Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

Sadly my layout does look as if an atom bomb has gone off in the vicinity, but that is because it is just a heap of mess.

However, Tony could you please just confirm what tubes you have in those shed ceiling lamps of yours? I'm not that happy with my loft lighting now that I have fitted defusers (more for protection of the tubes during construction).

Thank you,

Phil A. Ment 

Phil,

 

I'm having some more lights fitted at the M&GNR end, so I'll make a note of what those are. 

 

The others are 6' tubes giving white (daylight) light, and there are 11 of them (so far) in the 32' x 12' space. They give terrific overall lighting. 

[t-b-g]

Yo dudes......... "Its is the possessive form of it, meaning 'of it' (yes, we know that thanks). This is possibly why the difference between it's and its causes so many problems. Its, without an apostrophe, is a possessive form, where an apostrophe is usually required. It is similar to words like his and hers, neither of which needs an apostrophe."

Yea, the net thingy is yo bro bro.

Sad, I should have remembered that without looking it up.

However, I think there be a little flaw in that there explanation...........i.e. you wouldn't be saying hers clothes would you, but you could be saying the clothes were hers, thus the statement is correct for that ? However, you could say his clothes and the clothes are his.

I give up now as it is all about context ain't it?

Would one say the A3's tender is damaged or would it be better to say the tender of the A3 is damaged? I quite like the latter.

Phil's info service.

 

Pretty much what I were getting at. Usually the possessive has an apostrophe, except when it is an it, when it doesn't.

 

I just wondered why.

 

For a very brief moment before I realised that there were more important things in life. Like getting a meal and having a running session on the layout.

 

I may wonder about it again in the future, or I may not.

[St Enodoc]

Once her clothes are in the wardrobe there isn't enough room for his clothes, so his clothes become irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant, it's a hippopotamus (Flanders and Swann, c. 1960).

[St Enodoc]

Phil,

 

I'm having some more lights fitted at the M&GNR end, so I'll make a note of what those are. 

 

The others are 6' tubes giving white (daylight) light, and there are 11 of them (so far) in the 32' x 12' space. They give terrific overall lighting. 

I also use daylight tubes, without diffusers. The walls of the railway room are a very pale grey and ceiling is white. That gives a very even, neutral coverage.

[jrg1]

It's been a long time but wasn't there a bible of English language usage by a man named Fowler?  Does it still exist in these days of dumbing down everything?

A Dictionary of Modern English Usage (1926), by Henry Watson Fowler is the foundation of correct language useage.  Recommended by Sir Winston Churchill when he saw sloppy writing from his staff-is there a better recommendation?

[jwealleans]

Not quite the diagram requested, but Steve Banks has some pages on modelling sleeping cars on his website which might be useful.

 

Depending where you are, the Whitehouse twins who demonstrate carriage building at the Wakefield show have had one of these on their standfor the last few years and they might be able to help with drawings. I'm sure you could contact them through Wakefield club.

[chris p bacon]

This is an unashamed plug for our exhibition today in Biggleswade.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/118227-ebmrs-biggleswade-exhibition-18th-feb-2017/#ipboard_body

 

Tony and Mo are kindly going to be in attendance with a demonstration/ clinic stand, and all at the club look forward to welcoming them both back again. 

 

I'm on the door as usual, say hello on your way in.

 

 

 

Dave....................Chris.................No it's Dave

[thegreenhowards]

Not quite the diagram requested, but Steve Banks has some pages on modelling sleeping cars on his website which might be useful.Depending where you are, the Whitehouse twins who demonstrate carriage building at the Wakefield show have had one of these on their standfor the last few years and they might be able to help with drawings. I'm sure you could contact them through Wakefield club.

Thanks Jonathan,

 

Steve Bank's website is indeed a great resource, and has helped me get this far. I hadn't heard about the Whitehouse twins, so thanks for that tip - I'll follow that up.

 

Andy

[Clive Mortimore]

A Dictionary of Modern English Usage (1926), by Henry Watson Fowler is the foundation of correct language useage.  Recommended by Sir Winston Churchill when he saw sloppy writing from his staff-is there a better recommendation?

English as written by the so called upper classes, as imposed on working class children through the grammar school system but not as spoken by the majority of the population who retain their local dialects and other regional variations of English.

 

As a language which has evolved over centuries we cannot have a "rules" that were written nearly 100 years ago dictate how we develop.

