Wright writes.....

[unclebobkt]

It has been like that for a long time.

Chaucer wrote about a Prioress who spoke Norman French when the fashion was to speak Parisian French.

  ... .    Bernard

 

        If II remember aright didn't the Prioress speak 'after the scole of Stratford atte Bow;  for Frensshe of Parys was to her unknowe.'.

  I' sure that there might well be those here who know where Stratford atte Bow is?

 

       

[thegreenhowards]

Evening Andy.

 

thanks for the information. I've only found one photo so far claiming to be from around 1956/57 it shows Blue Peter departing Aberdeen carrying the headboard. Behind the locomotive is the same or sister twin as in the screen grabs above. The carriage is in crimson and cream, I'm sending you a PM. I suspect that the twin may have been added to the train at Edinburgh for the run to Aberdeen and return. I notice that the 12.55 am off KX has a similar twin added at Newcastle for the run up to Edinburgh, the timings don't match to intercept with the Aberdonian but still of interest. The relevant CWN for the Aberdeen route would probably reveal more. Of course, it may also reflect a difference between winter and summer workings.

 

With regard to photographs, can I take it that the carriages you are interested in would be fairly static prior to 1956. Due to the images being before the introduction of maroon, they wouldn't be much help as regards liveries but they would confirm identification. Incidentally, did any of the sleepers have the toilets outboard of the end vestibule doors on the corridor side? Finally, didn't the southbound Aberdonian hit a local at Welwyn garden city in 1957, there are photos of this accident on-line and more probably in existence.

Thanks Andrew,

 

The exchange on the Aberdeen twins rang a bell, and I found a section on their workings in Robert Carroll's article on the post war use of the streamlined stock which is an excellent resource.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7wNtUp2bp_eUy03M3Y4aWc2alE/view

 

There seem to have been three diagrams for the BTO/RT pairs working out of Edinburgh. One to Newcastle and back, and two to Aberdeen and back including the one photographed which worked the 1000 from Edinburgh and then back on the Aberdonian. Interesting that the southbound working justified a twin, while northbound, with a Fort William portion as well, only a single RU was used. I'm modelling the Kings Cross end of the line, so sadly no justicfication for me.

 

All the carriage workings I have seen which range from Summer 1952 until Winter 56/7 show the SLC twin in the Aberdonian. I believe it was ever present from about 1933. As discussed it switched to the unnamed departure in the same slot in 1957, and had disappeared completely by Summer 1958.

 

Good prompt on the Welwyn Garden City accident, but the online pictures I have found so far are not clear enough to make out carriage details. I will search some books in due course.

 

The d.95 and d.109 61'6" Convertible SLT's had toilet windows outboard of the end vestibule doors. I'm not immediately aware of any others.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[St Enodoc]

        If II remember aright didn't the Prioress speak 'after the scole of Stratford atte Bow;  for Frensshe of Parys was to her unknowe.'.

  I' sure that there might well be those here who know where Stratford atte Bow is?

 

       

I don't always believe what I read on Wikipedia, but anyway:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow,_London

[jwealleans]

The accident report for Welwyn 1957 doesn't - unusually - include a precise list of vehicles involved. It does give a summary description of the sleeper train and I don't think, from a cursory glance, that there is any mention of an articulated pair in there.

 

Accident reports can be a very useful source of information on train consists, even if reading them isn't exactly a barrel of laughs.

[Focalplane]

I don't always believe what I read on Wikipedia, but anyway:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow,_London

 

I agree with you about wikipedia but I think the reference here is accurate.  Stratford is essentially a place where a street crosses a ford and where later a bridge would have been built.  The river in question here would be the Lea.  My wife's family comes from the area and I have trotted after her on several occasions doing family history research - she does the same when I retrace my steps in Birmingham.  The other Stratford we also know well, living, according to the signpost, exactly 12-1/4 miles from that fair town of John and later William Shakespeare.

