The future of loco kit building

[EHertsGER]

Just a little comment here about piercing saw practice; make sure your blade is tight, really tight - flicking it with a fingernail will give you a perfect pitch note if it is right. fear not if it is just off - but it must be a clear note. That way it will run true if, and only if it is sharp. Guy Williams - he of all knowledge worth having - states clearly in his bible that if it (the blade) misbehaves, bin it before it does any damage. Take it slow, as the blade will cut for you, don't force it. And for those of you who have yet to make it to Carnegie Hall, practice, practice, practice...

Good luck,

Best,

Marcus

..practice etc...not on a Slaters axle...try an old nail...

[hayfield]

Just to kick start this thread a bit, whilst I am now going to contradict my self before I start as I have just bought a Wills 4-4-0 County (untouched) + cast but bushed chassis + Romford 5 pole motor for 2/3rds of a new chassis as it was listed in the wrong category. Other than that there are so many kits not only on sale but selling for high prices on Ebay that there are plenty out there still building kits.

 

Now the problem may be that in the past so many kits were produced that were never built and that many like me tend to stockpile kits for that rainy day or project we have in mind. I think that with so many ranges being out of production many are buying these kits as an insurance policy rather than buying new from one of the current manufacturers, or rather build an old style whitemetal kit instead of a newer etched or composite one 

[PGC]

I don't know how I've missed this thread so far, but I have! I suspect what I say will have already been said, but I don't fancy reading through 47 pages to find out, so if I'm repeating someone else, apologies.

 

I've just bought a PDK kit for a BR ex GER J19/2. There are two reasons - no one does an R-T-R model and I enjoy building kits. I'm just about to paint a Pocket Money kit for an LNER Y7 0-4-0T. The reasons for buying it and building it are exactly the same as the J19. Extending both of these reasons to members of the general modelling community, I suspect kits will continue in to the future for a long time.

 

I started to read the thread until I realised how many pages there were when I gave up, but I did see a few posts about the variety of materials that kits can be provided in. One needs to remember that some kit producers are masters of their art, some are not! For example, would one compare London Road Models, Dave Bradwell or High Level kits, as just a few examples of very good etched kit manufacturers, favourably with Jidenco kits? There will be good and bad manufacturers of kits in all mediums, and the one thing I do feel confident about is that natural selection will take it's toll on the poor manufacturers while the better manufacturers will remain for a long time.

 

Phil

[JeffP]

Maybe, maybe not.

 

Both Javelin and Gladiator models are very good, but Javelin has already gone and Gladiator going by 2015.

 

My GUESS is that because they were pretty good, had a large range and were relatively expensive, (you get what you pay for), no-one can afford to pick them up as a going concern?

 

Meanwhile, Right Price kits has a new owner...at least for some of their models.

[Kenton]

 

My GUESS is that because they were pretty good, had a large range and were relatively expensive, (you get what you pay for), no-one can afford to pick them up as a going concern?

 

OK only a guess, and one I'll subscribe to, but the range is very big (possibly too big); good but now a little dated (still commands respect and custom); and as so often the price will not be right for someone to come on down and buy outright from scratch. It would be a major loss not to see this one bounce over the hurdle and continue to be available in dome form or another.

[jjb1970]

I think 3D printing is the future of niche models, the technology is improving all the time and it offers some commercial attractions in terms of inventory management and longevity in de-coupling the process from expensive tooling and series manufacture, although the printing hardware isn't cheap either. There could also be a move towards more home made efforts as if you have the software and skills you could develop your idea and then send it to somebody offering to print off the model for a fee. I've seen some model ships made from 3D printing that were excellent and as good as I've seen in other media. I've never really gotten into model railway kits, I make a lot of military figure and vehicle kits and aircraft kits but have never really gotten into railway kits.

[hayfield]

I think 3D printing is the future of niche models, the technology is improving all the time and it offers some commercial attractions in terms of inventory management and longevity in de-coupling the process from expensive tooling and series manufacture, although the printing hardware isn't cheap either. There could also be a move towards more home made efforts as if you have the software and skills you could develop your idea and then send it to somebody offering to print off the model for a fee. I've seen some model ships made from 3D printing that were excellent and as good as I've seen in other media. I've never really gotten into model railway kits, I make a lot of military figure and vehicle kits and aircraft kits but have never really gotten into railway kits.