[jrg1]

English as written by the so called upper classes, as imposed on working class children through the grammar school system but not as spoken by the majority of the population who retain their local dialects and other regional variations of English.

 

As a language which has evolved over centuries we cannot have a "rules" that were written nearly 100 years ago dictate how we develop.

Conversely, we should not tolerate poor pronounciation, bad useage and lazy construction.

My pet aversion is using Headed in the future tense rather than past tense-sloppy Americanism.

Descriptions such as Stoked, Awesome, Chill-Out can all go the same way as Sizzle-Value (Remember that?).

English as a language should be respected and not given to slovenly misuse.  Local dialects are fine-they reflect local culture, and I am sure that one day I will be able to understand the average Geordie and whatever drivel such as Divven Dunshus actually means. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Conversely, we should not tolerate poor pronounciation, bad useage and lazy construction.

My pet aversion is using Headed in the future tense rather than past tense-sloppy Americanism.

Descriptions such as Stoked, Awesome, Chill-Out can all go the same way as Sizzle-Value (Remember that?).

English as a language should be respected and not given to slovenly misuse.  Local dialects are fine-they reflect local culture, and I am sure that one day I will be able to understand the average Geordie and whatever drivel such as Divven Dunshus actually means. 

Hi jrg1

 

Most American people speak in a form of English that was used in Great Britain in the eighteenth century not the "standard" English that was developed by middle class merchants post industrial revolution when they established schools for their children, that later became the grammar schools. There was a need for a standard form of communication when trading. The upper classes never needed this as they had developed their own variations of English which they still use. Back to Americanisms, are they a reversion back to proper English.

 

I just love the old English dialects.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Focalplane]

Clive, I don't know about "most" Americans speaking eighteenth Century English, but you are certainly right that many old forms do persist, particularly in remote areas, such as the Ozarks of Oklahoma and Arkansas, so called Hillbilly Country.  The word "gotten" comes to mind as a word that is often heard over there.

 

There is an American TV programme (available in France, perhaps not in the UK) "A Series of Unfortunate Events", which is aimed at older children and highlights such misunderstandings as its and it's as part of the story line.  Subtle education, perhaps?

 

The reason for Fowler's manual was indeed to improve communication within the Civil Service.  I would have thought the book is needed even more these days now that we have evolved language into multiple choice questions and ticks in boxes.

[MJI]

I do Wikipedia, and browser searches, also email and texting.  But I don't trust Facebook or Twitter, and Ebay is a mystery not just in it's operation but in what the ^%*@ it's for.  I don't care how cheap you might be able to get somebody else's rubbish, if I've got to wait or check back to see what's going on it's too much bother...

 

And it bothers me when people state that they have 'won' something on Ebay; how have you won when you paid more than anyone else was willing to?  It's an auction, but takes place at the speed of continental drift, so you also lost time you could have spent with your kids, or up the pub, or with your girlfriend, or even modelling, you deluded loser....

 

Rant over.

 

Ebay is great for modelling supplies these days.

 

Some of the people running sales are known people within the hobby.

[coachmann]

When people are happy to sit back while being fed bullsh*t by liberalists, do-gooders and Government itself, they do themselves and their offspring no favors. My education was called 'Secondary Modern', which taught me the building blocks of English (English included good handwriting), mathematics plus a smattering of British royal history, world geography, science, art, physical training, woodwork or steelwork, soccer and cricket. Classes were A, A1, B, C and D. In top class we had the French language and acting thrown in. Art covered calligraphy and the usual drawing and painting pictures. By the age of 13 when i passed for Art School, I had done algebra and was into logarithms. People passing for art school came from all the school classes and so my own education came to an abrupt halt because everything was dumbed down to suit the least educated. However, this school did at least recognize dyslexia even though I didn't know what it was or that I had it! How had I managed to stay in an A class?  By trying harder because I did not want to be demoted to a B class. You learn for yourself if you have any sense. 

 

While my boys were in school, the Comprehensive Education system was introduced. Class designations from A to D were dropped and deliberately hidden so that the thickos would not feel under privileged. I had to visit the school to find out just where my lads stood education-wise, but it was so frustrating talking to these pinko's that I threw in some 'education' at home. It worked on my eldest and he enjoys the benefits. My youngest, however, has to get up at 3am six days a week to drive a large lorry.