[coachmann]

I painted the original NuCast steam railcar for display and boxlid picture in the 1980's. Quite a weighty model, as was the GWR one from Anbrico.

Edited February 22, 2017 by coachmann

[grob1234]

Tom,

 

Having built over 20 DJH A1s, that's probably the one I'd go for. My reason for building a Crownline one is that I picked the un-built kit up at Southampton for less than half price. I have, as you can see, though, substituted a DJH smokebox/boiler/firebox for the resin one supplied. 

 

Either kit (and the Pro-Scale one, too) has a much greater 'presence' than an RTR one in my view. When running, because they're made of metal, they 'clatter' most-realistically, and will pull far more than an RTR one. Though the Bachmann model is OK, the thick deflectors, cabsides and tender sides militate against it. The non-lining-up of the rear footplate and tender footplate annoys as well (though I fixed this on the ones I sold), the bogie wheels are poor (I substituted those) and the return crank leans the wrong way on the nearside. 

 

Can one have too many A1s (in BR days). Of course, if you have 50! I have a dozen or so, the most important fact being that (with one exception) I built them. Tony Geary built one.

 

Half price kit, can't argue with that, especially given some of the prices stuff sells for on eBay. Anyway, it looks like you have a lovely combination there.

 

I agree about kit built A1/3s which is why I went for the DJH one. I'll get a huge amount of pleasure from building and painting it, although it probably won't look as good as a Hornby one, it'll push me to develop my modelling skills.

[thegreenhowards]

The accident report for Welwyn 1957 doesn't - unusually - include a precise list of vehicles involved. It does give a summary description of the sleeper train and I don't think, from a cursory glance, that there is any mention of an articulated pair in there.Accident reports can be a very useful source of information on train consists, even if reading them isn't exactly a barrel of laughs.

Thanks for the link. There's a brief description of the formation on page 5 and a drawing in the appendix on the final page. From what I can see the formation bore little resemblance to the formation as described in the carriage workings. The crashed train seems to be

MK1 BSK x 2

Mk 1 SK

Mk 1 BCK or BSO

Thompson BCK

Mk 1 SK X 3

Indescriminate Thompson

2 X Thompson BG

 

So at most one sleeping car and definitely no Gresleys ( the non mk 1s are described as being built in 1948). It was also described as leaving at 7.10pm from Aberdeen whereas it should have left at 6.55pm on a Sunday evening. 7.10pm is the weekday timing. I therefore wonder whether the train was running in two portions on this night- perhaps extra demand returning after Hogmanay given the date of 7th Jan?

 

So an interesting piece of deciphering, but unfortunately of little use for my Gresley twin!

[Poggy1165]

        If II remember aright didn't the Prioress speak 'after the scole of Stratford atte Bow;  for Frensshe of Parys was to her unknowe.'.

  I' sure that there might well be those here who know where Stratford atte Bow is?

 

       

 

I seem to recall from studying Chaucer for A Level that there was a nunnery there, notable for educating young girls of gentle and noble birth. So this was likely a little dig at some of the court ladies. A lot of Chaucer is 'in jokes' that were doubtless hilarious at the Court of King Richard II, but which fly over the heads of 99.9% of us.

 

(I dare say that in 600 years time most of the humour on RMWeb will baffle folk too.)

Edited February 22, 2017 by Poggy1165

[Manxman1831]

Hi folks, just a quick question related in part to my most recent builds, but who amongst you would happen to know which vehicles formed the test train behind Mallard and the Dynamometer Car when she made her dash past Little Bytham?  I'm attempting to put together a representation of the train in 00 (as an aside to forming a complete set of Coronation coaches to be pulled by Dominion of Canada), and am struggling to find a proper list of the coaches.

