Wright writes.....

[Woodcock29]

2 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

The tender is from a Hornby Bittern model, I need to remove the tender over head wires warning markers, and the non corridor tender that was from the W1’s donor A4 will go behind Bittern to become 4903 Peregrine. I’ve never seen 4903 modelled and being an avid fan of Tolkien (Peregrin (Pippin) Took) it was a no brainer, even if the spelling is different. 

Jesse - what did you say above?

 

Sorry about the quality of the photo - just a quick phone photo. I only renamed this loco in the last 12 months - second-hand Mallard that I couldn't resist buying for a cheap price. I still need to close couple the engine and tender.

Andrew

Edited April 5 by Woodcock29

[LNER4479]

And another ...

 

 

And, given that we have all 35 to call upon ...

 

 

... she'll be in this little lot somewhere.

Edited April 5 by LNER4479

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Llani, Caersws (where both Nick (?) and Gwil (?) deposited one each of my balls into the Severn!)

Hopefully the surgery was painless and successful?

[Tony Wright]

25 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Hopefully the surgery was painless and successful?

By successful, does it mean that I can now sing Soprano? No, thankfully.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[robertcwp]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

There are some rather nice ex-GWR and ex-LMS carriages as well................

They should be worth a look!

[Tony Wright]

PEREGRINE?

 

Anyone who can clearly remember seeing an A4 named after the fastest creature on the planet (how apposite?) must be very old now.

 

Me? This is how I remember seeing the last-built A4............

 

 

I had to have a model of LORD FARINGDON because I was at Retford when it went through light engine, captured in a Keith Pirt picture. Fresh from the Plant, she positively gleamed!

 

I made it from a much-altered Bachmann body, mounted on a South Eastern Finecast chassis and towing an SEF corridor tender (with cut-down rear end). Ian Rathbone produced the perfect paint job. 

 

She was a regular............

 

 

On Stoke Summit............

 

And is now always used on the principal expresses on Little Bytham.........

 

 

The morning Talisman.

 

 

 

As well as the afternoon Talisman.

 

 

And other, non-named expresses. 

 

Packed with lead, she's far more powerful than any RTR equivalent and really is (in my view) an ideal 'layout loco'.

 

 

Edited April 5 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Woodcock29]

8 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

Jesse - what did you say above?

 

Sorry about the quality of the photo - just a quick phone photo. I only renamed this loco in the last 12 months - second-hand Mallard that I couldn't resist buying for a cheap price. I still need to close couple the engine and tender.

Andrew

I've just remembered that this is actually my second Peregrine as back in the 90s I renamed a Bachmann model Peregrine but sold that on after Hornby released their new models with far superior bodies not to mention the range of correct tenders.

Andrew

[Jesse Sim]

Well, as I said, I’ve never seen 4903 modelled. I didn’t say a 4903 never existed  😉

Edited April 5 by Jesse Sim

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, robertcwp said:

They should be worth a look!

Good morning Robert,

 

A couple of communications, the answering of a few questions, and it looks like the ex-LMS carriages have already gone!

 

There are some very nice ex-GWR carriages, however. That said, I'll have them for sale at the Cotgrave Show this weekend, so there might not be a need for any photography. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

A few things are beginning to dawn on me now with regard to the 'value' of the locos/stock I'm selling on behalf of bereaved/distressed families of late. All the locos/rolling stock are kit-built (Mo and I don't 'deal' in RTR), and, in the main, it's of a good/high standard. The most-recent locos run particularly well. Yet, I'm struggling to even get the cost of the components.

 

I took some locos to Doncaster, Preston and York, and, while a few sold, I still came back with several. Yet, I'd priced them at under the cost of a new kit and all the bits to build it. Granted, the making of locos (at least to the likes of me) is more important than buying them ready-made (why should I pay for something I can build myself?). And, from anecdotal evidence, it would appear that unmade kits (by that I mean in a virgin state) are more-desirable than the equivalent made-up item. 

 

What I find hard to reconcile is the difference in price now between reasonable kit-built locos and current RTR. Most big RTR steam-outline locos (not DCC) are in excess of £200.00 - well in excess in some cases; in fact, are we reaching the £300.00 barrier? Though, in some cases, I've got near price-parity for equivalent types, for most of the time I'm well below it - and the models still don't shift! 

 

I suppose RTR stuff is 'guaranteed', and, to be fair, the quality in terms of accuracy and finish is better than most kit-built equivalents, but are they as robust? Will they last as long? Do they give the same satisfaction? Who knows? 

 

We'll keep on trying our best. The cause deserves it. 

[Mark Laidlay]

On 05/04/2024 at 07:20, 31A said:

 

A (late) friend of mine used to call them double compounds.  He was British (Welsh to be specific) and a railwayman, but not a permanent way man.