 

Governments don't want an educated population, so the wise educate themselves if they want to make the most of their one and only crack at life. Slogging for lousy pay just to line other peoples pockets is not very clever.

[Fat Controller]

Clive, I don't know about "most" Americans speaking eighteenth Century English, but you are certainly right that many old forms do persist, particularly in remote areas, such as the Ozarks of Oklahoma and Arkansas, so called Hillbilly Country.  The word "gotten" comes to mind as a word that is often heard over there.

 

There is an American TV programme (available in France, perhaps not in the UK) "A Series of Unfortunate Events", which is aimed at older children and highlights such misunderstandings as its and it's as part of the story line.  Subtle education, perhaps?

 

The reason for Fowler's manual was indeed to improve communication within the Civil Service.  I would have thought the book is needed even more these days now that we have evolved language into multiple choice questions and ticks in boxes.

The French sometimes suggest that the Quebecoise form of French is related to 18th century French; there may be some truth in this, but there are probably elements of Breton and regional dialects/ languages as well.

Is that 'Series of Unfortunate Events' the Lemony Snicket one?.

Working at Eurotunnel for twenty plus years has been interesting, as a 'language', incorporating French and English, has evolved. You can have a Francophone asking 'C'etait un SPAD?', and an Anglophone saying 'Shall I give him a FREP' in the course of a brief exchange as a track circuit trips when  it shouldn't.

[jrg1]

Hi jrg1

 

Most American people speak in a form of English that was used in Great Britain in the eighteenth century not the "standard" English that was developed by middle class merchants post industrial revolution when they established schools for their children, that later became the grammar schools. There was a need for a standard form of communication when trading. The upper classes never needed this as they had developed their own variations of English which they still use. Back to Americanisms, are they a reversion back to proper English.

 

I just love the old English dialects.

You may be quite correct-although I understand that the Australian form of English dates from transportation days, and therefore is Old English.  I also wonder why the Australian accent is universal with little differentation across the continent, when the English accents can change completely over a few miles eg Lincoln and Newark, 15 miles apart, and Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire accents.

[Clearwater]

You may be quite correct-although I understand that the Australian form of English dates from transportation days, and therefore is Old English.  I also wonder why the Australian accent is universal with little differentation across the continent, when the English accents can change completely over a few miles eg Lincoln and Newark, 15 miles apart, and Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire accents.

Having met a fair number of Aussies in recent years, id have said there is a marked difference in accents from Melbourne to Sydney to Perth. New Zealanders also have a distinctive tang.

 

David

[HeavyDuty]

Conversely, we should not tolerate poor pronounciation, bad useage and lazy construction.

My pet aversion is using Headed in the future tense rather than past tense-sloppy Americanism.

Descriptions such as Stoked, Awesome, Chill-Out can all go the same way as Sizzle-Value (Remember that?).

English as a language should be respected and not given to slovenly misuse. Local dialects are fine-they reflect local culture, and I am sure that one day I will be able to understand the average Geordie and whatever drivel such as Divven Dunshus actually means.

But isn't "Americanism" as you put it just a local dialect, thus acceptable? You are contradicting yourself.

[Focalplane]

The French sometimes suggest that the Quebecoise form of French is related to 18th century French; there may be some truth in this, but there are probably elements of Breton and regional dialects/ languages as well.

Is that 'Series of Unfortunate Events' the Lemony Snicket one?.

Working at Eurotunnel for twenty plus years has been interesting, as a 'language', incorporating French and English, has evolved. You can have a Francophone asking 'C'etait un SPAD?', and an Anglophone saying 'Shall I give him a FREP' in the course of a brief exchange as a track circuit trips when  it shouldn't.

 

When I worked on the Gulf Coast I met and associated with many Arcadians (Cajuns) who speak an interesting patois that includes many English transliterations, the most recognizable of which is "laissez les bon temps roulez".  When I try to explain this to my French neighbours they adopt a most quizzical expression!

 

Yes, it is a new version of the Lemony Snicket story.  I am hoping it is available in the UK because I think my grandchildren would love it - ridiculous yet educational, what better way to, in the words of the right wing American talk show host Rush Limbaugh, stop filling children's skulls with mush.