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Brian

[Headstock]

Thanks for the link. There's a brief description of the formation on page 5 and a drawing in the appendix on the final page. From what I can see the formation bore little resemblance to the formation as described in the carriage workings. The crashed train seems to be

MK1 BSK x 2

Mk 1 SK

Mk 1 BCK or BSO

Thompson BCK

Mk 1 SK X 3

Indescriminate Thompson

2 X Thompson BG

 

So at most one sleeping car and definitely no Gresleys ( the non mk 1s are described as being built in 1948). It was also described as leaving at 7.10pm from Aberdeen whereas it should have left at 6.55pm on a Sunday evening. 7.10pm is the weekday timing. I therefore wonder whether the train was running in two portions on this night- perhaps extra demand returning after Hogmanay given the date of 7th Jan?

 

So an interesting piece of deciphering, but unfortunately of little use for my Gresley twin!

 

Evening Andy,

 

no look with regard to the Welwyn accident I see. The LNER lent the Aberdonian set to a film crew for the making of a motion picture, I shall see if I can look out the details and post latter. Also, the media covered the then Princess Elizabeth and sprogs travelled to Scotland on the Aberdonian in 1950. The carriage she boarded looks to have been freshly outshopped in crimson and cream for the occasion, SLF appears on the end. The second image is a screen grab from Newsreel of the event and shows the Princess departing the train.

[Focalplane]

While doing some research yesterday on the history of my trainspotter days' local line, the North Warwickshire Line, I discovered an interesting rule for banking (or helping) trains up the long 1:150 drag from Stratford-upon-Avon to Earlswood.  For passenger trains the helper was placed between the train and its locomotive which hardly seems an ideal situation given the time taken to position the helper within the train and then undo it.  Goods trains had the more efficient push from behind (which would also have prevented runaways).

 

But to prove the rule existed, I found this photo on warwickshirerailways.com.  A strange set up, to be sure.

 

The run up to the Birmingham Plateau was also the stumbling block on the Midland line, this feature being more commonly known to all as "the Lickey".  All trains needing help up Lickey were pushed, but then the incline was much shorter and much much steeper (1:37).  To the East was Hatton Bank which was somewhere in between the two at 1:105.  Only heavy goods trains were banked though express trains did slow down a bit.  All three lines survived Beeching but the North Warwickshire line only did so with the help of a very vocal campaign.  Even then the line south of Stratford was cut and apparently it is not going to be reinstated despite attempts to do so.

 

Having written this, it occurred to me that the east of England is generally flat.  Were there any inclines needing help, other than those over the Pennines?  If not, did this have an impact on locomotive design?

[Bob Reid]

The accident report for Welwyn 1957 doesn't - unusually - include a precise list of vehicles involved. It does give a summary description of the sleeper train and I don't think, from a cursory glance, that there is any mention of an articulated pair in there.

 

Accident reports can be a very useful source of information on train consists, even if reading them isn't exactly a barrel of laughs.

 

Not that unusual.  It was the norm to include vehicle numbers (at that investigation level) where it turned out to be relevant to the cause or the effect of the incident... With very little damage to the set and nothing mentioned in respect of poor braking or anything about their overall condition it would for the sake of the size of the report just be unnecessary padding.  That said it did vary from one Inspecting Officer to the other!

[micklner]

Sentinel Rail Motor 02.jpg

 

Just out of interest, I checked with Dave Ellis of SE Finecast this morning with regard to the reintroduced Sentinel.

 

He only has a picture of the original Nu-Cast one (B&W), so I've done him this one. 

 

It's certain that the moulds have been revisited and that the SEF one will be lighter. This is one of the last commissions John ordered before his death, so it looks like this is one of the revised ones. It was built, I believe, by someone in Darlington. 

 

I also checked with Dave as to the cost of the bits. With the power bogie, it's just over £140.00 for the kit. 

 

Since this one looks very well-made and painted (complete with full interior, curtains and passengers) I'm asking £300.00, which I think is fair. 

 

Also out of interest, I've given this a thorough test. In both directions, the little power bogie seems up to the task with ease. I added a couple of (light) plastic vans and it took those with equal ease. 