Maybe it's related, I read somewhere recently that "double compound" was a GWR term.  I wonder what a GWR Way and Works manual says?

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

A few things are beginning to dawn on me now with regard to the 'value' of the locos/stock I'm selling on behalf of bereaved/distressed families of late. All the locos/rolling stock are kit-built (Mo and I don't 'deal' in RTR), and, in the main, it's of a good/high standard. The most-recent locos run particularly well. Yet, I'm struggling to even get the cost of the components.

 

I took some locos to Doncaster, Preston and York, and, while a few sold, I still came back with several. Yet, I'd priced them at under the cost of a new kit and all the bits to build it. Granted, the making of locos (at least to the likes of me) is more important than buying them ready-made (why should I pay for something I can build myself?). And, from anecdotal evidence, it would appear that unmade kits (by that I mean in a virgin state) are more-desirable than the equivalent made-up item. 

 

What I find hard to reconcile is the difference in price now between reasonable kit-built locos and current RTR. Most big RTR steam-outline locos (not DCC) are in excess of £200.00 - well in excess in some cases; in fact, are we reaching the £300.00 barrier? Though, in some cases, I've got near price-parity for equivalent types, for most of the time I'm well below it - and the models still don't shift! 

 

I suppose RTR stuff is 'guaranteed', and, to be fair, the quality in terms of accuracy and finish is better than most kit-built equivalents, but are they as robust? Will they last as long? Do they give the same satisfaction? Who knows? 

 

We'll keep on trying our best. The cause deserves it. 

 

Sadly, the loss of so many older modellers is bringing enough locos out of the woodwork as to create something of a buyers market.

 

Two other factors are at work, though, I think.

 

A scepticism, as often expressed by your good self, as to whether the item will work as well as it looks without a lot of work, and a sharing of your own preference for making the things up personally!

 

Not suggesting for a moment that any of it is down to your influence, though. I'm amazed at how many people seem (intentionally or otherwise) to "collect" unbuilt kits! 🙂

 

Where a modern r-t-r equivalent exists, the price of that generally seems to set a ceiling for a kit-built one, however nicely done. Not fair in some cases, but probably pragmatic in general.

 

Where larger r-t-r locos are concerned, we seem already to have passed the £200 quiet, £300 noisy threshold, and counting..... 

 

John  

Edited April 6 by Dunsignalling

[MJI]

Accurascale EE Co Co with sound and DCC are getting there, i actually want some DC 50s.

[robertcwp]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Robert,

 

A couple of communications, the answering of a few questions, and it looks like the ex-LMS carriages have already gone!

 

There are some very nice ex-GWR carriages, however. That said, I'll have them for sale at the Cotgrave Show this weekend, so there might not be a need for any photography. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks, I have far too many carriages anyway!

[robertcwp]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

A few things are beginning to dawn on me now with regard to the 'value' of the locos/stock I'm selling on behalf of bereaved/distressed families of late. All the locos/rolling stock are kit-built (Mo and I don't 'deal' in RTR), and, in the main, it's of a good/high standard. The most-recent locos run particularly well. Yet, I'm struggling to even get the cost of the components.

 

I took some locos to Doncaster, Preston and York, and, while a few sold, I still came back with several. Yet, I'd priced them at under the cost of a new kit and all the bits to build it. Granted, the making of locos (at least to the likes of me) is more important than buying them ready-made (why should I pay for something I can build myself?). And, from anecdotal evidence, it would appear that unmade kits (by that I mean in a virgin state) are more-desirable than the equivalent made-up item. 

 

What I find hard to reconcile is the difference in price now between reasonable kit-built locos and current RTR. Most big RTR steam-outline locos (not DCC) are in excess of £200.00 - well in excess in some cases; in fact, are we reaching the £300.00 barrier? Though, in some cases, I've got near price-parity for equivalent types, for most of the time I'm well below it - and the models still don't shift! 

 

I suppose RTR stuff is 'guaranteed', and, to be fair, the quality in terms of accuracy and finish is better than most kit-built equivalents, but are they as robust? Will they last as long? Do they give the same satisfaction? Who knows? 

 

We'll keep on trying our best. The cause deserves it. 

Some current RTR models are far from robust. Think of the issues with the new Hornby BR Standard 2MT for example. Others are disappointing in other respects, eg the awful attempt at BR green on the Hornby A2/2 and A2/3, plus some quality issues.

 

However, they do have some advantages over kits, especially for the 00 modeller, which most of those who model in 4mm scale are. RTR engines are better at negotiating tighter curves (eg the annoyingly sharp Peco double slip) and they mostly come ready for DCC and sound, if the owner wants it. My main layout is old-fashioned DC and I don't see the appeal of sound but any new layout of mine will be DCC only. They are also generally built 'square' although some can be wobbly runners. For most modellers, power is not really an issue as they won't be running scale length trains. Even RTR locos can often handle long trains with some additional weight, even if formed mostly of heavy metal kit-built carriages. 

