Interview An interview with Simon Kohler

[Robin Brasher]

I do not think the problems Hornby have experienced are just due to supply. There has been an overproduction of some items like the blue and grey Brighton Belle and the market for Pullmans is saturated. I think that Hornby has also grossly underestimated the demand for the Maunsell Pull-Push. Anyone with a late crest M7 would want a Maunsell Pull-Push to go with it just like anyone with a GWR 0-4-4T would want a GWR autocoach. There was total confusion when the supply of the Maunsell Pull-Push sets were sold within an hour with some people saying it had been discontinued and others saying Hornby would be making another batch. It is not the first or last time manufacturers have been surprised by the demand for Southern items. Some shops have already sold out of the Bachmann SE&CR C class. Hornby needs to get more in touch with modellers and shops. I would be happy if Hornby did not produce any new items in 2013 and satisfied their customers with what they had promised to produce last year and this year.

 

I also do not think the Stock Brokers in the City have got a clue what Hornby produces. They still think Hornby produces Hornby-Dublo trains. Hornby needs to invite them to Margate to show them what they are producing to get them to buy shares.

[Andy Y]

I'm a big fan of Hornby's and it wasn't the right venue to hit them with the 4VEP, but the 'design clever' concept is a double edged sword. If it means no sprung buffers on the big GWR tanks, OK. If it led to some of the compromises made on the 4VEP (like the choice of motor) or a move back to moulded handrails on boilers then I'm not so keen.

 

An unasked question that I feel is in bounds is "what criteria do Hornby use to position a product in the Railroad Range versus their normal range?". I'd be interested in understanding some of their pricing decisions too, but I can't think of a way that question could be asked that would encourage a direct answer.

 

It may seem like a fob-off at this point but it will be worth evaluating those concerns when the announcements are made but we can certainly say that the pull-push sets got a positive reaction and they did follow the new 'design clever' philosophy.

 

I felt that Andy's questions on supply chain and technology largely went unanswered.

 

Commercial considerations and relationships come into that equation and as with any customer who's had a difficult time with supply but still has a relationship of dependency it can be a difficult one to publicly answer. I'm positive that the production diversification referred to in interim statements will be a positive development although it will take a time to fully see those benefits.

[oOld Harry 666]

An interesting interview and it's certainly reinforced the view that SK is on our side whilst being well aware that Hornby has shareholders how want to see a return on their investment. Does anybody know if shareholders get a discount?

 

 

No we don't! Under Frank Martins last few years of poor business decisions we are not even getting a return on our investments.

 

All the while Frank Martin is in control I don't think wee will see any real improvement in the company. He has lost the plot totally. Now if the Chairman was to show Frank Martin the door and install Simon in his seat...........................................................

[reevesthecat]

Quick question for Andy, have you seen the range yet as you make a couple of references to wait and see what's announced?

Mark

[Andy Y]

Nope.

[Ozexpatriate]

I felt that Andy's questions on supply chain and technology largely went unanswered.

Commercial considerations and relationships come into that equation and as with any customer who's had a difficult time with supply but still has a relationship of dependency it can be a difficult one to publicly answer.

Andy,

 

Yes, indeed so.

 

It's a tightrope accomodating Hornby's need to get out a positive message and asking some of the harder questions that they don't really want to answer. I think you did a nice job.

[Robin Brasher]

Hornby are prepared to meet the public but the Company does not listen to what we say. The Wimborne Railway Society had a meeting with Simon Kohler a few years ago. Many members made it clear to him that we wanted a Midland Pullman set. The gist of the reply was that the Midland Pullman only ran a few years and no-one would be prepared to pay the amount it would cost to produce. Now Bachmann has produced one and they are selling like hot cakes. At the same meeting Simon could not understand why there was such a high demand for the Q1 0-6-0 because it was a boring black locomotive despite the fact that no-one had produced a Southern freight locomotive since the 1950s. Hornby has left it to Bachmann to produce the C class which is now the best seller. At the same meeting we asked Hornby to improve its semaphore signals. Simon admitted that the Hornby semaphore signals were rubbish but Hornby never produced any better ones. Now Dapol are producing the first electrically operated signals since Hornby-Dublo produced them in the 1950s.

 

Hornby will not produce small quantities of freight wagons for companies like Wessex Wagons so Dapol have filled that niche market. They would not produce a standard Southern goods brake van so Bachmann have stepped in and supplied two designs. It has been left to Bachmann and Dapol to provide limited runs of the Hampshire DMU, tha Adams 02 and the Beattie Well Tank for Kernow, the Mk1 Horse Box for Trafford Models and the USA 0-6-0T for Model Rail. Hornby's freight stock left a lot to be desired and Bachmann have now cornered the market for realistic steam era goods wagons.

