the amount Hattons were charging. Locomotives were remaining on the shelves for months if not years. Now it looks like the Swanage Railway Shop is competitive. It looks like the advice to support my local shop will benefit both parties.

 

With the increases in prices I wonder if the E4s will cost £200 in five years time and people will look back to the good old days when they cost less than £100.

as i said in one of my previous posts, don't just use the big boys, go local. You'll find many independent model shops charge the same as the big boys and in some cases less. If we don't support local model shops the overall result will be just the big boys left and they will be able to charge what ever they want as there will be little if any competition. 

[Robin Brasher]

My credit card company has put a flag against Hattons so it will contact me before Hattons deduct any more money from my account in future transactions. It has also asked me to forward the correspondence in the Bachmann E4 transaction to their billing enquiries section although the transaction has been cancelled and Hattons have said that they have refunded the money. The credit card company told me that Hattons have not refunded it but I am sure they will do soon.

 

I think that the price gap between Hattons and my local model shops is narrowing. Platform Models is one of my nearest shops after the Swanage Station shop. It is offering a 10% discount and after taking the cost of postage into account the difference in price for the E4 is negligible. I think you will find that the local model shops are making a comeback now that they are offering discounts as people prefer the personal contact as long as the assistant shows an interest in the customer.

[brushman47544]

In the past the Swanage Railway had charged the recommended retail price and the 10% discount for members was well above the amount Hattons were charging. Locomotives were remaining on the shelves for months if not years. Now it looks like the Swanage Railway Shop is competitive. It looks like the advice to support my local shop will benefit both parties.

It's certainly good to see local model shops being more competitive. Being abroad I mostly use box shifters with a good record on sending by post. But they often sell out relatively quickly and models from a few years ago aren't available, whereas a "local" retailer may still have them. I'm sure there's a mint boxed Bachmann class 37251 ref 32-781 out there somewhere... (no I'm not paying Olivia's Trains inflated price of £99).

[caradoc]

Using a local model shop is fine if you have one ! Here, in Glasgow, one of Britain's largest cities, there are two, Waddell's Models in Bell St and Modelzone at WH Smith in Sauchiehall St, neither of which has a particularly good range in stock, with at Smith's the added hassle of finding someone to unlock a glass cabinet if you want a medium or high priced item. Personally I have never pre-ordered from Hatton's, because I prefer to order a number of items at a time. Hattons and their ilk generally provide an excellent service. Is it reasonable to expect them to sell items at a loss because the manufacturer has increased their prices ?

[Free At Last]

Is it reasonable to expect them to sell items at a loss because the manufacturer has increased their prices ?

I agree but, Hattons made an offer to beat the increased prices if you ordered before a deadline they gave.

It appears they have now reneged on that offer.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Free At Last

[Robin Brasher]

I would point out that Hattons made the offer after Bachmann increased their prices by 20%. Whether Hattons would make a loss by selling the engine at £76.46 when the recommended retail price is £109.95 depends upon what their mark up is. The price of £76.46 was not put on by mistake. It was a considered decision to attract business away from their competitors.

 

In any event my credit card company wants to investigate what has happened so I have forwarded the correspondence to them. I have not cancelled my pre-orders for an E4 in LB&SCR umber for £76.46, a parcels van for £16.11 and a Graham Farish Merchant Navy for £127.46 and it is possible that the credit card company will enforce my contract.

 

Meanwhile the Swanage Railway shop has received a batch of Hornby Pull-Push sets that it is offering to sell with my 10% discount for the same price as Hattons. I will give you three guesses about where I will buy it from and I bet you will be right first time.

[acko22]

I can't and won't totally call Hattons everything under the sun, as you can get some bargins there which I keep an eye and do get.

 

But for stuff that isn't on offer well I will always shop around, more and more I am finding that prices are becoming equal across the board and Hattons are no cheaper.

My local model shop (Waltons) actually have beaten Hattons on a good few occasions and I haven't full ticket price on a good few things.