 

Here is an example of what modern RTR can do - this is a Hornby 'Commonwealth of Australia' on the Elizabethan stock (10 out of 11 are metal kits) on Retford. It was a test run - hence no lamps or headboards. Sandra converted the engine to EM and added extra weight but it retains its Hornby mechanism. 

 

The main appeal of kits will probably be for those types not covered RTR, of which there are still many in the steam era. 

 

For rolling stock, there are very significant RTR gaps, such as decent GWR, LMS or LNER catering cars and various non-passenger types, as well as huge gaps such as Gresley end-door stock. Kits have some appeal here but lots of modellers seem not to care too much whether their trains are as prototypical as their engines.

 

For wagons, kits cover many types not available RTR. However, even plastic kits can cause problems if not built 'square'. This is an issue that has manifested itself on Retford, where most of the troublesome wagons are kit-built ones that won't sit with all four wheels on the track at once. Most have now been weeded out and exiled to the back of the goods yard.

Edited April 6 by robertcwp
Trying to get link to work. Added a bit.

[gr.king]

On 05/04/2024 at 07:46, Tony Wright said:

50 tears ago, I used K's motors, but I never got any to run properly (though the HP2Ms made very realistic smoke!).

 

When I read that, I firstly assumed that the 't' in tears was a typing error, but then I thought that it might be nearer the truth. Maybe there are some zeros missing from '50' though?

[Jol Wilkinson]

29 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

"For wagons, kits cover many types not available RTR. However, even plastic kits can cause problems if not built 'square'. This is an issue that has manifested itself on Retford, where most of the troublesome wagons are kit-built ones that won't sit with all four wheels on the track at once. Most have now been weeded out and exiled to the back of the goods yard."

 

Robert,

 

the only sure way to get all four wheels to sit on the track is to spring or compensate the axles. Despite what many think, track is rarely absolutely flat.

 

However, with OO/EM  wheel flanges it shouldn't be too difficult the build a a short wheelbase vehicle or bogie that will remain on reasonably well built track without falling off. There are occasions where a flange meeting a badly made/fitted switch blade will lift and derail, but that is a another issue.

 

Jol

[robertcwp]

2 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Robert,

 

the only sure way to get all four wheels to sit on the track is to spring or compensate the axles. Despite what many think, track is rarely absolutely flat.

 

However, with OO/EM  wheel flanges it shouldn't be too difficult the build a a short wheelbase vehicle or bogie that will remain on reasonably well built track without falling off. There are occasions where a flange meeting a badly made/fitted switch blade will lift and derail, but that is a another issue.

 

Jol

I know, but a few wagons on Retford were found to be significantly out of alignment such you could see that the axles were not parallel and they were prone to derailing. Minor imperfections don't matter in EM and compensation is not really needed. Another problem which affects RTR as well as kit-built stock is back-to-backs being out, but that is more easily sorted. I went through the whole cement train on Retford last weekend. It was prone to derailing but having given it a service, it seems fine now. Wheels accumulate dirt and that causes drag and can lead to derailments. I have spent countless hours over the last few years cleaning carriage and wagon wheels.

[Captain Kernow]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

A few things are beginning to dawn on me now with regard to the 'value' of the locos/stock I'm selling on behalf of bereaved/distressed families of late.

You make a very interesting point, Tony.

 

If we accept for a moment (for reasons already discussed), that kit builders are now in a pretty small minority as compared with the number of RTR-buyers (especially when the collector market for RTR is factored in), then that might imply that the market share for ready-built kits is already very small, unfortunately.

 

It leaves me wondering why a ready-built kit (no matter how well assembled and no matter how well it runs), might still not appeal to someone who has hitherto only had experience of RTR locos. Perhaps such individuals, having little or no experience of kit building, are not attracted to kit built locos because they are (i) wary of something going wrong and perhaps (ii) wouldn't know how to go about fault-finding and rectification, whereas someone who has experience of building kits themselves may already have sufficient confidence to take something like that on.

 

Kit-built locos are, by their very nature, more 'individualistic' than mass-produced RTR items. If an RTR model goes wrong, most owners have the option of (a) returning it to the retailer or even manufacturer under some kind of warranty or (b) fault-finding themselves, with the confidence that they are dealing with a 'standard' product and the fact that there are many, many other folk out there with the same model, who may be able to advise them on what to do, on a forum such as this one.

 

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

6 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Wheels accumulate dirt and that causes drag and can lead to derailments. I have spent countless hours over the last few years cleaning carriage and wagon wheels.

I completely agree. I still get surprised by the amount of dirt that accumulates on my OO and P4 stock, despite my having a very strict (almost draconian - just ask my friends who have helped me at shows in the past!) track cleaning policy.

