PGC Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 It would seem to be abundantly clear that the invaluable ranges tied up in this catalogue of incompetence and deceipt are never going to fulfil their potential under the current owner(s). That being the case, surely the best way forward would be for EVERYONE who has paid money and not received goods to pursue repayment, via Trading Standards or the Small Claims Court if necessary, in order to force the owner(s) to face reality and put the business back on the market? There could only be two outcomes - either someone, (who hopefully has some business acumen and a the necessary capital), would revive all or at least part of the range, or the whole lot would disappear into a black hole once and for all !! Either of these outcomes would be better than the current shambles. Regards, John Isherwood. I can't help but agree with this, something needs to be done, but I can't also help but wonder what the problem really is. I've ordered goods and received them and I know of many others who have as well, his stand at Expo EM last year was certainly well stocked and he seemed a decent enough person to deal with. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I can't help but agree with this, something needs to be done, but I can't also help but wonder what the problem really is. I've ordered goods and received them and I know of many others who have as well, his stand at Expo EM last year was certainly well stocked and he seemed a decent enough person to deal with. Phil It's not the things that work that there's a problem with - it's the things that don't where people get annoyed as they're not being sorted without a load of hassle on the customer's part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I was born, grew up in Devon. I emigrated to Somerset. One of my best mates was born and grew up in Somerset. There is a sort of dogged determination to refuse help (maybe suspicion) in many of the Somerset type mindset. It goes back a long way, for all sorts of reasons. The civil war, Judge Jeffreys, and so on still has some bearing, although that was generations ago. The fact that 'it is not the way to go about it', does not enter into it. It is difficult to lead some folk into areas that are foreign to them, they are too set in their ways, and so on. Depending on how you measure success, a successful model railway business, is little to do with model railways, it is more about business. Look at the successful ones to see that. At the moment, I guess the current owner can't see the wood for the trees, he has sort of added too much shrubbery and doesn't know how to use a chain saw. Unfortunately, an open forum is not the place to go into details, but unless something unforeseen happens, it will carry on the way it is going - conservation of linear momentum comes to mind - sort of like buying a snowball and rolling it along a hot surface, it leaves a messy trail, gets smaller until at the end there is no useful snow left. Coopercraft was dissolved in 2009, and afaik the name is not that of a current limited company, read into that whatever you like. By trading, money comes in. With the current web set-up no goods need go out. Selling existing stock at shows brings in cash, too. If enough money comes in, then new product can be made. I don't think stopping trading is an option in the current owner's situation, not just yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Brinkly Posted January 25, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 25, 2015 By trading, money comes in. With the current web set-up no goods need go out. Selling existing stock at shows brings in cash, too. If enough money comes in, then new product can be made. I don't think stopping trading is an option in the current owner's situation, not just yet. I think the owner is a nice enough chap to deal with face to face, but he clearly isn't a businessman, well certainly not by my fathers definition! You cannot take peoples money without having the product ready to dispatch unless you give a clear indication as to when you (the customer) will receive your goods. I've always liked Ultrascale's policy, you pay for it when he has made it. Granted it can come as a shock when a bill for £275.00 arrives on 23rd December, but I did know back in August 2014 at the point of ordering that a bill would be presented in December/January. Coopercraft products are really nice, but he needs to sort out what he is doing. When I mentioned this to my Dad a year or so ago, he said then that it sounded like he had a cash-flow problem. If he doesn't watch it his customer base will stop even considering his products, due to poor experiences. Nobody should have to chase up refunds though, that isn't fair. Particularly if one is mislead, because that is fraud when all is said and done. Kind regards, Nick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Ray IF lack of money is the issue (and I personally can see little alternative) then selling existing stock with a view to re-capitalising the company is the right- and only- course of action. If this bloke is working his nuts off to do just that then IN THIS ASPECT, he deserves respect and understanding. But that is a totally different matter to taking money for items that you don't have, or have any realistic expectation (intent is irrelevant) to be able to supply. The only other thing that I would "invite" people to consider is that the word "deceit" or "fraud" have very specific meanings and imply criminal intent (intent in criminal law IS a relevant word). I would suggest that this might well be a case of competence and ability (and perhaps a degree of head in sand) which is not exactly the same as the intent to criminally deceive. I just thought that's an observation that is worth noting. Ta. EDIT: Typing error Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 .....Coopercraft was dissolved in 2009, and afaik the name is not that of a current limited company, read into that whatever you like..... It's Coopercraft, Jim, but not as we know it.