 

Time and time again Hornby are missing marketing opportunities and other firms are filling the demand

[TomE]

and other firms are filling the demand

 

Something we (or rather those who model OO) should all be thankful for?!

 

Tom.

[Les Bird]

Time and time again Hornby are missing marketing opportunities and other firms are filling the demand

 

While this may be true for certain specific models, Hornby have responded positively to demands for some items. There have been many requests for non-corridor stock to run behind smaller locomotives and Hornby have provided not one but two ranges of LNER stock plus the Southern push-pull units. Individual modellers will always bemoan the fact that Hornby hasn't made their favourite item and that somebody else has,.but why complain if the item is from another manufacturer, as long as it's available?

 

I can quite see why Simon Kohler shied away from the Blue Pullman; as he said it was limited in its sphere of operation. As it happens, it has sold well but it might not have done although I suspect that a lot of those sold have only been purchased because of all the hype generated by the rarity of the original Triang model.

 

It is hardly fair to criticise Hornby (or any other manufacturer) because they've declined to produce wagon A or locomotive B. They cannot be expected to please all of the people all of the time.

[Legend]

 

 

It is hardly fair to criticise Hornby (or any other manufacturer) because they've declined to produce wagon A or locomotive B. They cannot be expected to please all of the people all of the time.

 

I think that is indeed true. However I think Robin Brasher makes some pertinent points. There can be little doubt that Hornby have lost their market leadership and in most cases are behind the curve.How many years now, have Bachmann picked up manufacturer of the year?

 

Bachmann are making some fantastic models at generally a lower price. Maybe "design clever" has been employed at Barwell for some time. In addition Bachmann have gone into areas where Hornby haven't wanted to go. Third rail electrics, the 4Cep lead the way. Hornby followed with the poorly designed,but higher priced 4Vep. For multiple units look no further than Bachmann. 1960s and modern freight stock......Bachmann. Bachmann successfully tied up with NRM . You can see that quite soon it's Bachmann that leads the way.

 

Then look at Dapol, as Robert says , have come in with a semaphore signal system ,where Hornby once had the market. Who interacts with the hobby community most.......it's got to be Dapol Dave. And you can contrast this interview with the one with Dapol Dave in BRM. Which one was more informative? I know Simon can't give too much information as he works for a plc and there are restrictions on what he can say, but as ha been pointed out, he could have a great career as a politician.

[D400]

Very interesting interview. I like many haven't been excited by Hornby's products recently, indeed its been over a year since I bought a new item from their range, and even then I wasn't very happy with the price. News of delayed models and quality control issues hardly inspire confidence...

 

However the Kohler interview here makes three very important points to my mind:

 

Hornby are aware that there are problems. Yes Simon has done a good job of making his answers sound positive, but he hasn't backed away from admitting there have been issues. Recognising this is the first very big step - the company isn't sticking its head in the sand which is good news.

 

They know they have supply issues, quote: "Our team are finding us new sources of supply, and of course we’ve learnt some valuable lessons around communicating with our consumers about anticipated arrival dates which is an annoyance for many of RMweb community. We won’t compromise on the quality of our product so finding alternatives isn’t easy BUT the team is committed to the task and you will see improvements over time." Now reading between the lines I feel this can only really mean one thing. China is a big place, and there are lots of factories which will make you pretty much whatever you want - Simon has mentioned that getting the quality required is difficult and limits choices, but it seems to me there still is a choice. Interesting to note as well the Humbrol has recently changed "source of supply", and whilst I don't think we'll see Hornby trains coming back to the UK, there are clearly issues with the current setup which Hornby are committed to solving.

 

Finally, cost. Simon has indicated to us that Hornby are aware essentially the cost of there products is becoming too high. I appreciate that cost of materials (and labour) in production has raised considerably over the past two years and that cost had to be passed onto the customer, but the current RRP of most Hornby items is eye-watering compared to just 3 or 4 years ago. The good news is Hornby recognise this - the whole "clever design" terminology relates the fact that they are trying to reduce costs (or at least stop further increases) by other means without effecting the quality of the product - and clever design might be just that, changes in the technology used in the design and manufacture of products, rather than noticeable differences to the product itself.

 

My only slight disappointment is the rather "stock" response to Andy's question regarding engagement with customers - yes Okay they've got facebook, twitter accounts now, but it seems to mean that Hornby's only "interaction" with customers will be during the marketing and selling stage, not during the development stage as we are seen with Dapol. This is a great shame, particularly as Simon goes on to say that Hornby's future direction is down to it's customers.

