Peco launch RTR 009 range

[Hobby]

This is still an untested market for UK outline RTR models. The cost of tooling for rolling stock is many times less than for a loco, and this is a punt into the unknown and a risk. I think Peco know exactly what they're doing.

 

Well said, and I tend to think that the SG-ers commenting on here are confusing the OO and N market with the narrow gauge market whereas they are very different beasts. I'm not convinced that Peco have set out to encourage the "train set" mentality market, if they were to do a full "set" it would cost more than the equivalent OO or N set due to sales being nowhere near as high. They have decided that there is a market for rtr 009 and have decided to test the water. If that test proves successful then I've no doubt a loco will follow, from someone, but of what prototype Lord knows as the many discussions by 009-ers who have a vested interest can't even decided on that with everyone coming up with something different....

 

Someone said Peco missed a "huge" opportunity... I don't think they have... Even with sales to preserved lines as souvenirs the 009 market is TINY compared with OO and N, and I can't see that changing in the future...

[Kenton]

I'm not convinced that Peco have set out to encourage the "train set" mentality market, if they were to do a full "set" it would cost more than the equivalent OO or N set due to sales being nowhere near as high.

 

But if they are not aiming for the OO9 novice then presumably they are aiming at folk like me. The trouble is that I have absolutely no interest in the L&B or in bashing a perfectly good RTR van/carriage when simple kits are available that more than adequately meet my needs. A RTR loco on the other hand not only would provide a quick easy and presumably good running motive power to any layout but also has potential to be cannabalised into the esoteric needs of most NG modellers.

 

I'm not saying that Peco have deep pockets for investment but they are certainly deeper than the small cottage supplier currently supplying loco kits. Even going the relatively simple step of commissioning a chassis for their existing 009 loco kits would have been a step forward (though I admit these too have limited appeal being limited in scope.

 

I guess my objections to this "development" are two fold - The choice of L&B specifically and exclusively (OK there may well be other more appealing and useful items in the planning) - but also in the lack of foresight in the loco side, and I hope that this is just oversight or bad announcement planning and we will see something new either directly or supported by Peco on that front in the very near future.

[Hobby]

Ok, the choice of prototype has been explained already, but just to recap they chose it because:

 

1. It was their local line

2. The prototype was small enough to make the models suitable for the many small lines which were scattered over the UK

3. They could do unlettered ones which make good generic stock... Much better than a lot of stock, say the Ffestinog or GVT, for instance, where they are clearly line-specific.

 

Their choice of a couple of bogie coaches and several wagons in different colours and liveries will make up a nice train, or even look nice in a siding in the corner of a OO layout... The lettered ones will provide an inexpensive souvenir for people visiting the preserved lines... People may fork out £20 for a couple of nice looking wagons but how many would bother for a loco which would be likely to be £100+? They are clearly aiming their sales at the current 009 modeller, souvenirs market and people who might be tempted to dabble in a feeder line. Their whitemetal kits or the current HOe locos will provide suitable motive power (and despite previous comments most chassis are available at reasonable prices if you are patient)...

 

You keep harking on about the lack of loco, despite several of us having pointed out why Peco haven't done one, if the market is as good as you say it is why don't you produce one, a really money spinner from what you say... Though I suspect that you have doubts just like the rest of us and would rather someone else lose their money... Perhaps Peco's approach is not all that daft afterall, they know they have a market for rtr rolling stock, if sales are enough then perhaps a loco may follow... But that's what we've been saying all along!

[PaulRhB]

Just a thought for the critics of Peco's approach, Accucraft started off producing the L&B wagons in G scale and have now single handedley driven the rtr G scale market for the UK. As a result of the success they now produce a range of rtr electric locos as well as coaches and W&L stock. The initial take up was of people already working in the scale using existing locos.

[Kenton]

They are not aiming at you specifically, K

just people like me, sitting on the fence, dabbling in, not dedicated to, vaguely interested in, layout space constrained

if the market is as good as you say it is why don't you produce one, a really money spinner from what you say... Though I suspect that you have doubts just like the rest of us and would rather someone else lose their money... Perhaps Peco's approach is not all that daft afterall...

 

You have made it perfectly clear why not. Capital investment - though in my case time is a big reason - the same as for not producing an etched kit - I spend my time building them. I already made the point that Peco's pockets are considerably deeper for such an investment than any small supplier and they are better placed with both marketing scope and prominence to launch such a venture. The small suppliers in OO9 that do supply chassis to their kits Lawton, Madge, Meridian all supply them as add on kits and all credit to them for even this, but they are hardly RTR by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I don't think that I have suggested that the market is good. Just that in OO9 there is no entry level. I would agree that the SG modellers wishing to include NG are very very small - possibly as small in number as those who would wish to model the L&B.

 

And BTW I don't particularly like the reference to them "train set" folk or "SG" folk as it smacks of a certain snobbery, (something that most NG modellers detest). A sort of you cannot model in OO9 unless you scratch build everything statement.

