Wright writes.....

[The Johnster]

Bankers go on the back, a pilot engine goes on the front of the train.

Most companies/regions attached the pilot ahead of the train engine e.g. on Grayrigg bank north from Oxenholme. The GWR/BR(WR) just loved to be different in attaching the pilot loco to the train with the train  engine attached in front. This was the practice over the South Devon banks although someone with greater knowledge than me would possibly be able to explain why this practice was the case.

 

Helper is an Americanism.

 

Sorry, Tony, for taking this on a bit of a tangent.

 

And I am sorry, Tony, as well, for this further tangentialisation.  The practice of attaching banking engines 'inside' the train engine on the GWR/BR(W) was due to the belief that the driver of the train loco was in charge of the train and hence should be at it's head, not a bad idea if you are fussy about 'best practice'.  It was not used by the Severn Tunnel bankers or at Abergavenny for the Llanvihangel bankers, where the more normal methods of attaching in front or simply pushing in rear were employed, though I do not know why this is so!  The GWR and it's BR(W) successor certainly delighted in being different, or 'better' as they called it, but in this case there was a reason for the faff of coupling an assisting loco inside the train loco.

 

AFAIK all bankers assisting in the rear (pushing) everywhere were uncoupled, and simply dropped off the rear of the train when the work was done.  As such, they carried head and tail lamps and the brake van of the train being assisted carried it's normal lamps, local instructions catering for the block section anomalies.  Special signalling arrangements were provided on the Lickey as well.

 

A banking engine is one uncoupled providing assistance at the rear of the train, a pilot is one coupled providing assistance at the front of the train, and the GW style coupled inside the train engine version was simply described as providing assistance.  All of these methods of working as well as locos coupled in the middle of the train are described as 'helpers' in American practice.

[thegreenhowards]

This should sort you out.

 

Isinglass drawing 4/600

 

 

 

LNER 4mm Scale Drawing

 

 

Size B coach

 

 

£ 7.50

 

 

113' 6" Gresley twin 1st / 3rd class sleeper Diagram 161 162

Andrew,

 

My understanding is that the Isinglass drawings only have the one side shown, similar to the official LNER drawings which I already have courtesy of Steve Banks' article:

 

http://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/262-the-aberdonian

 

I based the Kirk cut and shut that I showed in my original post on the Aberdonian on those drawings, but it is the other side of the coaches that I need to see. Would the Isinglass drawings show the other side?

 

Andy

[JeremyC]

And I am sorry, Tony, as well, for this further tangentialisation. The practice of attaching banking engines 'inside' the train engine on the GWR/BR(W) was due to the belief that the driver of the train loco was in charge of the train and hence should be at it's head, not a bad idea if you are fussy about 'best practice'. It was not used by the Severn Tunnel bankers or at Abergavenny for the Llanvihangel bankers, where the more normal methods of attaching in front or simply pushing in rear were employed, though I do not know why this is so! The GWR and it's BR(W) successor certainly delighted in being different, or 'better' as they called it, but in this case there was a reason for the faff of coupling an assisting loco inside the train loco.

 

AFAIK all bankers assisting in the rear (pushing) everywhere were uncoupled, and simply dropped off the rear of the train when the work was done. As such, they carried head and tail lamps and the brake van of the train being assisted carried it's normal lamps, local instructions catering for the block section anomalies. Special signalling arrangements were provided on the Lickey as well.

 

A banking engine is one uncoupled providing assistance at the rear of the train, a pilot is one coupled providing assistance at the front of the train, and the GW style coupled inside the train engine version was simply described as providing assistance. All of these methods of working as well as locos coupled in the middle of the train are described as 'helpers' in American practice.

Putting the pilot inside the train engine was also North British Railway practice. Regarding bankers I thought that they had to be coupled up on passenger trains.

Jeremy

Edited February 22, 2017 by JeremyC

[jwealleans]

Would the Isinglass drawings show the other side?

All those I have show both sides along with any alterations.

 

If I'd realised there was one and you didn't have it I'd have sent you there first. You also get notes on the prototype - history, livery, alterations, use and disposal.

 

They're indispensable.

[chris p bacon]

Does anyone else no what the colour of the beam should be on the Sentinel? 

 

Red or not, it ran round Bytham today, backwards and forwards, and towing a light load. That did it - it's now sold, and the buyer is over the moon! That's another £300.00 to a bereaved family. 

Someone might know.....

 

Sorry Tony...I couldn't resist.

