Hornby 2 BIL

[10800]

It seems such a shame not to be able to discuss a photo that has been put openly on the net

You can - you just link to it.

[Tigermoth]

How about "Andy Y's house - Andy Y's rules?" We are fortunate to have acknowledged authorities like robertcwp who generously allow us to inspect their photos on flickr. Be grateful.

OK i understand now, being new here didn't help, thanks.

[Tigermoth]

On 24/12/2012 at 11:33, 10800 said:

You can - you just link to it.

Will do, thanks.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Tigermoth

[Gwiwer]

Protocol already explained above however:

 

Firstly any internet forum open to all is not "non-commercial research" - this is the public domain.  Private research refers to something you might do on your own in your own home.  Copyright Law provides for limited fair dealing for such purposes but does not permit causing one person's Copyrighted work to be displayed by another without consent having first been given and - ideally and out of respect and courtesy - acknowledged.

Second this site could be considered commercial in the context that it is owned and operated by Warners and is a part of their business portfolio.

 

The matter seems to have now been covered adequately and we can return to the 2Bil

[robertcwp]

Hi Robert,

 

I hope this is your photo or we won't be seeing it here for long!  It is a very good shot of an interesting pairing though.  There were other units of this combination and it just goes to show that BIL and HAL coaches were interchangeable  I have tried a mock up of this pairing with models of my own - it does look kind of strange even though it really is authentic. 

 

Perhaps this would be a variation too far to suggest to Hornby, but just look at how many BILs/HALs make up the train- at least five units!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

The photographer was Anthony Nokes.  He died a few years ago and his original colour slides were purchased from his estate with full copyright by a dealer I know.  I then bought some of those slides from that dealer, with copyright transferring to me.  So it is an image that I own, otherwise it wouldn't be on my Flickr account.

 

Also I have enabled the 'BB code' (whatever that is) at the request of RMWeb members so that they can post images from my collection into posts on other forums that support such things in a way that links back to my Flickr site rather than copying the image and posting it.  So, anyone can go to the site (there is a link at the foot of this post), go to an image and click on 'Share' at the top.  There is then an option 'Grab the HTML/BBCode' - click and select BBCode then copy and paste the text into a post.  This is what you get:

 

2-BIL_2032_Weybridge_28-7-64 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

For further explanation, see 'Where is the HTML code and photo file link?' on this page:

 

http://www.flickr.com/help/photos/#2265887

 

Provided photos are used this way, anyone can post them to a forum that supports such code.  All they are doing is posting a sophisticated link to the image, rather than lifting the image and posting it.  Click on the photo and it will take you to my Flickr site.

[robertcwp]

A photo of the motor third brake of 2011 when new shows it to have a shoebeam that appears to be similar in shape to the Hornby model, but later photos show a different shape to be more common (like those typically seen on 4 Sub units and SR 4 EPBs).

Correction!  The photo I was looking at was of the motor third brake of unit 1897, later 2007, from the first batch of 10 which were different to the other 142 2 Bil units.  The photo is in Vol 2 of the David Brown Southern Electric history which, incidentally, includes a very good history of the Southern Railway EMUs.

 

Looking at the photos in the same book of 2116 and 2152 when new, they had the later style of shoebeam with only a short horizontal top section immediately above the shoe, which suggests the shape Hornby have used is wrong for most of the class.

Edited December 24, 2012 by robertcwp

[Tigermoth]

Just seeing the number 5341 next to the BIL at Weybridge reminds me of the time i saw it just repainted in Eastleigh works alongside Liverpool street unit 629 back at the start of the seventies.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Tigermoth

[robertcwp]

12-car sets of Bil and Hal stock were common on peak-hour outer-suburban workings from Waterloo in the mid-1960s, especially once the platforms between Surbiton and Woking had been lengthened to permit 12-car trains.  Here is another one:

 

2-BIL_2127_Wimbledon_13-6-69 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

The depth of field is not great, but the second unit is a Hal and the third looks like a Bil, followed by another Hal.  Note four out of six unis have full yellow ends but all are still green.