[Oldddudders]

I already made the point that Peco's pockets are considerably deeper for such an investment than any small supplier and they are better placed with both marketing scope and prominence to launch such a venture.

And why are Peco's pockets considerably deeper? Because they've been in this game a very long time and have made consistently good decisions about product planning and sales potential. I wouldn't bet on them changing that policy any time soon. If the rolling stock sells well, they may feel inclined to take the extra step - but as has been pointed out, the existing prototypes on tourist lines are many and varied, even in the same locale e.g. North Wales, so choice isn't easy without going for several at once, which is not a Peco trait.

[Hobby]

just people like me, sitting on the fence, dabbling in, not dedicated to, vaguely interested in, layout space constrained

 

But as I've pointed out people such as you are not their main market, though some will take the plunge, others will not!

 

 

You have made it perfectly clear why not. Capital investment

 

Whilst Peco's pockets may be deeper, they aren't daft enough to fork out a lot of money on a whim, and let's face it, as both you and I agree, an 009 RTR loco would be a gamble which is not Peco's normal method of business...

 

Just that in OO9 there is no entry level.

 

There is the Minitrains set for anyone wanting to dabble, Peco's stock will add to that...

 

And BTW I don't particularly like the reference to them "train set" folk or "SG" folk as it smacks of a certain snobbery, (something that most NG modellers detest). A sort of you cannot model in OO9 unless you scratch build everything statement.

 

Why on earth would you read at as snobbery, I have used the same "phrase" for all, SG folk, NG folk, train set folk, 009-ers, I'm an HOe-er! They all just a way of differentiating between various types of modeller. I have RTR stock, kit built and scratchbuilt stock on my layouts if you'd cared to check them out so if anything I object to you insinuating something that wasn't there in the first place!

[Kenton]

Has any one pointed out that for a realistic rolling stock roster wagon requirements outweigh those of locomotion by a factor of several dozen?

 

In the real world it does but I believe in the modelling world much less so. Perhaps the desire to see things moving and witnessed by the popular growth of the MPD/TMD layout. Though I don't think I have yet seen a NG MPD layout... I wonder why?

[beast66606]

Perhaps those who criticise Peco for not producing a loco should dig into their own pockets and finance one ?

[Hobby]

Though I don't think I have yet seen a NG MPD layout... I wonder why?

 

Nigel Adams did at least one, called "009 MPD" in his book "Layouts for Limited Spaces" and I know of at least two others as someone did a model of the L&B facilities at Barnstaple and there was another of the Tallylyn facilities, though I can't remember where I saw them... I suspect the reason we don't see more is that in NG is more of a space thing, same as you don't see many in N or TT, you can usually fit in a station in your allotted space in the house, something that's not always possible in OO or O... Though with the number of locos i have I think an MPD may be a good way forward sometimes!! Thinking about it the set-up on the Children's Railway in Budapest may be worth looking at... The passenger line terminates at a "through" island platform and the line then continues a few yards into the loco depot and rolling stock storage area, it even has a turntable! Mmm, now there's an idea for the future, thanks Kenton!

[roundhouse]

There was a model of Barnstaple Pilton yard at Warley a few weeks ago.

 

Also there is a very nice 009 South African layout with an MPD housing quite a few Garratts etc.aswell as a station.

 

We had plans for a MPD on Bourne Valley but so far its not actually come to fruition.

[PLD]

So to summarise: the critics say it's no good, or Peco shouldn't have bothered because either they haven't immediately produced the entire stock of the L&B, or haven't chosen their favourite line...

 

I say well done Peco for taking a punt and potentially opening up a new market of RTR 009. OK its not perfect as there isn't a full range available (yet), but give it a chance: it's a start, and do you know what else Peco or other manufacturers may have up their sleeves? Can you say with any certainly there isn't a loco in development??

 

The choice of L&B stock is a sensible starting point given the L&B focus at Warley this year and they are a common carrier type so sufficiently generic to be useable on non-prototype layouts, but I agree in the longer term expanding the range to include still-existing preserved lines (possibly Tal-y-llyn or Welshpool) may offer greater long term potential...

 

We'll know in two or three years time if Peco made the right call when L&B layouts become as common as GWR BLTs and Modern Image MPDs...

[Ozexpatriate]

I'm not convinced that Peco have set out to encourage the "train set" mentality market, if they were to do a full "set" it would cost more than the equivalent OO or N set due to sales being nowhere near as high.

What's "train set" mentality, as opposed to RTR? I get the feeling from the rest of your post you don't mean Granddad buying a trainset for little Johnny? To me a "train set" is a locomotive, train and at least an oval of track.

 

They have decided that there is a market for rtr 009 and have decided to test the water. If that test proves successful then I've no doubt a loco will follow,

I agree with this assessment.

 

Personally I'm delighted by the choice of the L&B. I will purchase these items - wagons and coaches. I'd also like to purchase an RTR L&B 009 locomotive (SR Maunsell olive) and would do so if one were available.

 

I don't buy 'trainsets'. I do buy RTR with an intent to run them on a layout I want to build. I'm not planning to do Barnstaple Town but the idea of a short 009 branch next to a mainline west country station is very appealing to me - even if I have to freelance or create an alternative reality to accomodate it.