 

So all very interesting, but nice to know that Hornby haven't lost sight of the goal yet. Although I'm fairly sure December 17th won't see the accounment of anything which will excite my personal hobby interests, I will, as always, be interested to see in what direction Hornby are going now.

 

Bruce

[The Stationmaster]

Time and time again Hornby are missing marketing opportunities and other firms are filling the demand

 

But equally Hornby are meeting market demands and creating market opportunities - a whole series of LNER loco types; recently establishing a top quality niche for 'second string' coaching stock, albeit LNER thus far but success there might encourage them to move elsewhere, plus of course plenty of other quality coaching stock which generally has been praised on this site and in critical reviews (I think they probably offer the widest range of good quality pre-nationalisation coaching stock in the 00/4mm scale market?); moving to 'different' locos to a good fidelity & build standard such as an LNER 2-8-0 and the GWR 8 coupled tanks. And - albeit at a price - they probably put more into the 'starter' part of the market than every other British outline supplier combined and into a wider range of sales outlets than any other manufacturer.

 

What we have seen in the last fews years is almost a 'horses for courses' divide among manufacturers with them concentrating their best efforts in slightly different areas and Hornby do occupy one of those areas very firmly (and probably quite profitably).

 

But one important point for us all to note - we do not know how many of whatever any of the manufacturers make actually sell at the retail end of the market. Bachmann might well have sold out of Blue Pullmans (?) but have the retailers sold them all? Hornby have - according to SK's colleague at Wycrail recently - solfd out of the GW 8 coupled tanks, but will the retailers also sell out of them? Simple fact is we don't know what has been sold at retail level beyond a small sample of 'I have bought ..' expressed on here or among folk we know - and I doubt that manufacturers are likely to tell us (if they know) the final retail results. Mind you we might get some guidance from what they announce next.

[alfsboy]

I think people are forgetting that Bachmann is an integrated company compared to Hornby .They dont have to out source production and in a sense have the jump on Hornby all round ,Their pricing and range can reflect that integrated approach .Their products are not so universally loved either .There are a lot of issues with gear splitting on the 0n30 range that they dont seem to want to address or admit to other than churn the same crap gears to replace your broken old crap gears .Other "makers " such as Kernow charge a premium price and cut out the box shifters,therefore ensuring a good profit which only works up to point .The fact some else make great signals doesnt mean its an economic certainty good quality signals will sell well . .

Hornby make some very good products and a range of very reliable 'toy" trains in the railroad series so lets cut them some slack .Without Hornby our model railways would really be in the esaichonetee.The others ride on their backs in a sense as its Hornby that provide the jump off point for so many model train buffs ,past present and future .You can buy sensible Hornby models that dont dump all the details onto the carpet for the dog to eat Christmas day .

Martin

[Multiple identity account 2]

Thanks for posting this Andy. I'm eagerly awaiting the 17th. I still want to meet Mr Simon Kohler. It'll probably have to wait till I shift to the UK. It's been 14 years of me collecting only Hornby model. Hope the next year is good for Hornby.

[Ozexpatriate]

But equally Hornby are meeting market demands and creating market opportunities - a whole series of LNER loco types; recently establishing a top quality niche for 'second string' coaching stock, albeit LNER thus far but success there might encourage them to move elsewhere, plus of course plenty of other quality coaching stock which generally has been praised on this site and in critical reviews (I think they probably offer the widest range of good quality pre-nationalisation coaching stock in the 00/4mm scale market?); moving to 'different' locos to a good fidelity & build standard such as an LNER 2-8-0 and the GWR 8 coupled tanks.

There's no question that Hornby are the ones that offer the best selection of pre-nationalization coaching stock.

 

Bachmann Branch Lines are producing the LMS porthole stock, but Hornby's is the best overall range. They have taken a round robin approach so only a couple of liveries/coach diagrams are available new at a time.

 

The B17 saga is an unhappy tale, but appears to have a happy ending. It reminds me very much of the 4CEP saga.

[Bernard Lamb]

I did have a smile to myself when I read the new catch phrase "design clever".

It took me back to 1976 when I went to work for the americans and was introduced to the term "design for manufacture".

Generally I found the interview to be positive.

I do consider the lack of alternative close couplers on the Thompson subs to be a retrograde step.

Anyone care to give an explanation as to why these coaches sell like hot cakes and yet there are a heck of a lot of L1s on ebay?

Bernard

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

The B17 saga is an unhappy tale, but appears to have a happy ending.

