News from Cooper Craft/Blacksmith/Slater's/Kirk LNER/Mailcoach Kits.

[colin penfold]

Sadly the comment on the website is not backed up by the facilities provided. When you order your money is taken immediately. There is no facility to order without paying.

 

edit to say, in the time it took him to write that message, the decent thing to do would have been to switch off the ordering facility on the non available products.

[raymw]

Don't know how long this has been on the Cooper Craft website front page. ...

 

Due to some of the Cooper Craft, Mailcoach, Kirk & Slater's have been out of stock due to a problem with my machine, it will be best for you to place your order but not pay for it at that time. I can let you know when back in stock before you pay for it.

 

It or something similar has been on there more or less since the beginning. There are two plastic injection moulding machines, afaik one never worked, the other failed a year or so back. Getting repairs to this sort of kit, located in the sticks, is not cheap. He'd have to sell many hundreds of kits to pay for the labour/travel costs, never mind the replacement parts. All kit parts have to be sourced from other suppliers, unless there are bits left over from previous batch runs.

 

I don't think anyone here have said that they have been contacted to let them know that the goods are back in stock, but it appears folk have ordered and paid regardless. It has been mentioned many times in this thread that the only way of guaranteeing you get your goods is to see them and buy them at a show - anything else will be a matter of luck. I'm not sure if the problems with Slater's (or Slater's problems with him) mentioned a few month's back have been resolved, but I expect that was/is pretty draining.

 

The web site which he has bought, only allows him to alter certain items, unless he pays for changes to be made. You are expected to phone to check the items are in stock, but it will require luck to speak to him. It seems emails are not always answered. It could be made clearer on his web site.

 

The previous owner of Coopercraft had a few people working for him, afaik, presumably running the moulds, making the patterns, etc. Now you've got one inexperienced guy trying to produce the majority of Coopercraft stuff plus a number of different ranges, too, from a location where skilled? folk are not available at a price that he could afford.

 

If you have paid money, and not got the goods, insist on a refund. I'm not sure about trading standards, but small claims court would work, if the amount is one you are concerned about. If you are concerned only about your own situation, then a posted (signed for) letter should at least get to him, but I guess it depends on if you can be bothered to get it sorted out.

 

Many years ago, when I was doing my 'heavy current electrical engineering course', one of our lecturers reported to one lad's employer that 'he should transfer to light engineering, preferably gardening'. Maybe you can work out for yourselves how this applies to this situation.

 

There is nothing I know that will improve the way the 'business' operates - it is what it is...

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

 

edit to add - Hi Colin, what's the betting you have to phone him again to remind him of the promised refund?

[colin penfold]

Hi Ray, he wont get another call from me, if I don't get the refund next week he'll get a call from MBNA bank.

[PGC]

I know nothing of the situation, other than last year I ordered some coach seating through the website and they arrived fairly promptly.

 

The proprietor was also at Expo EM and I spoke to him, mentioning there are many people on RM Web voicing discontent, and he explained that at the time the mixture of moulding machine failure and legal action against Slaters was taking more than it's fair share of toll. He also said that he'd tried to resolve the Slaters matter amicably but that hadn't worked and he was being forced to take action against them, so perhaps there are reasons behind the scene we don't know about that are precluding him from running his business as we (and quite possibly he, as well) would like.

 

Has anyone bothered to contact him to find out? If not, would someone do so and let's have some facts rather than surmising about this. I'm just concerned that if we don't have facts here, it may be possible that Coopercraft etc. may being pilloried unfairly in the same way that the new owners of Craftsman were being pilloried elsewhere, and I wouldn't like to see that happen again.

 

Phil

[colin penfold]

I know nothing of the situation, other than last year I ordered some coach seating through the website and they arrived fairly promptly.

 

The proprietor was also at Expo EM and I spoke to him, mentioning there are many people on RM Web voicing discontent, and he explained that at the time the mixture of moulding machine failure and legal action against Slaters was taking more than it's fair share of toll. He also said that he'd tried to resolve the Slaters matter amicably but that hadn't worked and he was being forced to take action against them, so perhaps there are reasons behind the scene we don't know about that are precluding him from running his business as we (and quite possibly he, as well) would like.