 

My Dad got me a OO gauge Northern Bell 47 for my Birthday from Waltons for a Bloody great price, but alas I am N gauge, I took it back without a receipt and there was no issues, but tried it with Hattons (for a model that wasn't as it first looked) one time and was told sorry but we have no record all we can do is offer you second hand fair to say I was rather P***** off and said well I have a credit card bill and the packaging it was delivered in that has your details and a receipt so I want my money back.

To make sure I had no more issues I went to Hattons shop (60 mile round trip) when I got there I was told that they had it on record and I could have returned it as normal as it was unopened fair to say I was rather annoyed.

 

Plus with the entire Pre Order Saga well I won't be doing that any time soon and have cancelled all 7 of mine as I don't want to get stung and would rather wait and get it when it's in stock and then I know what I am paying upfront and can change my mind when I have in my hand before handing over my cash.

 

While Hattons offer a good postal service in general for those who are unable to get to a model shop for what ever reason, and taking into account the Bachman / Farish price increases I honestly don't think they have much to offer compared to smaller model shops anymore.  They have simply out grown themselves it's pure business now and no longer a shop run by a modeller which has meant the service is not what it once was!

[Robin Brasher]

I think Hattons has done a good service for us because it has forced other shops to reduce their prices. When I began the hobby in the 1950s all shops simply sold at the recommended retail price. Then Hattons put advertisements in magazines like the Railway Modeller offering to sell Hornby-Dublo items in the 1960s at discounted prices and I bought a rake of Pullmans and an EMU from them that I would not have been able to afford at my nearest model shop at West Wickham that would not sell anything at a discount and eventually closed.

 

The Swanage Railway shop which is now only 10 minutes walk away also sold items at the recommended retail price and stopped selling model railway items last year because it sold at the recommended retail price or a 10% discount for members. It was still cheaper to buy from Hattons and people were buying items from Hattons.

 

Now the Swanage Railway Shop and other local retailers have woken up to the fact that they need to sell items at a discount to match Hattons prices including postage. The Swanage Railway Shop has now gone back into selling model railways with a vengeance and is now selling goods at prices competitive with Hattons. Meanwhile the standard of service at Hattons seems to have declined with items requested to be sent by Royal Mail being sent by Yodel and the recent failure to honour a pre-order agreement.

 

Ironically I stopped using my local shop about 10 years ago and did my business with Hattons because a previous manager visited me at work and offered to sell me a Hornby Merchant Navy at a price matching Hattons. When I called at the shop he told me that I would have to pay the full retail price less the 10% discount because he could not match Hattons' prices and he had no difficulty selling the Merchant Navies at the full retail price. He told me that if I did not want it at that price he had plenty of other customers who did and he had already sold 50. Now the wheel of Nemesis has turned full circle and I am back with my local shop run by a manager who takes an interest in her customers,gives excellent service and is selling items to members at prices matching Hattons.

[Kris]

I would point out that Hattons made the offer after Bachmann increased their prices by 20%. Whether Hattons would make a loss by selling the engine at £76.46 when the recommended retail price is £109.95 depends upon what their mark up is. The price of £76.46 was not put on by mistake. It was a considered decision to attract business away from their competitors.

Not only did they do this but they did so in the knowledge that Bachmann would be making further price increases of the same amount at regular intervals. 

[acko22]

Robin,

 

I think you are right things have come full circle, while I don't know the full story I know Hattons WAS a family business with an interest in modelling as to these days I don't know but from the outside it seems not to be the case anymore.

Where as the smaller shops such as Waltons in my case there is an interest in modelling so (I can never remember his name) the owner of Waltons not only wants a business and to compete with the likes of Hattons, so he has a genuine understanding of our needs and gives a damn and the service is spot on!

 

In a few respects I think Hattons is going down the same road as Modelzone and we all know how that's ended out! As daft as it sounds retail wise modelling is better for the most part (in a number of cases not really applicable I know) in the traditional ways small private businesses that are happy and not trying to out grow themselves as Hattons appears to be doing!

 

The ones where you get some one who knows what they are talking about cares about their customers and well let face it everyone is on interent these days so you can always have a quick nosey elsewhere if you really want.