 

 

But is a 3D print a kit? or a model that needs finishing. Not having a go at 3D prints and I guess some may need a lot of detailing. Not like the kits we are used to either in plastic, whitemetal or brass

[jjb1970]

I think it depends on the complexity, you can do simple shapes which are effectively a model needing painting but locomotives and rolling stock are likely to be printed kits, at least for quite a while. I think it will certainly be a change and different, but that is the way of all things, to change.

[Jol Wilkinson]

3D printing has the disadvantage that it still an expensive and slow process and not suited to series production. As the quality improves (and if cost reduces) then it will be more viable. At present it is best suited to producing patterns for resin casting.

 

Etched brass or n/s remains the best technique at present, in my view. Low tool cost, low production volume, high quality (if well designed). Relatively small castings are required to compliment etched kits, so low pattern coosts, low tool costs and small volume/low cost production.

 

Of course the less experienced builder will seek the simplest kit approach, but it may not produce the best results e.g. cast w/m compared to etched brass.

 

As is being discussed in another thread, having the software skills doesn't automatically mean you know how to design a kit, what are the best materials to use for specific items, etc.

[jjb1970]

I see 3D printing as having similarities with the digital photography debate 20 years ago. First and second generation digital cameras were pretty dire compared to 35mm film never mind medium format and in the early days of digital many believed it'd never replace film, or at least not for a long time. The pace of the transition and the improvements in digital imaging were quite a shock to many I think. Early 3D printing was a bit crude but certainly in industrial terms the technology is really improving very rapidly.

[Harrogate009]

My personal view is that kits, although in there hayday now, will begin to slowly fade, and scratch building even more so.

 

My reasoning for this?

 

Because the young generation like me (The future of modelling, I guess) are surrounded by models that they can take out of the box and will work almost perfectly, instead of building something that takes a lot of fiddling to get right. RTR models just seem, easier to us. As well as this, the skills of building in our generation are weak. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all young people are rubbish builders or none of us embark on a little scratchbuild project. Nelson on this forum, for example - only a tad older then me but produces some outstanding modelling. I for one have already got the kit building bug with the RT models 009 peckett and now moving onto the sratchbuilding bug. Some of us are infected, but yet some of us aren't - they see the RTR stuff easier and, with the gradual loss of technical skills, better quality. 

 

My view - please feel free to disagree if you will.

 

J.

[Jol Wilkinson]

J,

 

a realistic view.

 

Just looking at this forum shows that the majority of kit/scratchbuilding seems to be in 7mm, which does not have the wealth of (relatively) cheap RTR product available.

 

However, I know many 4mm modellers, all kit builders, who don't frequent RMweb, so the picture we see here may not be entirely representative.

 

Jol

[N15class]

My personal view is that kits, although in there hayday now, will begin to slowly fade, and scratch building even more so.

 

My reasoning for this?

 

Because the young generation like me (The future of modelling, I guess) are surrounded by models that they can take out of the box and will work almost perfectly, instead of building something that takes a lot of fiddling to get right. RTR models just seem, easier to us. As well as this, the skills of building in our generation are weak. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all young people are rubbish builders or none of us embark on a little scratchbuild project. Nelson on this forum, for example - only a tad older then me but produces some outstanding modelling. I for one have already got the kit building bug with the RT models 009 peckett and now moving onto the sratchbuilding bug. Some of us are infected, but yet some of us aren't - they see the RTR stuff easier and, with the gradual loss of technical skills, better quality. 

 

My view - please feel free to disagree if you will.

 

J.

Can you class opening a box as modelling? I don't think so. There will always be those who want more and are willing to build. Look at boat and airplane modellers, still lots of kits being made. I think it is people are spoiled at the moment with RTR a bad year or two and costs going up a £150  oo kit will not look so bad. China will not be a cheap place for production much longer.

[Kenton]

 

I think 3D printing is the future of niche models, the technology is improving all the time and it offers some commercial attractions in terms of inventory management and longevity in de-coupling the process from expensive tooling and series manufacture, although the printing hardware isn't cheap either. There could also be a move towards more home made efforts as if you have the software and skills you could develop your idea and then send it to somebody offering to print off the model for a fee. I've seen some model ships made from 3D printing that were excellent and as good as I've seen in other media. I've never really gotten into model railway kits, I make a lot of military figure and vehicle kits and aircraft kits but have never really gotten into railway kits.

I disagree.

While there is a growing place for 3D printing in modelling it is certainly not a kit and does not bring the satisfaction of building a metal kit from an essentially 2D flat into a 3D representation of a prototype. I enjoy, as so do many others, the forming of metal and joining those forms together by soldering. I have no interest in 3D printing with the one exception of its potential to form masters or better still moulds for metal casting.