[Budgie]

 

12-car sets of Bil and Hal stock were common on peak-hour outer-suburban workings from Waterloo in the mid-1960s, especially once the platforms between Surbiton and Woking had been lengthened to permit 12-car trains.

And that is why I would like Hornby to make unpowered sets, or sell the 2Bil (and the 2Hal when they get around to making it) in 4-car set with just one motor bogie. If I can make a 12-car train with just two or three motor bogies, I can spend the money I saved on more Hornby products (such as another 12-car Bil/Hal train).

[Xerces Fobe2]

And that is why I would like Hornby to make unpowered sets, or sell the 2Bil (and the 2Hal when they get around to making it) in 4-car set with just one motor bogie. If I can make a 12-car train with just two or three motor bogies, I can spend the money I saved on more Hornby products (such as another 12-car Bil/Hal train).

In essence then, a longer BIL for a smaller bill!

 

XF

[SRman]

It's a double BIL for less than a double bill!

 

Sorry!

[roundhouse]

I have just got to 23rd August 1986 scanning in my old negatives so here are a few shots taken at the Cannon street open day on this date.

 

First one taken at London Bridge.

 

And this one at Cannon Street.

[phil gollin]

.

 

Can anyone tell me whether the units forming the semi-fast stopping trains calling at Mitcham Junction in the early 1960's would have been formed of 2-BILs, 2-HALs or 6-PANs ?

 

Also, can anyone say when the Southern Region got rid of "Ladies Only" compartments and their stickers ?

 

Thanks ( and Merry Christmas).

 

.

[10800]

The semi-fasts tended to be 4LAVs.

[Oldddudders]

Nothing semi-fast called at Mitcham Junction. Indeed, there were no semi-fasts on that route. You either got the Vic - Portsmouth/Bognor Regis fasts - calling at Sutton, Dorking North, Horsham etc, or the slows, calling pretty much all stations, and heading for Epsom or Epsom Downs. There were no regular booked workings of any stock on that route except COR/BUF or SUB, although CEPs were already nibbling at the COR/BUF workings, which they would assume in 1964. The other line crossing at Mitcham Junction was the Wimbledon - West Croydon service, which by that time was 2-EPBs.

[phil gollin]

.

 

Thanks

[robertcwp]

I had a look at the September 1954 Central Section EMU workings.  These show very few Bil workings east of Brighton and Keymer Junction.  Bils were much more common along the coast west of Brighton.  They had a virtual monopoly on the Three Bridges-Bognor via Horsham service.  Their London workings were often in combination with 4 Lav units though a few 8 Bil formations are also listed.  This changed later in the 1950s with the transfer of 2 Hal units from the Eastern Section and the withdrawal of the 2 Nol units.  Also, the Three Bridges-Bognor service was extended to Victoria, including a Gatwick portion which usually comprised a 'tin' Hal. Apart from the Gatwick Hals, no distinction was made in the carriage workings between Bil and Hal stock, both usually being listed as Bil.

 

In the Western Section September 1953 workings, Bils dominated the Reading line (off peak mostly 2 Bil for Reading and 2 Bil for Guildford, dividing at Ascot) and the Alton/Portsmouth stopping services.  The latter were usually 4 Bil for each, dividing at Woking.   There were a couple of scheduled Bil workings via Epsom: the 5.15 pm Waterloo-Horsley and 5.54 pm Waterloo-Dorking North (both of which ran down the fast line as far as Raynes Park) were listed as 8 Bil (8 Cor was not unknow).  As on the Central Section, 'Bil' in the carriage workings would also include 'Hal' stock.  8 Bil is the maximum I could see on the Western Section in 1953.

Edited December 26, 2012 by robertcwp

[robertcwp]

Further to robertcwp's post #256, I've had a look for 2 BIL workings East of Brighton later in their careers. 

