RMweb Premium James Makin Posted June 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 23, 2014 I disagree. While there is a growing place for 3D printing in modelling it is certainly not a kit and does not bring the satisfaction of building a metal kit from an essentially 2D flat into a 3D representation of a prototype. I enjoy, as so do many others, the forming of metal and joining those forms together by soldering. I have no interest in 3D printing with the one exception of its potential to form masters or better still moulds for metal casting. I am sure that there are a growing number of folk interested in making models using 3D printing, just as there are many who enjoy making plastic kits - yet another variety added to the hobby as a whole - but 3D printing will never replace metal kits as it is the experience of building them not so much the end result that drives their popularity. I'm not sure, I think speaking for myself it's not the medium of how you make a kit but the end result that is always in my mind - it could be a 3D print, a whitemetal kit, some etched brass folding or a resin-cast job, it doesn't matter as it's just a process - depends on what you enjoy though, my passion is all in completing a project and making it look exactly like something from a memory or photograph, the actual modelling process is fun but it's all about the end goal for me. Cheers James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted June 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2014 J, Just looking at this forum shows that the majority of kit/scratchbuilding seems to be in 7mm, which does not have the wealth of (relatively) cheap RTR product available. Jol Jol, have a little cruise round the 2mm section of this forum, theres lots there Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy2 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Looking back at old magazines, I don't think that price has ever been an issue in the decision to kit build. In 1963 a Triang Britannia was 45/- (that is £2.25p in modern money!) whereas a Wills Crab kit was 77/- for the body only kit. It would be very interesting to see the wheel turn full circle and for kits to be the cheaper option! Ah, but for kids at the time the exoticism of the Crab was alluring. I was an avid collector of catalogues! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The reply was to RTR products.Yes and so was mine. I do take issue with those who seem to think that opening a box (a Bachmann/Hejan/Hornby RTR box) is not modelling. OK I accept if they open a box (or not open it) and simply display the contents unaltered then that is "collecting" and not modelling. But take a good look on the expo circuit or even on RMWeb at some extremely good layouts and then a check on the stock running - most of them are from the RTR stable. Are you saying that any of those layouts with superb modelling of buildings, railway infrastructure, scenery, ... is not modelling? Someone who opens the RTR box then proceeds to add even more detail, change numbers, even just weathers (to their taste) is that not modelling? Also why does modelling have to end with a layout? In my case it could end with a built unpainted wagon, in Stubby's case it could end with an infamous toilet, is that not modelling? Someone new to the hobby will probably buy RTR to run on a circle of track on a flat board in their spare bedroom. They will probably buy a few RTP buildings and set them up in an imaginary scene. Possibly progressing to adding some ballast, some scatter as grass, and maybe a identikit plastic building from Airfix or Ratio. They get the RTR trains to run and chase each other round in a circle. So is that not modelling? Loco kit building is just a small part of this great hobby that encompasses many skills and ranges of talent. RTR is as much part of that skill and it's use should not be shunned by purists. I would like every layout to have a kitbuilt loco (even if it is £D printed or plastic) but I also do not deny or put down others for not having that particular modelling skill or time to devote to that aspect of their hobby and simply get out the chequebook to step beyond and on with what they can model and enjoy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 ....in Stubby's case it could will end with an infamous toilet...... There, that's better..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane of Fife Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I think everyone finds their own level with railway modelling. It is a hobby for most of us, so how you get your pleasure from your hobby is up to you. I personally get pleasure from building kits. There are those who scratchbuild everything. There are those who collect R-T-R models. Who is qualified to say who is right and who is wrong? In my opinion everyone is right! If you get pleasure from what you do, then keep doing it. Thane of fife Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The question is, what would you do if the supply of kits dried up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The question is, what would you do if the supply of kits dried up? ...and by the same token, what happens if the supply of RTR dries up (as it has threatened, briefly, to do for at least one manufacturer)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Harper Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The question is, what would you do if the supply of kits dried up? As we did before, Bill. Scratch Build!! Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweasel Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 A fascinating subject. I have no objection to kits, having built loco's ranging from a 009 Hunslet to bigger lumps, but in my chosen scale I have almost no choice but to scratch build. This is where an opportunity lies for some enterprising soul to make things such as diesel axleboxes, cab interior fittings etc. Trouble is ,it's a niche market, hence low returns. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy2 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Coming back to trains after many years it does seem to me that there are far fewer scratch building aids than there used to be, and many less options for decals. I never really did get into kits except for Kitmaster as a kid, some etched brass carriages in 016.5 and Peco locos and rolling stock. So I suppose that I really was into kits, wasn't I? I did scratchbuild a loco in brass, but it was hardly super detailed. But the point is that there really was no alternative. When I started 'modelling' (what would you call repainting a Triang Princess in Great Western colours?) the serious blokes were still soldering up Saints and Stars out of flattened oil cans. Now I'm struggling to get parts and decals to prettify GBL locos. I keep wondering if there's some secret Aladdin's cave I haven't found yet and no-one's telling me about, but I don't think there really is. BTW - following a post on the ebay Madness thread, any views on 5&9 coaches and wagons? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 BTW - following a post on the ebay Madness thread, any views on 5&9 coaches and wagons? I have one of his LBSC special cattle vans on the go at the moment. The castings need a bit more cleaning up than (say) an ABS wagon kit, so it's probably not one you'd want to do as your first whitemetal kit. But overall I'm quite impressed with it, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 it does seem to me that there are... many less options for decals. Now there I would disagree completely. While you're right about other bits and bobs, the availability of computers, cheap or free software and easily accessible photographs make creating your own artwork easier than it has ever been. Printing at home on a bog standard inkjet or laser gives very good results and there are outfits like Precision Decals who will print your artwork if you need something the home printer can't achieve (white or gold, for example). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 When you've waited as long for a specific model as I have waited for "Falcon" in 7mm, (and it's still two years away), I think that when I buy mine, I'll call it modelling But to take the argument further, when would owning rtr stock become modelling? When you fit the supplied details? When you fit extra details, eg: name plates, shed plates and worksplates? If you weather it? If you change any part for better/more detailed? I would say all of the above. Some may disagree. I think the RTR manufacturers leave bits off to save on the costs more than any other reason. I am sure they will soon send out boxes of bits. The question is, what would you do if the supply of kits dried up? Think I would need to more scratch building. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 ...and by the same token, what happens if the supply of RTR dries up (as it has threatened, briefly, to do for at least one manufacturer)? I think this is more likely Now there I would disagree completely. While you're right about other bits and bobs, the availability of computers, cheap or free software and easily accessible photographs make creating your own artwork easier than it has ever been. Printing at home on a bog standard inkjet or laser gives very good results and there are outfits like Precision Decals who will print your artwork if you need something the home printer can't achieve (white or gold, for example). I have tried this and the decal paper is not fine enough. You end up with someting standing proud of the surface not looking like it was painted on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy2 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Now there I would disagree completely. While you're right about other bits and bobs, the availability of computers, cheap or free software and easily accessible photographs make creating your own artwork easier than it has ever been. Printing at home on a bog standard inkjet or laser gives very good results and there are outfits like Precision Decals who will print your artwork if you need something the home printer can't achieve (white or gold, for example). I'm finding it hard to do things like line a Maunsell livery loco - which at one time (say 1980) I would have been able to do easily, and with decals from stock. Mind you, in those days I could wander into any one of three or four local model shops and buy them over the counter, so I realise how much times have changed. Printing my own isn't feasible when I need white lining. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted June 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2014 I'm finding it hard to do things like line a Maunsell livery loco - which at one time (say 1980) I would have been able to do easily, and with decals from stock. Mind you, in those days I could wander into any one of three or four local model shops and buy them over the counter, so I realise how much times have changed. Printing my own isn't feasible when I need white lining. I can think of at least two transfer producers who list white lining on their web sites. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The question is, what would you do if the supply of kits dried up?Start designing my own - a bit like why most kit designers started (nothing available: learn to do it yourself) Either that or mountain jumping (possibly the same level of risk). But I don't think it is going to happen soon, too many ageing modellers with stashes of unbuilt kits, dying off and having them dumped on ebay by incredulous dependants realising that chest of old Jidenco boxes can raise bids of a small fortune. I'm still stunned at some of the prices these old s/h kits go for - and not just Jidenco but old DJH (with missing wheels) going for the price of them now new. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Ebay is a total mystery to me. Don't get me wrong, I both buy and sell on there, but quite why some folk bid MORE for second hand stuff on there which they can get cheaper brand new, is beyond me. In my younger days I rebuilt push-bikes, and was constantly annoyed to find I'd been outbid on an item I was bidding on, when the same seller had loads more of the same item, for less money, coming along on a daily basis. Buyers just couldn't be bothered to look. I often had to bid several times to get one at the lower price....which they could have done too, but preferred to pay more by outbidding me. And people who would pay £20 over the odds, plus P&P, for a used set of brakes, when the same were still available, post free, from an outfit in Northern Ireland. Beats me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Ebay is a total mystery to me. Don't get me wrong, I both buy and sell on there, but quite why some folk bid MORE for second hand stuff on there which they can get cheaper brand new, is beyond me. Perhaps we are all hunter gatherers at heart. All the fun of the chase and being there at the kill of some of these endangered kit species, just to place the trophy in their own treasure chest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 ....just to place the trophy in their own treasure chest. ....never to be seen again....until the next eBay clearout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DLT Posted June 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 23, 2014 I do take issue with those who seem to think that opening a box (a Bachmann/Hejan/Hornby RTR box) is not modelling. OK I accept if they open a box (or not open it) and simply display the contents unaltered then that is "collecting" and not modelling. But take a good look on the expo circuit or even on RMWeb at some extremely good layouts and then a check on the stock running - most of them are from the RTR stable. Are you saying that any of those layouts with superb modelling of buildings, railway infrastructure, scenery, ... is not modelling? Someone who opens the RTR box then proceeds to add even more detail, change numbers, even just weathers (to their taste) is that not modelling? Also why does modelling have to end with a layout? In my case it could end with a built unpainted wagon, in Stubby's case it could end with an infamous toilet, is that not modelling? Someone new to the hobby will probably buy RTR to run on a circle of track on a flat board in their spare bedroom. They will probably buy a few RTP buildings and set them up in an imaginary scene. Possibly progressing to adding some ballast, some scatter as grass, and maybe a identikit plastic building from Airfix or Ratio. They get the RTR trains to run and chase each other round in a circle. So is that not modelling? Loco kit building is just a small part of this great hobby that encompasses many skills and ranges of talent. RTR is as much part of that skill and it's use should not be shunned by purists. I would like every layout to have a kitbuilt loco (even if it is £D printed or plastic) but I also do not deny or put down others for not having that particular modelling skill or time to devote to that aspect of their hobby and simply get out the chequebook to step beyond and on with what they can model and enjoy. I agree with Kenton! Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy2 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I can think of at least two transfer producers who list white lining on their web sites. David I found a couple, but none with the complex curves needed for cabsides. Or at least none that I've found. Fox tell me that it's on their 'to-do' list, so I'm waiting in breathless anticipation. But if you know of someone who does full loco lining (curves etc) please let me know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted June 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 23, 2014 The model railway hobby is wide and diverse, just because people don't make model locomotive kits does not mean they are not modellers. I know plenty of people whose first love in the hobby is scenery and who devote their efforts to scenic modelling and run RTR. I have known people who can take pretty basic RTR like old Lima and Athearn (US) models and achieve miracles with them after conversion, super detailing and repainting. Then there are those who like running prototypical railways in miniature and go to great efforts to replicate operating patterns, signalling etc on layouts. I wouldn't consider any of these people lesser modellers than kit builders. That is not to say I don't admire those who build locomotive kits. And if people just want to stick an oval of track down on a kitchen floor and run a train set train around in circles then if they enjoy it good luck to them. I am also a collector in that a lot of my US outline models are in wall mounted display units and rarely if ever see a layout yet in many ways they give me the most pleasure as I see them more than any of my other models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KalKat Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Smiffy - HMRS do plenty of curves and corners in their BR/LNWR sheets, I don't see why they wouldn't do something similar in LNER type...... ..... in fact http://www.hmrs.org.uk/transfers/transferdetails.php?transferid=1035 Emma Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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