 

I am sure that there are a growing number of folk interested in making models using 3D printing, just as there are many who enjoy making plastic kits - yet another variety added to the hobby as a whole - but 3D printing will never replace metal kits as it is the experience of building them not so much the end result that drives their popularity.

 

 

Can you class opening a box as modelling?

Well yes, I certainly do. It probably depends where you draw a line in the sand. I construct kits, and generally have little interest in them beyond their construction. I hardly ever paint them and they run on other people's layouts - because finishing a layout just doesn't get the time devoted to it. So the person who commissions me to construct the kit opens the box (after having it painted) and is effectively buying RTR. Some of them actually run them on layouts where the modelling is good.

 

Do you do DCC? Do you open a box and fit a chip - do you call that modelling? Do you buy in couplings/figures/ballast or is only someone who makes everything from the elements entitled to call themselves a modeller?

[jjb1970]

I think it comes down to why you want a kit. I build plastic and resin kits of military figures and vehicles for the pleasure I get from building and painting them so I'll always want kits no matter how good diecast models and toy soldiers become. However a lot of the challenge and satisfaction is in painting and finishing for which the pleasure is just as great for a 3D printed model (or indeed, re-finishing a RTR model) as for a kit. I certainly agree there will always be people who build kits for the pleasure they get from kit building but I also think there are an awful lot of people for whom kits are a means to an end, a way of getting a model not available RTR. For those people I think 3D will increasingly be the future. Especially when considering that as more models are made in good RTR form kit manufacturers are probably facing more and more obscure types, especially in modern image diesels (admittedly modern diesels are not a big kit market anyway). As kit manufacturers look at more niche prototypes the advantages of only having to make a model if it is ordered, without having to make expensive moulds and tools may make the difference between a revitalised "kit" market and that part of the hobby continuing to shrink.

[Horsetan]

Can you class opening a box as modelling? I don't think so. ....

It is if it's a kit box. It's not just modelling, it's going on a journey.

[N15class]

 

  Well yes, I certainly do. It probably depends where you draw a line in the sand. I construct kits, and generally have little interest in them beyond their construction. I hardly ever paint them and they run on other people's layouts - because finishing a layout just doesn't get the time devoted to it. So the person who commissions me to construct the kit opens the box (after having it painted) and is effectively buying RTR. Some of them actually run them on layouts where the modelling is good.

 

Do you do DCC? Do you open a box and fit a chip - do you call that modelling? Do you buy in couplings/figures/ballast or is only someone who makes everything from the elements entitled to call themselves a modeller?

The reply was to RTR products. I am with you I mainly build kits and scratch models. Very rarely have I played with them. I would like to have an all round skill to set the scene on a layout.

 

But for me the future of kit building is good. As there are many out there who want to model a particular era or place, and want to run their models as per the prototype, and not as a Bachman, or Hornby product display.

[t-b-g]

To me, one of the problems with modern RTR stuff is that it is so good that people can now build a perfectly good layout using totally RTR products.

 

The problem is that it is killing off individuality and creativity as far as the loco and rolling stock are concerned.

 

Many layouts in the press or at exhibitions look as though they could have come straight from the pages of a Hornby/Bachmann/Dapol/Heljan etc. catalogue.

 

To each individual, obtaining a new RTR model is a treat and having that new loco to run on their layout is a very pleasant experience.

 

The collective experience, either via exposure in the press or at a show, is quite different. I can only enjoy seeing a particular RTR model so many times before I start longing to see something that somebody has made, that is individual and very likely unique.

 

Tony

[Horsetan]

To me, one of the problems with modern RTR stuff is that it is so good that people can now build a perfectly good layout using totally RTR products.

 

The problem is that it is killing off individuality and creativity as far as the loco and rolling stock are concerned.

100% this. The only challenge was getting the wallet out.

 

To each individual, obtaining a new RTR model is a treat and having that new loco to run on their layout is a very pleasant experience.

Sometimes it's not the model that gives pleasure, but the act of buying it. ...especially if you obtained it before everyone else did.

[EHertsGER]

100% this. The only challenge was getting the wallet out.

 

 

Sometimes it's not the model that gives pleasure, but the act of buying it. ...especially if you obtained it before everyone else did.

"Come to the dark side...." - "We have P4/S4 standards - and cookies..."

[Thane of Fife]

There has been much posted about kits and whether they will continue in the light of modern R-T-R models.