 

[Captain Kernow]

On the question of pricing of kit-built locos, I am aware that a beautifully assembled P4 Pro-scale 'Princess' in BR maroon, built by Alan Sibley, sold very quickly (was advertised on the S4 forum and also was on Ebay). The asking price was £350 (o.n.o.).

 

I don't know if that represented the final price paid (I didn't buy it, despite being tempted (it would have been too big for my little P4 layout anyway).

 

Even for that price, there's no way that you could get a kit professionally built for that, especially one so well finished.

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

8 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

You make a very interesting point, Tony.

 

If we accept for a moment (for reasons already discussed), that kit builders are now in a pretty small minority as compared with the number of RTR-buyers (especially when the collector market for RTR is factored in), then that might imply that the market share for ready-built kits is already very small, unfortunately.

 

It leaves me wondering why a ready-built kit (no matter how well assembled and no matter how well it runs), might still not appeal to someone who has hitherto only had experience of RTR locos. Perhaps such individuals, having little or no experience of kit building, are not attracted to kit built locos because they are (i) wary of something going wrong and perhaps (ii) wouldn't know how to go about fault-finding and rectification, whereas someone who has experience of building kits themselves may already have sufficient confidence to take something like that on.

 

Kit-built locos are, by their very nature, more 'individualistic' than mass-produced RTR items. If an RTR model goes wrong, most owners have the option of (a) returning it to the retailer or even manufacturer under some kind of warranty or (b) fault-finding themselves, with the confidence that they are dealing with a 'standard' product and the fact that there are many, many other folk out there with the same model, who may be able to advise them on what to do, on a forum such as this one.

 

 

 

 I think that kit builders have been very much in a minority for a long time. Increasingly "Fear of Failure" has played a part when it comes to having a go at kit building, while the improved standard of RTR model finish (if not reliability, etc.) has set a standard which few model makers can match. I think there are also other factors in play, such as a desire to belong to the same tribe by acquiring the latest RTR model, almost irrespective of what railway, era, etc. it represents. A look at the topics about the latest RTR product announcements and releases illustrate that.

 

However, for those that enjoy making models, the challenge and satisfaction of creating something that is unique to them, provides lasting pleasure. It can be more about the journey than the destination.

[Steamport Southport]

6 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 I think that kit builders have been very much in a minority for a long time. Increasingly "Fear of Failure" has played a part when it comes to having a go at kit building, while the improved standard of RTR model finish (if not reliability, etc.) has set a standard which few model makers can match. I think there are also other factors in play, such as a desire to belong to the same tribe by acquiring the latest RTR model, almost irrespective of what railway, era, etc. it represents. A look at the topics about the latest RTR product announcements and releases illustrate that.

 

However, for those that enjoy making models, the challenge and satisfaction of creating something that is unique to them, provides lasting pleasure. It can be more about the journey than the destination.

 

It is something that does seem strange when the military and aircraft plastic kit market seems very healthy as does the market for the detailing extras and decals.

 

Many of them aren't cheap "throw together in an afternoon" kits anymore. Yet I don't hear moans of having to build a kit, the total opposite in fact. If you look at the plastic kit forums they are eager to build them! You'll even find build videos posted on YouTube.

 

This is an Airfix 1:48 scale Fairey Gannet with an RRP of £55 so about the equivalent price of an etched brass coach kit.

 

https://uk.airfix.com/products/fairey-gannet-14-a11007

 

 

 

Jason

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

If we accept for a moment (for reasons already discussed), that kit builders are now in a pretty small minority as compared with the number of RTR-buyers (especially when the collector market for RTR is factored in), then that might imply that the market share for ready-built kits is already very small, unfortunately.

I'm not sure about that, Tim. Personally, I'm happy to trade the time I would need to build a kit (of whatever) for a ready-to-run version, whether mass-produced, kit-built or scratchbuilt. I've acquired one or two locos, a few coaches (more coming) and a number of wagons that way.

[john new]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 I think that kit builders have been very much in a minority for a long time. Increasingly "Fear of Failure" has played a part when it comes to having a go at kit building, while the improved standard of RTR model finish (if not reliability, etc.) has set a standard which few model makers can match. I think there are also other factors in play, such as a desire to belong to the same tribe by acquiring the latest RTR model, almost irrespective of what railway, era, etc. it represents. A look at the topics about the latest RTR product announcements and releases illustrate that.

 

However, for those that enjoy making models, the challenge and satisfaction of creating something that is unique to them, provides lasting pleasure. It can be more about the journey than the destination.

As one who previously hasn’t done much modern kit building the reasons why I haven’t are spread throughout this thread. Most recent I recall is Tony pointing out a boiler was the wrong dimensions. A mental barrier was overcome on a recent Missenden course. I am giving it, I.e., kit building, another go as hopefully I now have enough “bloody mindedness” to take on the inevitable challenges.