 

Has anyone bothered to contact him to find out? If not, would someone do so and let's have some facts rather than surmising about this. I'm just concerned that if we don't have facts here, it may be possible that Coopercraft etc. may being pilloried unfairly in the same way that the new owners of Craftsman were being pilloried elsewhere, and I wouldn't like to see that happen again.

 

Phil

Hi Phil, see post 259 where I record the outcome of a very recent telephone conversation.

[PGC]

Hi Phil, see post 259 where I record the outcome of a very recent telephone conversation.

 

Hi Colin

 

Thought you'd like to know I have just phoned Coopercraft - the owners Mother advised me her Son is at the Southampton exhibition.

 

I have asked her to pass on a message that there is a lot of controversial content on RMWeb about his business and I suggest he may want to get on the site and answer some of the criticism's. Let's see what happens.

 

Phil

[colin penfold]

Yes the Southampton show. Thats why I was "lucky" he answered the phone at 3pm on a business day and why I have to wait until next week for a refund for money taken under false pretences. Careful who you feel sorry for.

[micklner]

He should simply close the ordering page down. Borderline criminal deception/pecuniary advantage. As said above report the company to the credit card providers they should take action if enough complaints are made to close the link/withdraw facilities from the company.

 

Simply not good enough.

[PGC]

Yes the Southampton show. Thats why I was "lucky" he answered the phone at 3pm on a business day and why I have to wait until next week for a refund for money taken under false pretences. Careful who you feel sorry for.

 

I'm not feeling sorry for anyone. It's just that I believe very firmly in fair play and I also dislike vehemently people making unfair accusations without knowing the facts.

He should simply close the ordering page down. Borderline criminal deception/pecuniary advantage. As said above report the company to the credit card providers they should take action if enough complaints are made to close the link/withdraw facilities from the company.

 

Simply not good enough.

 

Can he? Is it really that simple? If the answer's Yes, how do you know?

[Coombe Barton]

Phil

 

You may not know this, which is why many of us are ****ed off:

• The 'machine' issue has been ongoing for years.
• This and other threads have detailed (including a customer stationed in Afghanistan) long running battles
• He's been at many shows where many RMWeb people have spoken to him
• He's advertising via is own website kits that say they are available when they're patently not.
• He's taken on more ranges, which he can't supply
• Andy Y has offered advice and practical help - this has not been taken up.
• Although he set up this thread (Kits from Somerset) he hasn't been on RMweb using that login since October 2013.
• Can you understand why we're fed up?
• Not only that,, in taking on extra ranges their continuing non-availability means that they're virtually dead.
• I have spoken to model shops who say that the range is dead because they can't get stock.
• Can you see again why we're fed up.
• There's a new range of chassis components developed for use for at least one of the plastic wagon bodies - where's that going to leave the poor sod who developed it?

There are many ranges being taken on by a few manufacturers who are letting them, it appears, die. That can't be good for any of us.

 

To reiterate - this is a long time ongoing. It ain't good.

[Derekstuart]

The comments about Craftsman were factual and totally justified.

 

There are many companies in a similar situation to this one. There are surely two separate issues here:

1. What is the cause. And you are right (!) that is speculation and probably of no help to anyone whatsoever.

 

2. Taking orders that they are not fulfilling, as some have reported. I sympathise with anyone who has a business shot away from them by bad luck/ legal action etc. It has happened to me and it is not easy to claw your way back when people are criticising you. It is damned annoying that sometimes for commercial or legal reasons that you cannot explain to people what the problem is/ are and what you are doing about it. However, there is just no excuse for taking orders that you cannot fulfill- if there is going to be an abnormal delay then you need to communicate that with customers and let them make their own choice.

 

Trust me on this- when I had to suspend sales with my company, I explained to people that I was shutting up shop- maybe short term, maybe for good and that I couldn't explain what was happening until Court action was completed against a rival. Because I had BEEN RESPONSIBLE with customers, when I re-opened, I still had credibility and customers trusted me and knew that they could make payments safely and with confidence as I had been as straight with them as I could.

 

So I DO understand what this bloke is going through.