 

Mine had a Spud bogie horrid little thing, it  managed to travel about a foot before it stripped one of the plastic Drive gears. Mine now has a Black Beetle power bogie and never had a problem again. I believe the Bullant bogie used by JW are even better. 

 

I believe the Bufferbeam should be Black not Red.

Edited February 22, 2017 by micklner

[Leander]

While doing some research yesterday on the history of my trainspotter days' local line, the North Warwickshire Line, I discovered an interesting rule for banking (or helping) trains up the long 1:150 drag from Stratford-upon-Avon to Earlswood.  For passenger trains the helper was placed between the train and its locomotive which hardly seems an ideal situation given the time taken to position the helper within the train and then undo it.  Goods trains had the more efficient push from behind (which would also have prevented runaways).

 

But to prove the rule existed, I found this photo on warwickshirerailways.com.  A strange set up, to be sure.

 

The run up to the Birmingham Plateau was also the stumbling block on the Midland line, this feature being more commonly known to all as "the Lickey".  All trains needing help up Lickey were pushed, but then the incline was much shorter and much much steeper (1:37).  To the East was Hatton Bank which was somewhere in between the two at 1:105.  Only heavy goods trains were banked though express trains did slow down a bit.  All three lines survived Beeching but the North Warwickshire line only did so with the help of a very vocal campaign.  Even then the line south of Stratford was cut and apparently it is not going to be reinstated despite attempts to do so.

 

Having written this, it occurred to me that the east of England is generally flat.  Were there any inclines needing help, other than those over the Pennines?  If not, did this have an impact on locomotive design?

Bankers go on the back, a pilot engine goes on the front of the train.

Most companies/regions attached the pilot ahead of the train engine e.g. on Grayrigg bank north from Oxenholme. The GWR/BR(WR) just loved to be different in attaching the pilot loco to the train with the train  engine attached in front. This was the practice over the South Devon banks although someone with greater knowledge than me would possibly be able to explain why this practice was the case.

 

Helper is an Americanism.

 

Sorry, Tony, for taking this on a bit of a tangent.

[APOLLO]

Having written this, it occurred to me that the east of England is generally flat.  Were there any inclines needing help, other than those over the Pennines?  If not, did this have an impact on locomotive design?

 

The stiff climb out of Kings Cross to Finsbury Park (and further north) springs to mind. I read somewhere that the LNER did not like double heading, so the Pacifics had their work cut out going north at least for the first few miles. Then it was fairly flat and race horse country !!

 

Did the heavy single Pacific hauled expresses get a "shove" up to / through Gas Works tunnel ?

 

Stiff climb north out of Euston also - but they (LMS) also had powerful loco's. I don't know the helping arrangements (if any) there.

 

Brit15

Edited February 22, 2017 by APOLLO

[Leander]

The usual practice at Euston was for the loco that brought in the ECS to give a shove to help the train engine get going up Camden Bank. Just how far that help was offered did tend to vary. Some carriage sets were 'gravitated' into the station, in which case no such assistance would be forthcoming.

 

You do see photos of trains being double-headed on the southern part of the WCML. This was often done on down trains as a means of returning a loco on an unbalanced working to its home depot.

[Focalplane]

In the early days out of Euston the L&BR used cables to haul the carriages to Camden, then they attached a steam locomotive.

 

My research on the Midlander has demonstrated that the Bushbury Jubilees had their work cut out because the timing to Willesden was 9 minutes, a timing almost impossible to achieve.  The down Midlander was the first of the evening expresses to leave Euston so the pressure to reach Willesden was intense, because a slow climb would have an impact on all subsequent evening timings.  On Friday evenings this could mean 14 coaches and no pilot.  No wonder the Bushbury Jubilees were legendary, they may have been the best maintained locomotives on the BR(M) in the 1950s.

 

Just read Leander's post and yes, the heavier trains were often piloted, typically a Compound, then a Black 5 when the Compounds were withdrawn.  Having Camden at the top of the incline also meant that an additional push could be obtained.