 

The C1 is superb, I'm tempted but I have a DJH one in the build queue.

Edited February 22, 2017 by chris p bacon

[micknich2003]

Further to the discusion of Banking Engines/Pilot engines, I don't think it was the practise in the UK, to employ "Mid Train Helpers". Can anyone prove me wrong? Certainly on the H&BRly it was permited to couple two goods trains together and work them as one, I'm sure this practise was not uniquie to the H&BRly.

[micklner]

Someone might know.....

 

Sorry Tony...I couldn't resist.

 

The C1 is superb, I'm tempted but I have a DJH one in the build queue.

 

Just found this on a Goggle search . Bufferbeam is just about on view in the photo.

 

 

 

Link to my build of my Hope version on the old RM Web. Since the posts the Spud was changed to a Black Beetle.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=547&start=250

Edited February 22, 2017 by micklner

[Leander]

Regarding bankers I thought that they had to be coupled up on passenger trains.

Jeremy

Not necessarily. Bankers weren't attached to passenger trains on Camden Bank, nor, I believe, the Lickey Incline.

[Focalplane]

Why is a discussion on bankers/helpers off topic?  God knows there are enough deviations on Tony's marvelous thread, which is one reason why it is marvelous.  The other reason it is marvelous, of course, is Tony!

 

OK, get back to discussing LNER coaches, I'll get back to modelling.  I am joking, of course, about the coaches.

[Headstock]

 

 

Andrew,

 

My understanding is that the Isinglass drawings only have the one side shown, similar to the official LNER drawings which I already have courtesy of Steve Banks' article:

 

http://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/262-the-aberdonian

 

I based the Kirk cut and shut that I showed in my original post on the Aberdonian on those drawings, but it is the other side of the coaches that I need to see. Would the Isinglass drawings show the other side?

 

Andy

 

Andy,

 

I would agree with Jonathan. I have never had an Isinglass drawing that doesn't show both sides. Well worth getting as I think that you have made a slight error in your own drawing.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Headstock

[Headstock]

When I was shed master on Tebay I would love a bit of banking.

[The Johnster]

Putting the pilot inside the train engine was also North British Railway practice. Regarding bankers I thought that they had to be coupled up on passenger trains.

Jeremy

 

They weren't on the Lickey, which was subject to local instructions and methods of working, or at Abergavenny.  The ones at Severn Tunnel were attached to the front of passenger trains as a pilot.  But it is an important point, as it not only has implications for through braking and ease (or otherwise) of detachment, and for the application of block regulations so that the banker was not regarded as a divided portion of the train, but for the provision of the headlamp on the banking loco and the tail lamp on the train.  Practice may have been different elsewhere and in all cases would be subject to local instructions, i.e. the Sectional Appendix to the Working Timetable for the area concerned.

Edited February 22, 2017 by The Johnster

[Headstock]

I never had to bank the A1 on the Birmingham Glasgow. North British in BR blue and also Auld Reekie in BR dirty green. Big strong DJH jobs.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Headstock

[APOLLO]

High speed banking on Shap - I hope the banker is coupled !!

 

 

Brit15

[Focalplane]

I did my geological fieldwork for my Ph.D. at Shap in the summer of 1968, just too late to see any steam at all.  The previous year I did see a 9F at Kirby Stephen.  Shap post-steam was boring but at least I had no distractions from the work at hand.  Incidentally, my fieldwork was subsequently covered by the M6 construction over Docker Beck, a tributary of the River Lowther.  That's one way of never being able to have your work checked, bring on the bulldozers!

 

As to different rules for different inclines I think it is all about the slope and the distance involved.

 

As to coaches, well, here is part of my day's efforts:

 

 

Sidelines LMS bogie in 7mm scale.  The other one is almost complete.  All in a day's work!

[Headstock]

High speed banking on Shap - I hope the banker is coupled !!

 

 

Brit15

 

Now you've done it, I've just been watching steam over Shap for the last hour. We had a token standard 4 MT on Tebay, I can't say it got used much with so many Fowler and Fairburn tanks to chose from.

[St Enodoc]

Did the heavy single Pacific hauled expresses get a "shove" up to / through Gas Works tunnel ?

That was normal at many termini where the incoming loco was trapped between the train and the buffers. The rules required this loco to draw forward to the platform end when the train departed. Generally the loco would give the train a bit of a leg up in the process. Very helpful where there was a climb out of the station - Glasgow Queen Street (High Level) is one such with which I was familiar.