[Fat Controller]

French regional dialects could well be a different language to that defined by the Académie Française. I was talking to one of my Lyonnaise god-daughter's great-uncles about life during the Occupation. He said the Germans recognised the Beaujolaise as being a 'sensitive' area, laying as it did on the boundaries of Occupied and Vichy France. The occupying forces went to great lengths to ensure that officers with relatively fluent French were made available; the one thing they hadn't taken into account was that few people normally spoke 'French', as a stranger would understand it, leaving the Germans understanding perhaps a quarter of what was said. Claude said that it was only when radio became available in the countryside that the patois lost its importance.

[teaky]

"A Series of Unfortunate Events" is available on Netflix in the UK.

[The Stationmaster]

French regional dialects could well be a different language to that defined by the Académie Française. I was talking to one of my Lyonnaise god-daughter's great-uncles about life during the Occupation. He said the Germans recognised the Beaujolaise as being a 'sensitive' area, laying as it did on the boundaries of Occupied and Vichy France. The occupying forces went to great lengths to ensure that officers with relatively fluent French were made available; the one thing they hadn't taken into account was that few people normally spoke 'French', as a stranger would understand it, leaving the Germans understanding perhaps a quarter of what was said. Claude said that it was only when radio became available in the countryside that the patois lost its importance.

 

Amusingly when we stayed in a friend's flat in Nice about the turn of the century I used to pop round to the baker's every morning for the bread etc and usually took my son with me duly trying to get some understanding of french into, and I always did the ordering and payment etc in French.  On our final morning I bade farewell to the lady who ran the shop and she said that she hoped we would have a nice journey returning to our home in Paris.  Seemingly my way of speaking French was regarded by the locals in Nice as a Parisian accent but i suppose hardly surprising in view of the amount of time I spent while at work dealing with and meeting people based in Paris.  So even in 1999 some regionality seemed to survive in French accents.

[Focalplane]

Amusingly when we stayed in a friend's flat in Nice about the turn of the century I used to pop round to the baker's every morning for the bread etc and usually took my son with me duly trying to get some understanding of french into, and I always did the ordering and payment etc in French.  On our final morning I bade farewell to the lady who ran the shop and she said that she hoped we would have a nice journey returning to our home in Paris.  Seemingly my way of speaking French was regarded by the locals in Nice as a Parisian accent but i suppose hardly surprising in view of the amount of time I spent while at work dealing with and meeting people based in Paris.  So even in 1999 some regionality seemed to survive in French accents.

 

Believe me, regionality does still exist!  In Languedoc the older folk speak occitaine (Langue d'oc, the language of Oc) and there is even a local radio station Lengadoc which airs traditional music and uses occitaine.  One good friend, who is a retired school teacher, is incredibly French, despising anyone who comes from nearby (5 km) Catalonia.  In her mind they simply don't exist!  Conversely, many people in French Catalonia replace their registration plate "flag" with the red and orange stripes that represent Catalonia.  Talk about confusing!

 

I do wonder if there is a French equivalent of its and it's!

[glo41f]

From trains to regional languages via syntax and grammar, it is all here! What an amazing read this thread is as we cover so many topics which are tangential to the main point which is our respect for LB and the wonderful creation it is. I recently saw a map of the UK where regional accents were marked  and the whole of Scotland and much of Northern England was denoted "Cannot understand any of them!" I thought it was funny. Thank you all for making this thread a joy to read and bring sunshine into quite dreary winter days.

 

Now back to trains.

 

Martin Long

[raymw]

I heard a story, that during ww2 we wanted to send coded messages to India. They had a guy in UK, and another in India, who had both learned French in the same English school. They conversed over open radio channels, and unless you had learned French at the same school, you would never understand what was being said.

Language evolves, and provided folk understand what is being said, in many situations it doesn't matter if the grammar/punctuation is incorrect. In other cases it does matter. Many folk write as they speak I often notice posts here where folk say something along the lines of,  'I could of done this differently' I know what is meant, and just because a grammatical error has been made, it does not invalidate the reasoning of the rest of the sentence. The bbc makes plenty of mistakes these days, 'bought' instead of 'brought' quite often. More important, is when there is ambiguity - such as 'I'll see you next Sunday/this Sunday', 'can I lend/borrow' and so on. Most folk do not appreciate rivet counters, however - unless they've been asked to count said rivets..Fora, emails are informal communications, so an informal approach is expected, it can't be much else, if you don't know names or qualifications.