 

However; I enjoy building kits, I enjoy painting kits, I enjoy putting a newly built chassis on the track and it running, and most of all, I like looking at a model and thinking; " I built that myself". 

 

My retirement gave me the chance to restart modelling after a gap of 30 years. I find it relaxing sitting at my workbench and persuading bits to fit correctly etc. I could never get the same satisfaction merely writing cheques to purchase new models. 

 

Thane of fife

[hayfield]

I think it comes down to why you want a kit. I build plastic and resin kits of military figures and vehicles for the pleasure I get from building and painting them so I'll always want kits no matter how good diecast models and toy soldiers become. However a lot of the challenge and satisfaction is in painting and finishing for which the pleasure is just as great for a 3D printed model (or indeed, re-finishing a RTR model) as for a kit. I certainly agree there will always be people who build kits for the pleasure they get from kit building but I also think there are an awful lot of people for whom kits are a means to an end, a way of getting a model not available RTR. For those people I think 3D will increasingly be the future. Especially when considering that as more models are made in good RTR form kit manufacturers are probably facing more and more obscure types, especially in modern image diesels (admittedly modern diesels are not a big kit market anyway). As kit manufacturers look at more niche prototypes the advantages of only having to make a model if it is ordered, without having to make expensive moulds and tools may make the difference between a revitalised "kit" market and that part of the hobby continuing to shrink.

 

 

In one way I can clearly see your point of view, but whilst finishing off a model is an art form in its self and perhaps one of the most difficult to do properly, you could do the same to a RTR model out of a box, especially one of the older ones. Taking this to the extreme is Knobhead of this parish, with his RTR conversions. Outstanding model making, more akin to scratch building that kit building (OK he also bashes kits into other things as well), I guess all similar disciplines but different

[t-b-g]

There has been much posted about kits and whether they will continue in the light of modern R-T-R models.

 

However; I enjoy building kits, I enjoy painting kits, I enjoy putting a newly built chassis on the track and it running, and most of all, I looking at a model and thinking; " I built that myself". 

 

My retirement gave me the chance to restart modelling after a gap of 30 years. I find it relaxing sitting at my workbench and persuading bits to fit correctly etc. I could never get the same satisfaction merely writing cheques to purchase new models. 

 

Thane of fife

 

Exactly my approach. This hobby is, for me (and I am pleased to say a few others too) not about the quick "fix" of purchasing the latest RTR.

 

That first time that a mechanism goes on the rails and runs along smoothly still gives me a huge buzz after 30 plus years and many locos built.

 

I have even got to the stage where I have got so fed up with kits that don't go together well that I find scratchbuilding even more satisfying and pleasurable than building kits.

 

I appreciate that it is not for everybody but that really is the ultimate experience in terms of the satisfaction I get from railway modelling. I have mentioned scratchbuilding on here before and it usually provokes accusations of elitism, snobbery and looking down noses at people who use RTR stuff. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is just more fun!

 

A friend of mine has two LMS/MR Compounds. One was built from an old GEM kit 40 plus years ago. It has no brake gear, poor detail, wrong transfers and is generally not a very convincing model. The second is the NRM "special" No 1000. The latter is miles ahead in terms of quality. The GEM one is miles ahead in terms of the pleasure and satisfaction that it gave him.

 

It is up to each individual to choose which approach to the hobby they prefer and some people are very happy running whatever the trade offer them. Good luck to them and I hope they get as much pleasure from their approach as I do from mine.

 

But I will be building my own locos from kits or from scratch while ever the eyesight and hands allow me to carry on.

 

Tony

[JeffP]

When you've waited as long for a specific model as I have waited for "Falcon" in 7mm, (and it's still two years away), I think that when I buy mine, I'll call it modelling

 

But to take the argument further, when would owning rtr stock become modelling?

 

When you fit the supplied details?

When you fit extra details, eg: name plates, shed plates  and worksplates?

If you weather it?

If you change any part for better/more detailed?

 

I would say all of the above. Some may disagree.

[PGC]

I model GER in BR days, and have started a layout based in North Norfolk. The rolling stock I need to run the layout will be J15's, J17's, J19's E4's, N7's, B17's, D16/3's and B12's, Spot the problem buying R-T-R - half of the locos don't exist!

 

This is why I build kits - for the enjoyment and buzz of getting a chassis to run as well as, if not better than any R-T-R can manage, and providing stock that I can't buy in R-T-R form.

 

As long as I can carry on building for the pleasure of doing so (along with many others of the same persuasion), there will always be a need for kits.

 

Phil