A very happy ending, I believe, as the models look absolutely fantastic. Hoping to be able to run mine at the weekend, and if it runs as good as it looks...

 

I firmly believe (at this point) that there will be lots to arouse my interest and frighten my wallet come December 17th, and probably it'll only be people with quite specialised areas of interest that are able to genuinely say that Hornby's 2013 programme has nothing for them.

[Southernman46]

I've written the whole interview out backwards and it doesn't reveal the 2013 new item list - gives a great recipe for Chilli-con-carne though

[Gwiwer]

Fascinating reading Andy and for that much thank you.

 

I'm wondering if this was the same SK who I chatted to about then-forthcoming models including specifically the Vep as we both handled the test shots and whose attitude to anything vaguely resembling constructive criticism was a silent shrug of his shoulders. He certainly looks the same. The attitude was rather different between my time with him and yours.

 

Clearly anyone in a position as senior as SK has to toe a company line if they plan on keeping their job and they must also guard commercial confidences with their lives. Some of the responses reflected that which is perfectly understandable.

 

For me it's rather a case of once bitten twice shy and I shall wait to see what is announced in 10 days time and compare it with both the anticipated and actual delivery dates and the quality and feedback for the finished items.

 

The Vep is well discussed and widely regarded as an indifferent model. The late model Brighton Belle has some significant let-downs not least the absence of the very distinctive curtains. Some locos remain very average while others are top class. The problem has been not knowing which way the die will be cast until the goods are actually in the consumer's hands. Consistency of product quality was one issue which I felt might, but appears not to, have been addressed

[StuartM]

I believe the future for model railways lays battery powered radio controlled locomotives.

As this would enable anyone to have a wire free model railway.

I discussed this with Simon at the Kernow model railway exhibition a few years ago but he just didn't see the potential

 

See the 2012 innovation competition page for all the reliant arguments.

[switcher 1]

I believe the future for model railways lays battery powered radio controlled locomotives.

As this would enable anyone to have a wire free model railway.

I discussed this with Simon at the Kernow model railway exhibition a few years ago but he just didn't see the potential

 

See the 2012 innovation competition page for all the reliant arguments.

I think that would be great; (but obviously the controller manufacturers wouldn't).

 

No wires, No worries about track joints, no reverse feeds; plonk the track down & run your trains.

[Andy1963]

Are we 00 gauge RTR modellers not living in glorious times? Four major manufacturers knocking out virtually anything you can think of for most era's, Big 4, BR stream, early diesel, blue, modern and all to standards non of us could have dreamt of a few years ago. Hornby might be finding the economic climate difficult, but for railway modellers we are living in a boom. Long may in continue.

[StuartM]

I think that would be great; (but obviously the controller manufacturers wouldn't).

 

No wires, No worries about track joints, no reverse feeds; plonk the track down & run your trains.

Exactly,

No wiring , no track cleaning

Track work as complicated as you like

All no problem.

 

I still see a market for the controller manufacturers though; because the only difference between dcc today and battery powered radio controlled locos of the future is that the loco would receive its dcc 'instructions' via a radio link rather than through the rail, while the loco would be getting power from the on board battery .

In fact the current crop of controllers could still be used albeit with an additional radio circuit.

How many people are put off having a model railway or have to compromise they one they have because of the wiring that is involved, It is so obvious that this has to be the next step for rtr loco's, especially if you want to encourage the younger generation into the hobby

[Bernard Lamb]

Are we 00 gauge RTR modellers not living in glorious times? Four major manufacturers knocking out virtually anything you can think of for most era's, Big 4, BR stream, early diesel, blue, modern and all to standards non of us could have dreamt of a few years ago. Hornby might be finding the economic climate difficult, but for railway modellers we are living in a boom. Long may in continue.

 

You could have written that almost word for word back in about 1976.

Bernard

[Multiple identity account 2]

Exactly,

No wiring , no track cleaning

Track work as complicated as you like

All no problem.

 

I still see a market for the controller manufacturers though; because the only difference between dcc today and battery powered radio controlled locos of the future is that the loco would receive its dcc 'instructions' via a radio link rather than through the rail, while the loco would be getting power from the on board battery .

In fact the current crop of controllers could still be used albeit with an additional radio circuit.

How many people are put off having a model railway or have to compromise they one they have because of the wiring that is involved, It is so obvious that this has to be the next step for rtr loco's, especially if you want to encourage the younger generation into the hobby

 

Since you say that you see a market for controllers then the same can apply for track. We can still use steel rails etc. Only difference is that we wouldn't need to keep cleaning it and what not. And obviously we may still require point motors an all that.