 

From my limited perspective,  it seems certain that 2 BILs ran on  the Horsted Keynes- Seaford services (along with 2 HAL units) unitl the closure of the line in 1963. Furthermore, in the topic on my layout Newhaven Harbour, post #78 by Karabuni (my brother)  lists various units stabled at Seaford in/from 1969.  The list includes no less than 4 x 2 BILs kept at that location.  Evidence from photos show 2 BILs on workings east and west of Lewes in the late 60's and up to withdrawal after the end of the summer timetable in 1971. These pictures show both single units and workings in pairs.  Interestingly,  a photo on p 70 of 'The Southern Electric Story' by Michael Welch, shows a blue liveried 2 BIL and a green unit with full yellow ends  running into Brighton on the London Road bridge. 

 

So, the BILs did not venture too far east of Brighton regularly, but some ten miles at least.  I am still trawling through pictures to see if 2 BILs worked as far as Eastbourne in the period 1960-71.  Nothing so far except a picture in the book mentioned above of condemned units from the first batch of ten 2 BILs at Polgate in 1969.

 

Colin

After the 2 Nol units were withdrawn and the 2 Hals transferred from the Gillingham and Maidstone lines (displaced by 2 Haps) Bils and Hals would have become an everyday sight all along the coast from Ore to Brighton, as well as working to Horstead Keynes.

 

Here is one at Hastings:

 

2-BIL_2055_1004_Hastings by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

And one at Seaford:

 

2BIL_2087_m by robertcwp, on Flickr

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Colin and Robert,

    If it's of any use, there's a pic of a 4BIL formation, towards the end of their lives,  leaving eastbound at Polegate in the book "The Changing Southern Scene 1948-81"  (IA 1981 p.73). They are working a Brighton to Hastings via Eastbourne service in September 1969, with unit 2083 at the rear and nearest the camera. Below this picture is also a photo of a Class 73 hauling condemned 2BILs at Polegate, which the caption details as "these are three of the original batch of 10 units, delivered in 1935 for Eastbourne and Hastings services, and distinguished by the louvred doors and slightly recessed windows".

    Lovely models Colin, i like your work, very nicely finished. Somewhere, i've got a Blacksmith Tin Hal to build, plus one of those Branchlines 2 HAL conversion kits ( and others ! ), i really must press on with them. In the past i have tried to work out how to create a 4LAVvy from Kirk kits, but it all got a bit complicated !

 

                                                        Cheers, Brian.

[robertcwp]

Thanks for the information and pictures Robert.  I shall have to research which 4 COR  is pictured behind the 2 BIL at Seaford in the second photo.

 

Colin

The 4 Cor is 3109 in blue livery.

[Budgie]

It's dreadfully off-topic, but I intend to have a go at a 4 COR, re-cycling the electrical components from my largely redundant kit-built 2 BIL.  I have since found a photo of this particular unit at Seaford on the last day of 4 COR operations, so that might be my muse. A little less obvious than 3142. 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

This means that just after you have finished it someone will announce a RTR model!

[Oldddudders]

This means that just after you have finished it someone will announce a RTR model!

Would Colin mind hurrying a little, in that case, please?!

[Michael Delamar]

not sure if this has been posted but here it is..

 

Horsted Keynes by Ingy The Wingy, on Flickr

[Gwiwer]

If an RTR 4 COR were to appear next year it would be a great and pleasant surprise.

 

It would indeed though so far as I am aware no approach has been made to scan 3142 meaning a release during 2013/4 would be unlikely.  I'm sure the scanning fees would be welcomed as a source of restoration funds though.

[Andy Y]

Has Ingy The Wingy given specific permission for this photo to be posted here?

The Flickr account holder has enabled his sharing settings and permitted the BBcode to be made available to anyone who can use the code. This then hotlinks the image with due accreditation.