[DougN]

I did my geological fieldwork for my Ph.D. at Shap in the summer of 1968, just too late to see any steam at all.  The previous year I did see a 9F at Kirby Stephen.  Shap post-steam was boring but at least I had no distractions from the work at hand.  Incidentally, my fieldwork was subsequently covered by the M6 construction over Docker Beck, a tributary of the River Lowther.  That's one way of never being able to have your work checked, bring on the bulldozers!

 

As to different rules for different inclines I think it is all about the slope and the distance involved.

 

As to coaches, well, here is part of my day's efforts:

 

image1.JPG

 

Sidelines LMS bogie in 7mm scale.  The other one is almost complete.  All in a day's work!

Focalplane I agree all problems can be removed by Bull dozer or my preference a 25tonne excavator.....

(I was not sure  if I should put "like" for the bogie, "Funny" for the bull dozer, or "Supportive" for both) 

[coachmann]

I agree a pair of Sidelines 0 gauge LMS bogies are all in a days work.....They generally take 8 hours!  It looks like you have not added the cross members that go between the two tie bars on welded type bogies.

Edited February 23, 2017 by coachmann

[thegreenhowards]

Andy,

 

I would agree with Jonathan. I have never had an Isinglass drawing that doesn't show both sides. Well worth getting as I think that you have made a slight error in your own drawing.

Thanks Both,

 

Sounds like the perfect solution and they also have the D.11 Restaurant Car in case I ever get round to building that! I'd still love to see a photo of a d.161/2 should any come to light, if only to check that they are not a figment of the carriage workings imagination!

 

Andy

[uax6]

I painted the original NuCast steam railcar for display and boxlid picture in the 1980's. Quite a weighty model, as was the GWR one from Anbrico.

 

Did you paint the old Wills kits display locos too Larry?

 

Andy G

[Focalplane]

I agree a pair of Sidelines 0 gauge LMS bogies are all in a days work.....They generally take 8 hours!  It looks like you have not added the cross members that go between the two tie bars on welded type bogies.

 

Larry, I knew there was something missing.  Truth is the parts or indeed any mention of the cross members are not in the box.  I seem to remember you added them to your Sidelines build so I need to find the reference and add them before they get primed.  Here is the link:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116060-coachmanns-4mm-7mm-wb/?p=2509396

 

I have enough scrap!

 

Edit:  fixed!

Edited February 23, 2017 by Focalplane

[Headstock]

Thanks Both,

 

Sounds like the perfect solution and they also have the D.11 Restaurant Car in case I ever get round to building that! I'd still love to see a photo of a d.161/2 should any come to light, if only to check that they are not a figment of the carriage workings imagination!

 

Andy

 

Morning Andy,

 

its been quite a while since I looked in detail at east coast expresses, being at home today I have the opportunity to do so. If you remember I asked you about a carriage that you identified as possibly a dia 95 or 109 with the vestibule doors inboard of the toilets. With regard to photographic evidence, this type seems to be a consistent part of the formation coupled immediately behind the BG on Northbound workings. This applies to both pre-war photographs and on through the fifties. The BG Is usually one of the dia 45 steel vans then later the standard Thompson design.

 

If sleeping cars are anything like the workings of Restaurant cars, with their higher maintenance requirements, then swap outs and best fits may have been common. I suspect that an exact match to the CWN at any given time may not be possible and would actually create a more realistic depiction. In contrast, the GC workings that I am very familiar with are generally much more efficient at matching the CWN's, even if it may not look that way to the casual observer.

 

As an example of the above, Banks and Carter has a photo on page161 of the Northbound train emerging from Hadley wood tunnel in June 55. Behind the locomotive (A1 Great Eastern) the formation is identified as a Thompson BG and SLT then a 65' 6'' Gresley SLF and other indistinct Gresley carriages.

 

Out of interest, what will be the motive power for your train? Also, what part of the southern end of the East coast mainline are you modelling?

Edited February 23, 2017 by Headstock

[New Haven Neil]

I'm pretty sure southbound trains that stopped at Durham were banked when required from the rear, a G5 being recalled in photos.  Not coupled, as they would drop off at Relly Mill.

[coachmann]

Did you paint the old Wills kits display locos too Larry?

 

Andy G

Not sure i ever worked for Wills. I did display and box lids for GEM, Anbrico, Westward Models, Cotswold models, Alan Harris, NuCast, Duchess Models, Graham Varley, Lawrence Scale and many others. The trade and dealers kept me as busy as I wanted to be and advertising wasn't necessary.