[rembrow]

The unknown factor here is the possible pressure from Bachmann on Hattons to maintain their (Bachmann's) retail pricing policy of a sale price discounted by no more than 15% on new issued items. Hattons indicated this to me when I queried e-mails I had from them similar to other members, on pre-order price increases. For one item, the remaining Porthole 57ft Brake 3rd, I argued that there had been no further price increase by Bachmann this year, so couldn't understand why they were quoting price increases when they had been prepared to absorb them last year on that coach. It was at that point that the Bachmann pricing policy was stated, and while this may be a justification, it does indicate background pressure from Bachmann, as they wouldn't want a major retailer continuing to breach that policy. In respect of the Porthole Brake Third I had an e-mail from Hattons last year where they specifically advised me that they would maintain my pre-order price of £27, I quoted that to them and they have agreed to honour that statement and price, but as a refund to my credit card. I couldn't get agreement on other pre-order prices as I had only got a specific agreement on the one item. I have cancelled most of my other Bachmann pre-orders, not specifically as a disagreement with Hattons, but more about the unceretainty of what the prices will be when Bachmann finally produce them.

[oreamnos]

 [edit]

 

In a few respects I think Hattons is going down the same road as Modelzone and we all know how that's ended out! As daft as it sounds retail wise modelling is better for the most part (in a number of cases not really applicable I know) in the traditional ways small private businesses that are happy and not trying to out grow themselves as Hattons appears to be doing!

 

[edit]

 

I disagree with the Modelzone analogy.  Modelzone was a multistore chain with high overhead in rents and staff in multiple locations and from what I've read it's pricing was not particularly competitve.  It also tried to cater to all interests and consequently was a master of none.  Hattons have the one shop and a warehouse and have kept its business focus comparatively narrow.

 

The one thing I do wonder about is its venture into the "pre-owned" market.  I model N and I have (happily) found some out of production items and also some recently released items at bargain prices which I have bought and have been satisfied with.  However, the vast majority of pre-owned N gauge items on offer are hardly bargain priced and many of them are from the "bad old days" of N, to boot.  Compared to its N gauge pre-owned, the amount of preowned OO stuff listed each day seems huge.  Since I'm not an OO modeller I can't assess the value of those pre-owned OO items, but if it's as low as the majority of the N gauge items it would seem to me that Hattons are taking into inventory a huge amount of product that nobody will ever buy.

 

I acknowlege that perhaps this is an illusion if Hattons is simply relisting preowned OO gauge items listed months back but still unsold.  I haven't noticed it ever relisting any of its preowned N gauge stuff to spark sales.

 

Matt

[david12345]

Using a local model shop is fine if you have one ! Here, in Glasgow, one of Britain's largest cities, there are two, Waddell's Models in Bell St and Modelzone at WH Smith in Sauchiehall St, neither of which has a particularly good range in stock, with at Smith's the added hassle of finding someone to unlock a glass cabinet if you want a medium or high priced item. Personally I have never pre-ordered from Hatton's, because I prefer to order a number of items at a time. Hattons and their ilk generally provide an excellent service. Is it reasonable to expect them to sell items at a loss because the manufacturer has increased their prices ?

At the risk of going off topic I was just pondering over this fact last week as I tried to get a Hornby Dutch brake van. Waddells no longer seem to be an authorised Hornby stockist and Modelzone didn't have anything modern image. So now have ordered from Hattons. Disappointing range of model shops in Glasgow now.

[Robin Brasher]

Apart from the Pre-ordering Saga Hattons have been very good and their mail service is excellent for people that do not have access to a local model shop. I have been a regular customer for 50 years Even if there is a local model shop it may be better to use Hattons. My second nearest shop is full of notices saying things like we do not value second hand items, sorry don't take large bags beyond this point and we don't exchange unwanted goods. Not an experience to look forward to after a bus journey of over an hour.