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted January 25, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2015 I have been after Blacksmiths kits since he took over the company, all I have so far managed to obtain and pay for is GW corridor connections the white metal castings for the coach kits have never been available and until they are I shan't parting with any coin of the realm. If they ain't available by ExpoEM, he won't be getting the sale as after that date I shan't have a sustainable income as I am taking early retirement. At the Wells show last year I overheard part of a conversation with the proprieter of kits from Somerset which was extremely heated and County Court Judgements were bandied about. I have refrained from mentioning this as I don't know wno said what, but it is definitely a case of caveat emptor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 A long-standing member has spoken to the proprietor at Southampton show alerting him to this content. He states that he's lost his login details and indicated he would like to respond. I've spoken to Paul before and sorted out access so I am doubtful about this but if he does wish to resolve his access and communicate with readers I am easy enough to find; just email me on info@rmweb.co.uk I hope he doesn't let me down if I sort it out again and I hope he doesn't let readers down by not giving an honest response and proper answers, not just some holding excuses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGC Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 It's Coopercraft, Jim, but not as we know it.... I've had to stop looking at that website, it's doing my blood pressure no good at all! :-) Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGC Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 A long-standing member has spoken to the proprietor at Southampton show alerting him to this content. He states that he's lost his login details and indicated he would like to respond. I've spoken to Paul before and sorted out access so I am doubtful about this but if he does wish to resolve his access and communicate with readers I am easy enough to find; just email me on info@rmweb.co.uk I hope he doesn't let me down if I sort it out again and I hope he doesn't let readers down by not giving an honest response and proper answers, not just some holding excuses. Can I suggest that until we hear something definite from Andy Y, we hold fire with comments. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Can I suggest that until we hear something definite from Andy Y, we hold fire with comments. Normally I would agree but he'll just think the problem has gone away unless people do advise of their experiences. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Yes, Phil, just like we did last time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 But that is a totally different matter to taking money for items that you don't have, or have any realistic expectation (intent is irrelevant) to be able to supply. Paul has know of the situation wrt his web site taking cash for well over a year. Easy enough to rectify if it was a priority to him, but obviously it is not. Better wording on the home page would do it. But, looking at the postings here, (Colin's post #259, for example, shows the business attitude that he has. I wonder if it had been an order that someone wanted to place, would he have palmed them off with the excuses he made to Colin?). Therefore, it is tending towards fraud and deception - it's a bit like driving a car, knowing the bakes are faulty. It will be interesting to see if he comes back, I mean there was nothing to have stopped him registering again on rmweb with another name, or even his own, if he was concerned about comments on here. In the meantime, by now, we should know where we stand. Best wishes, Ray ps I was always thought that sellers should only take card payments on the day of sending the goods, I've not found any legal reference to that, however, for example, http://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/distance-sales/consumer-protection-from-unfair-trading raises a number of issues that Coopercraft are most likely in breach of. edit for typos, never mind the grammar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Playing devils advocate here, but considering the number of people with an interest in coopercraft and the lines etc is it worth a consortium / partnership of interested people approaching the current owner with a view to buying the lot (machines, moulds etc) lock stock and barrell off him and utilising expertise to restore the range back to operation? I would of course expect someone with a knowledge of the mould machines etc to be involved before any purchase or whatever deal is agreed! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Online and distance selling for businesses - a government website Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 ps I was always thought that sellers should only take card payments on the day of sending the goods, It isn't a legal requirement but it may be a condition of the payment merchant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Playing devils advocate here, but considering the number of people with an interest in coopercraft and the lines etc is it worth a consortium / partnership of interested people approaching the current owner with a view to buying the lot (machines, moulds etc) lock stock and barrell off him and utilising expertise to restore the range back to operation? The problem with that is that he'll probably refuse to sell, partly out of wounded pride, and partly just to spite you. ....I would of course expect someone with a knowledge of the mould machines etc to be involved before any purchase or whatever deal is agreed! *kof*Sharman Wheels*kof* Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 If money is the issue (*IF*) then he might not be in a position to refuse to sell just out of spite or malice, Horsetan. I did wonder if it was worth suggestion the same as Modelpara, but realistically would that work? It wouldn't be a cheap thing to do and when push comes to shove I bet a lot of the "ooh that's a good idea" would melt away when it comes to parting with cash. Can I suggest that IF that is really the aim of X people then the range of moulds sound knackered anyway and it would need new moulds. For that reason you'd be just as easy starting a new company- why would you want to spend money buying the trading name "coopercraft" if there are no working machines/ moulds. If anyone is serious about it then I believe it CAN be done. A reference to the magician who works in brass (dare I mention who I mean?) has shown that some investment of time and money can produce a good result..... but quality and popularity does not guarantee a good £££ return. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigtech Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Hello everyone - have just found this thread,and now very angry.... I have a small number of items that I ordered ( and the money was taken immediately by Worldpay Card services) just over 4 months ago,it isn't a large amount and like most people, I have simply given the guy the "benefit of the doubt" on the delay to my order,and left things alone,.He doesn't respond to emails, so once a month I have been phoning.The answer is always that "the machine is awaiting new parts". Now getting seriously "p£$%&d off" - and just left a message on his answerphone asking for a full and complete refund, also mentioned Trading Standards,and about a growing perception in the model railway world that all this is a "poor show" - what chance he will respond??? Regards SIGTECH (Steve). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 A small observation/ suggestion, not related to this topic specifically. Some card companies will impose a time limit on you requesting a chargeback. IF that is your future plan, then I would not leave it TOO long. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_man Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 We have been selling Cooper Craft kits for many years and always purchased them direct until a couple of years ago when communication or specifically lack of communication became a problem. We now purchase all our Cooper Craft from Gaugemaster. It is the same price as direct, their website shows if an item is in stock/out of stock and they provide excellent service and communications. You cannot purchase Cooper Craft's full range from Gaugemaster, e.g. the old Blacksmith kits, or some of the ex-Kirk Gresleys are not available, but then you are not likely to get those direct either. They are very good kits and we could sell many more IF we could get them when we needed them! Steve Model Railway Imports Canada Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 They are very good kits and we could sell many more IF we could get them when we needed them! Steve Model Railway Imports Canada I think you and many others, Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigtech Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Thanks for that info Retro Man, - a least I can get the signalbox nameboard that I need for 'Sproston' from Gaugemaster.com. We will have to wait and see how long it takes to get a refund from Mr P. Dunn.... Regards SIGTECH (Steve) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 ps I was always thought that sellers should only take card payments on the day of sending the goods, If payments are taken online by an intermediary such as PayPal or in Coopercarft's case WorldPay, the customer is in effect asking for their money to be transferred to the seller's account. There is no effective way for the seller to defer the payments until the goods are ready to be sent out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassey Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 About 30 Blacksmith coaches have appeared on the website this morning - these are listed as etch only. I know from conversations I've had at shows that his problem is getting the castings; so he's reverted to selling the etches only. If he can put new products on the website then he can also take those off for which he has no stock to sell. I asked him about about a Blacksmith GWR 6 wheel composite that was available on his website but he did not have at the last show I saw him at. He said that he should take that off the site bbut that has not happened. I would not part with any money unless I could see what I am purchasing ie at a SHOW. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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