Guest Max Stafford Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Nope, I'm with Byron on this one. Hornby do indeed have some very nice models which are let down a little by the large gap from loco to tender on many. Yes there are work-arounds but none of them are straightforward if you wish to retain the electrical connection in say, a Hornby A3. All Byron is suggesting is that it wouldn't surely be that big a leap to install a Roco/Fleischmann type system. Some progress has been made with the adjustable settings offered by Bachmann, but these are obviously not universal yet. Whilst some people do scoff at 'unrealistic compromises' like close coupling mechanisms I think such are far more acceptable than a 'Grand Canyon' style gap between the loco and tender. Some of us also attempt to use as generous curvature as we can. We are trying our best within practical limits but there's only so much you can do. As for the 'true scalers' and their 'choice opinions', my view of such smug elitism is a matter of public record! Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted December 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2012 Yep, quite agree that they should do something about the gap , and indeed compared to moulded handrails this to me is a major vexation. It is particularly obvious on large standard Pacifics or 9fs. Years ago Hornby had sprung drawbars on their Shire model which I thought looked good. I reckon the reason that it's not introduced is cost, as someone pointed out Fleischmann is muh more expensive. Still if you were going to design clever I'd have a look at that and close couplings on coaches. I'm amazed at this design clever concept. What were they before ......designed not clever? Surely this should have been employed from day one. I suspect that the reason it is now mentioned is to justify reduction in prices of newer models compared toA3 and A4s etc and is no more than a marketing ploy. Or it may be flying a kite to see how far they can go on compromises. Whatever, I'm sure the DoG and P2 will appear to a reasonable standard. I'm still not convinced that Hornby know which sector they are aiming for. And with extension of manufacturing I hope they will pay more attention to Quality Control which for me over the last few years has devalued the name Hornby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted December 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2012 As I seem to have noticed an a layout 'which need not be named' at an exhibition when passing trains included one hauled by a blue tank engine with the number 1 on its side and bearing a remarkable resemblance to an engine which appeared in a series of books aimed at younger readers. Oi! I'll have you know that I take my Somerset & Dorset train formations very seriously indeed...! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I agree Fleischmann are expensive compared to Hornby. But it is abit like comparing a BMW to a car built in China. Roco have sound/DCC equiped loco's with close loco/tender coupling on sale for £245, which compares well with a Hornby "brit" @ £230. Both at Gaugemaster. So not really so much difference. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I'm amazed at this design clever concept. What were they before ......designed not clever? reminds me of when i used to see a sign outside a local hostelry now long gone with the legend "good honest beer". i alwasy thought what was a dishonest beer then....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I'm amazed at this design clever concept. What were they before ......designed not clever? I don't think we should get too concerned about this little phrase. Manufacturing industry is littered with all manner of clever-sounding philosophies (Lean, 6 Sigma etc) this is probably some homegrown idea of Hornby's that like all the other similar ideas amounts to not much more than common-sense. Looking at the likely output of Design Clever I wouldn't get too worked up about those handrails on the smoke deflectors either, the smoke deflectors are so thick you'd need to replace the whole lot anyway if you wanted the engine to catch the look of that prototype picture. Design Clever would be that you could easily get rid of them without doing any damage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 'Design clever' is customer expectation setting in marketing speak. What Hornby will want to do is assess where the generally acceptable compromise lies, between cost down and resulting appearance, running quality, and other aspects of the product important to their customers. By setting some expectation up front of 'a bit different' they will be able to gauge opinion to some extent by the only honest vote: where people plunk down their cash. If the Railroad version massively outsells the main range, gues how they will steer? This is good business practise: following the money. Personally, and I was able to convey this briefly to the ever amiable Mr Kohler at Warley, I would plump for the present good mix as seen on items like the Brit, L1, B1, Gresley and Thompson non-gangwayed (and hopefully O1 and B17, but don't own either yet) and let the price fall where it has to. (If I really had my preference it would be drop all that expensive painted multi part detail in the cab, but I have been given to understand in a previous conversation that this is seen as vital by a significant proportion iof the customer base.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted December 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2012 i alwasy thought what was a dishonest beer then....... W*tneys? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 ...Manufacturing industry is littered with all manner of clever-sounding philosophies ... 6 Sigma ... Get me on my hobby horse willya? That's not a 'clever sounding philosophy' this and the developments from it pushing near perfection in manufacturing high tech is an absolute essential to our present economy: including to the very product you used to post the thought. Go read Deming and Juran, and 'Toyota Manufacturing System' for some entry level insight. Not remotely related to marketing speak, which is all clever waffle... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Go read Deming and Juran, and 'Toyota Manufacturing System' for some entry level insight. Not remotely related to marketing speak, which is all clever waffle... Not a particularly good example. Toyota went design clever quite few years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Not a particularly good example. Toyota went design clever quite few years ago. Ha ha, I had forgotten that. I promise you what Toyota meant by the term will be far removed from however Hornby choose to use it. Now go and read Toyota manufacturing system. In 1962, Dr Juran addressed the Annual conference of US motor manufacturers, and warned themn bluntly that Japan, and specifically Toyota would 'eat their lunch' in the US motor market. They laughed at the time... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted December 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2012 Got to agree six sigma and lean are manufacturing philosophies rather than marketing speak. Six Sigma actually means manufacturing consistency to six standard deviations ie very few failures. What you expect in your Boeing aircraft or Rolls Royce aero engine. Don't fancy conking out mid Atlantic! Not anywhere close to "design clever"Which looks much more marketing related. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted December 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2012 Am over the moon about the P2, I shall have to get one. Suspect that Hornby might b covering off the possibility of the 2007 project (is that what it is called, the P2 rebuild, anyway) succeeding/getting off the ground. Now, I just need to justify its presence next to my Ribble Cement Clayton and my NCB pannier... Rule #1 applies............... Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted December 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2012 There is no reason why the tender coupling pin couldn't be mounted on the end of a smaller version of the close coupling unit fitted to Hornby coaches.<br /><br />The close coupler unit on the Bachmann N got an unjustified bad press. I bought two of the early ones and one was fine but the other derailed regularly. I traced the fault to there being more play on the outer tender axles than the middle one on that particular model. That caused the tender to rock on the middle axle. I test ran it with the middle axle removed and it was as good as the other one so just added more side play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 A few years ago I considered Hornby went too far in the separate detail stakes when each LNER Gresley bogie was composed of no less than 28 parts! The picture below shows only some of the bits that fell off! That is 56 parts for the bogies plus chassis parts, coach body, roof vents, corridor connections and a bucket load of door handles and grab handles. The concept of 'mass-production' was a hundred miles away! Pulling back and reducing the number of parts in each component is one thing (it is something many buyers applaud if it reduces fragility and prices), but moulding handrails onto smoke deflectors is lowering the bar to zero! If this will not apply to the more expensive locos, I am wondering why Hornby chose a (Railroad)? model with moulded handrails to illustrate the cover of its 2013 catalogue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernelectric Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 "Modern day freight train" ?????? pardon? A vintage loco with a 20 year old livery, some old wagons from 30 to 50 years ago and a pre-ww2 PO wagon. It's quite likely the hypothetical 4 year old's Dad isn't old enough to remember that sort of freight train. You're just being pedantic now aren't you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernelectric Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 As I seem to have noticed an a layout 'which need not be named' at an exhibition when passing trains included one hauled by a blue tank engine with the number 1 on its side and bearing a remarkable resemblance to an engine which appeared in a series of books aimed at younger readers. Ah...but that loco and his fellow loco friends can be enjoyed by all age groups you know Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernelectric Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 "Model Railroading is Fun" Thats F U N for FUN for those at the back in tweed jackets Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I'm not sure why at this point "Design Clever" (which reminds me of a sign one of my colleagues once put up in the office that read 'Code smart or go home') has been deemed nothing more than a marketing ploy. The press release quoted way back on page 1 suggests that Hornby will design some products in a way that can be made either with minimal hand labor and molded detail or as a more detailed and higher priced product. I'm reading that as an approach to tooling that gives them more flexibility in reconciling different desires in their market, the split between greater fidelity at any price and more robust/prices have gone too high. Six Sigma it isn't (and my cynicism there stems from seeing a parade of certified individuals pass through our department and deliver nothing of use), but I am not sure it's just marketing BS either. If their top-of-the-range stuff turns out to have molded handrails, well it won't have been very clever after all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Re. 'design clever', just have another look at the second image of the 2 BIL roof in post#1 of this topic. All you steam loco guys worry about moulded-on handrails here and there, but exactly what are the handrail knobs (shown coloured brown on the image) doing on the roof of a 2 BIL? Was this some Indian Railways style high-capacity experiment, with commuters expected to hang out of the windows whilst holding onto the conveniently placed handrails on the roofs? The irony is, that these very knobs are the part of the 'design' that Hornby thought 'clever' to have as separately applied items! Hmm. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasslands Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Here is the first picture of a pre-production DoG built using Hornby's wonderful Design Clever principles. http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/unbranded/b/unbranded-brio-wooden-railway-system-mighty-red-action-loco-brio.jpg Following on from Ron's post RE: a pre-production shot of the DoG (pg25)... Here is a picture of the pre-production P2, but unfortunately it appears to have moulded handrails . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglian Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 reminds me of when i used to see a sign outside a local hostelry now long gone with the legend "good honest beer". i alwasy thought what was a dishonest beer then....... A menu offered me a 'generous Halibut'. Back on track: So am I right in think Hornby Railroad is to be known as Triang? I do think they should have kept 'Design Clever' within the realms of internal comms and not released it into the public domain since it seems to mean different things to different people. The point of such communications should be to clarify not mystify, or perhaps I'm being unfair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I agree Fleischmann are expensive compared to Hornby. But it is abit like comparing a BMW to a car built in China. Roco have sound/DCC equiped loco's with close loco/tender coupling on sale for £245, which compares well with a Hornby "brit" @ £230. Both at Gaugemaster. So not really so much difference. Mike But how many tender locos without sound under £150 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 A menu offered me a 'generous Halibut'. Back on track: So am I right in think Hornby Railroad is to be known as Triang? I do think they should have kept 'Design Clever' within the realms of internal comms and not released it into the public domain since it seems to mean different things to different people. The point of such communications should be to clarify not mystify, or perhaps I'm being unfair. Hi Anglian, The words 'design clever' might well be a term which comes backs to haunt Hornby every time we find something that we don't like about a new model (and I am just as guilty of using these words in relation to the 2 BIL). Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted December 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 24, 2012 Following on from Ron's post RE: a pre-production shot of the DoG (pg25)... Here is a picture of the pre-production P2, but unfortunately it appears to have moulded handrails . IMG_7541LR.JPG When will manufacturers stop making silly mistakes... that model needs some serious work before it's anywhere near ready for release... for a start they haven't even got the name and number right (have they not consulted Yeadon's Register)... although at least the livery shows some promise, a much better rendition of Apple Green than some have managed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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