 

The public seems to have got misconceptions about Hattons' prices believing them to be cheaper than a local model shop. This afternoon I bought a Hornby Maunsell Pull Push set from the Swanage Station Shop. When I was having a look at it on the train a man came up to me and told me that was a very expensive way of buying it. He said it cost £77.22 in the station shop whereas I could have got it from Hattons for £54. This morning Hattons sent me a newsletter offering it for sale for £69.50 plus £4 postage. With my 10% member's discount I paid £69.50 at the Station Shop which is cheaper than Hattons taking into account the postage. The manageress also knew that the Maunsell Set 608 I bought was used on the Swanage Railway and that the Railway was restoring a similar set. She also recognised me although she had only been there for about a year whereas I don't think anyone at Hattons knows of my existence. I am very lucky to have such a good model shop only ten minutes walk away from my flat.

[Danemouth]

The public seems to have got misconceptions about Hattons' prices believing them to be cheaper than a local model shop. This afternoon I bought a Hornby Maunsell Pull Push set from the Swanage Station Shop. When I was having a look at it on the train a man came up to me and told me that was a very expensive way of buying it. He said it cost £77.22 in the station shop whereas I could have got it from Hattons for £54.

 

You are correct - recently bought a Bachmann 64xx at my local model shop (Lord & Butler) for £3 less than Hattons and as it was local I saw the loco run and had no postage to pay.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[jjb1970]

The bargains bit of Hattons still has some great offers but their regular sections are indeed matched or even bettered by a lot of independent shops. The one silver lining of the new Hornby terms for smaller retailers is that for Hornby at least it has effectively levelled the playing field whilst Bachmann have their initial pricing policy for the first few weeks after release. I won't criticise Hattons service as I have to say I've never had any reason to criticise and lots to praise, but I have to say I haven't used them that much in recent times simply because other sellers are competitive on price.

[Robin Brasher]

How long does Bachmann's restriction on not discounting over 15% last for? Is it two months?

[antrobuscp]

I have been a customer of Hattons for around 50 years. Their prices were originally the attraction as they did not, in their early years, stock the wider range of bits and accessories they do now. In those days I would go to other local model shops or to shows(or Mainly Trains) for such items. Hattons is now my local model shop as the alternatives have all closed. They no longer have as great a pricing advantage mostly, I guess, through the changed trading terms instituted by Bachmann and Hornby which have perhaps encouraged more realistic pricing across the board. In fact when these changed terms were announced I rather feared that the changes might more adversely affect the larger "box shifters" than the local model shops. On my recent visits to Hattons, the shop seems to be much quieter and with fewer staff.

 

My only personal complaint about the way Hattons have managed their pricing is over the Porthole Brake 3rd. I, and probably many others, ordered Porthole coaches in the belief that a lower price was guaranteed despite the known Bachmann price rise. Hattons, I think, specifically confirmed that as there was a "cut off" date for the offer.  I therefore feel rather miffed that this offer has not been honoured - if Bachmann are enforcing their price discounting rule, then in this specific case they should not as the delayed delivery is entirely their fault, not Hattons. I am not, however, going to fall out with Hattons or cancel other pre-orders over one hiccup in a 50 year relationship. I do think the handling of this particular pricing issue and possibly one or two others that do not directly affect me, will cost Hattons some goodwill that their initial actions sought to retain. I regard their actions as a response to changing times rather than a lack of integrity. Also, I note that at least one member of the Hatton family still seems to be in regular attendance.

[Slohcin]

I recently purchased a Bachmann Class 03 Shunter, 31-364, from my local shop (The Hobby Shop, Faversham) for £6.46 less than Hattons, and no postage.

[gordon1970]

I think the main problem  one of the problems is Hattons wording on their website.

 

I am sure they used to have a statement along the lines of "Price guaranteed (to be no higher) than", and also statements to the effect prices could change, or be lowered, etc.

 

If one looks at the Mk 2fs as an example, they have a price against them, and a few, in the description, say "Price estimated, we will contact you if this rises".

 

However, it doesn't say this on all the items which must have estimated prices (i.e. many of the Mk2s), then, when you click the product itself, you are shown

a "guaranteed" preorder price which (if you read the previous description) clearly can't be in any way guaranteed.

 

You could therefore see the estimated price caveat on one item, but if that wasn't what you were looking at, you wouldn't: you'd see "Guaranteed"

Edited April 4, 2015 by gordon1970