[Neil]

I welcome Peco's initiative, I both hope and strongly suspect it will do well for them. To the 'what about a loco' whingers I'd say that a start has to be somewhere and that a pair of wagons and a pair of carriages is a pretty good start, especially when the track, accessories and kits that Peco produce for 009 are factored in. Though I'd question the helpfulness of the wording of Mr Skipsey's pronouncement 'Perhaps those who criticise Peco for not producing a loco should dig into their own pockets and finance one ?' I guess that the sentiment behind it isn't too far from my view that it seems a bit ungenerous to criticise Peco for giving us the first mass market, British outline, rtr rolling stock in 009.

[colin penfold]

I don't like being accused of whinging. I'm certainly not doing that. I am simply of the opinion that if PECO hope to open up a new market for ready to run british outline 009 they need to do a loco. Unlike their wagon offerings in other scales nobody else produces an RTR loco to pull them. It's simple surely, if you want people who only buy RTR to buy 009 they need a whole train, including that most vital of components, the motive power. As to risk and investment and PECO's ability to produce the loco, get a partner. Ford don't make radios, but you can buy a Ford car with one in.

[beast66606]

Though I'd question the helpfulness of the wording of Mr Skipsey's pronouncement 'Perhaps those who criticise Peco for not producing a loco should dig into their own pockets and finance one ?'

 

(Was there any need for the first part of the comment, trying to provoke a response by any chance)

 

Anybody can be free and easy with others money, putting your money where your mouth is the hard part.

[Neil]

I don't like being accused of whinging. I'm certainly not doing that.

 

My apologies if you've taken this personally, my turn of phrase was aimed at the negativity of the glass half empty posts that crop up in this thread.

[Neil]

(Was there any need for the first part of the comment, trying to provoke a response by any chance)

 

Anybody can be free and easy with others money, putting your money where your mouth is the hard part.

 

Actually, trying to find some common ground. My apologies if I've caused offence, I broadly agree with the sentiment but challenging critics to put their money where their mouth is doesn't move the debate any further on.

[beast66606]

Actually, trying to find some common ground. My apologies if I've caused offence, I broadly agree with the sentiment but challenging critics to put their money where their mouth is doesn't move the debate any further on.

 

No problem, I know it's not the best answer but I hope that it might make them pause and think "Blimey, it costs money to produce something, and that something might not sell, so I could lose out so before I condemn a manufacturer for not producing x,y or z I'll understand that they need a business case, which will hopefully show that the goods will sell well enough to produce a profit, and they don't have infinite amounts of money to spend on R&D" (etc)

[flyingsignalman]

Are RTR 009 locos an urgent necessity?

 

Of the 4 locos below only the left hand one was buillt by me, the rest being obtained from the 009 Society second hand stall over the years.

 

(and the one I built still needs the details to be applied!)

[Kenton]

Perhaps those who criticise Peco for not producing a loco should dig into their own pockets and finance one ?

 

But it is not ALL about money. Time, access to research material, more time, access and an understanding of the processes involved(and previous experience of manufacturing similar/same items, producing and packaging and marketing the end result. All these and many other thinks than simply cash in (or borrowed from) the bank make the statement glib. Peco already can tick most of the boxes with the exception of possibly cash, but if they approached the banks with a business model I am certain their case as a long established profitable business in the field would enable them to obtain finance.

 

By far the best argument against us naysayers I think is the fact that there may well be further announcements round the corner, perhaps still in discussion. But the rolling stock was "forced" out by the monstrosity of Warley. Where all the big players have to announce something new or the rumour mill will start suggesting they are going under.

[arran]

HI All

 

009 is at the Chicken and egg point for RTR, now Peco have laid some eggs Please don't eat them and some how i think there will be chickens.

 

But if some of you have a spare £100 000.00 kicking about get on with it, personally i think you could sell 3000 units and cover your costs.

 

Regards Arran

[ben racey]

I'd echo the welcome development of these wagons, coaches - and will be purchasing a few generic and L & B models in due course. As has been mentioned, the immediate lack of locomotives produced by peco is not a particular problem at present - there's plenty available either of british outline via ebay/009 society, or of a slightly more european outline via liliput etc. ~In due course, I'll look forward to a L & B loco!

 

Regards

 

Richard.

[queensquare]

 

By far the best argument against us naysayers I think is the fact that there may well be further announcements round the corner, perhaps still in discussion. But the rolling stock was "forced" out by the monstrosity of Warley. Where all the big players have to announce something new or the rumour mill will start suggesting they are going under.

 

Sometimes I find this extreme negativity beggars belief. Where does this stuff about news being 'forced' out and 'monstrosity of Warley' come from!!

 

Personally I think Peco taking a punt on completely new products in the midst of a recession is great news and shows great faith in the hobby.

 

Jerry

[Butler Henderson]

Nothing forced out by Warley by all accounts as Peco apparently intended to make the annoucement in a pre Warley RM