[Focalplane]

It is also legendary and maybe true that, during the Locomotive Exchanges, the GWR King pulled its load out of Kings Cross with impressive ease.  But the Kings were designed to be workhorses, not racehorses!

[Bernard Lamb]

        If II remember aright didn't the Prioress speak 'after the scole of Stratford atte Bow;  for Frensshe of Parys was to her unknowe.'.

  I' sure that there might well be those here who know where Stratford atte Bow is?

 

       

That's it.

Bromley by Bow these days or just Bromley when I first new it.

I will be there tomorrow funnily enough.

One of the Tower Hamlets, places that had to supply Yeomen to serve at the Tower of London.

Unique amongst these as being a separate Parish and never coming under the control of St Dunstan's, Stepney.

Bernard

[Tony Wright]

Mine had a Spud bogie horrid little thing, it  managed to travel about a foot before it stripped one of the plastic Drive gears. Mine now has a Black Beetle power bogie and never had a problem again. I believe the Bullant bogie used by JW are even better. 

 

I believe the Bufferbeam should be Black not Red.

Does anyone else no what the colour of the beam should be on the Sentinel? 

 

Red or not, it ran round Bytham today, backwards and forwards, and towing a light load. That did it - it's now sold, and the buyer is over the moon! That's another £300.00 to a bereaved family. 

[Tony Wright]

The stiff climb out of Kings Cross to Finsbury Park (and further north) springs to mind. I read somewhere that the LNER did not like double heading, so the Pacifics had their work cut out going north at least for the first few miles. Then it was fairly flat and race horse country !!

 

Did the heavy single Pacific hauled expresses get a "shove" up to / through Gas Works tunnel ?

 

Stiff climb north out of Euston also - but they (LMS) also had powerful loco's. I don't know the helping arrangements (if any) there.

 

Brit15

Right from the early days, the GNR maxim was 'one train, one engine'. This lasted through LNER days on the ECML and into BR days. It was very rare to see a pilot in front of a Pacific or a V2, anywhere on the main line. 

 

It's true that the ECML had fewer steep gradients than its WCML 'competitor'. The Princess Coronations were the ideal locos for Shap and Beattock, with their great power. In the early-'50s, some A1s were shedded at Polmadie and regularly worked south to Crewe. I've read that the men preferred a Semi on the Birmingham-Glasgow, but thought the A1s better than a Prinny. 

 

As for 'horses for courses', apparently many of the men who worked those A3s which ran over the Settle-Carlisle line thought them the best express locos they'd ever had. Yet, they were designed for a much flatter road. 

[The Johnster]

I seem to recall from studying Chaucer for A Level that there was a nunnery there, notable for educating young girls of gentle and noble birth. So this was likely a little dig at some of the court ladies. A lot of Chaucer is 'in jokes' that were doubtless hilarious at the Court of King Richard II, but which fly over the heads of 99.9% of us.

 

(I dare say that in 600 years time most of the humour on RMWeb will baffle folk too.)

 

Some of it baffles me now...

[Headstock]

 

So an interesting piece of deciphering, but unfortunately of little use for my Gresley twin!

 

This should sort you out.

 

Isinglass drawing 4/600

 

LNER 4mm Scale Drawing

Size B coach

£ 7.50

113' 6" Gresley twin 1st / 3rd class sleeper Diagram 161 162

[thegreenhowards]

Evening Andy,

 

no look with regard to the Welwyn accident I see. The LNER lent the Aberdonian set to a film crew for the making of a motion picture, I shall see if I can look out the details and post latter. Also, the media covered the then Princess Elizabeth and sprogs travelled to Scotland on the Aberdonian in 1950. The carriage she boarded looks to have been freshly outshopped in crimson and cream for the occasion, SLF appears on the end. The second image is a screen grab from Newsreel of the event and shows the Princess departing the train.

Thanks, nice pictures. E1676 was a d227 66'6" SLF similar to the d.157s but with different spacing on the windows - and therefore more difficult to bash from Kirk kits!