 

 

 

 

Has anyone bothered to contact him to find out? If not, would someone do so and let's have some facts rather than surmising about this. I'm just concerned that if we don't have facts here, it may be possible that Coopercraft etc. may being pilloried unfairly in the same way that the new owners of Craftsman were being pilloried elsewhere, and I wouldn't like to see that happen again.

 

Phil

[colin penfold]

Taking aside the fact that this is a cottage industry to do with model railways, which seems to cause people to see things differently, the comments I have made are based on facts known personally to me and raised directly with the person concerned. They add up to a breach of distance selling regulations or worse.

 

his manufacturing concerns are not my problem, if he wants to run a business, they are his problem. Same with his website and his payment processing systems.

 

Fact. He advertised a product as available when it is not

Fact. He took money at point of order

Fact. He did not, and was not going to, contact me to explain he could not fulfil my order in the foreseeable future

Fact. He had no intention of returning my money until I requested it.

 

Unfair accusations , no. Facts, yes.

[Derekstuart]

Sorry if this is a little o/t, but...

 

Given the amount of these cottage businesses that have stopped trading in the past few years, one has to wonder whether there is a fundamental problem with them these days. These days the demand for much of what they used to do is gone, given the much improved RTR stuff. Many of the "old school" engineers have retired or passed away.

 

The next generation of kits and parts are having to be made to a much higher standard (I know there has always been a lot of top end kits available- but also a lot of tat too). And that needs investment. The injection moulding machine in this case will have been bought at a time when such machines were expensive, but a modern version capable of modern tolerences might cost a huge amount. Can these businesses be expected to survive on plastic kits sold for £5 each (as an example)?

Perhaps (and I know this won't be popular) the prices need to go up substantially to make it viable in the quantities that are being sold. After all, RTR stuff has ballooned, but kits barely have gone up.

 

I would suggest that a well known loco detailing company, purchased a few years ago by a new owner, is as a % much more expensive than the previous generation. But the quality of his etchings is in a totally different league (I had ordered a new range roof fan for £12 (still cheap IMO) and accidentally ordered a legacy one for another model at £5. A big difference as a %). But that increased margin hopefully helps guarantee that he will keep his doors open and keep designing new product. I doubt he could do that at the old prices.

 

NB this doesn't in any way excuse or comment upon some of the complaints here. I am just talking about the future viability of the cottage businesses as a whole.

[PGC]

As someone who has been around for a longer time than I care to admit, I am fully aware of the troubles that CooperCraft seem to be having. I can remember the days when I could deal with them directly in Leytonstone.

 

I am also aware of the comments about "small cottage suppliers who seem to make products disappear etc.". I am not concerned about peoples feeling when I see them at exhibitions and ask "what's happening to your product" and I listen to the answers given. It is because I hear what they have to say as well what members of RMWeb have to say that I try to tread a middle path. I have no connection with any of these companies so I will speak as I see, and if you disagree with me, that's your prerogative.

 

If Coopercraft are, as some people seem to suggest, in breach of distance selling regulations, do something about it and stop whinging on this forum. If they're not, stop spouting about in on this forum, because otherwise you may find yourself on the wrong end of a letter from a solicitor.

 

With other companies, there is one in particular (whose name I will not mention) that has taken on several products and gone about purchasing the business in good faith while taking all sensible precautions, only to find there has been an amount of "flexibility" of the truth about the important items such as tools, artwork production methods etc. so the products can't just be re-introduced as is. Sadly, the fact is that a lot of the companies in our specialist area are very small industries that don't have set standards of an industry to work to, and sometimes this causes problems when a business is sold from one producer to another. I am concerned, in this area, that the Comet range, although taken over by a respected supplier, may have difficulties if, for example, he can't use the artwork files that Geoff and his colleagues produced as he doesn't have the right software. If that happened and the range disappeared, would you blame Andrew?

 

Phil

[96701]

 I am concerned, in this area, that the Comet range, although taken over by a respected supplier, may have difficulties if, for example, he can't use the artwork files that Geoff and his colleagues produced as he doesn't have the right software. If that happened and the range disappeared, would you blame Andrew?

 

Phil

Careful, you might be bringing innocent parties in here. Better to stick to Coopercraft's problems without bringing others into the discussion with pointless speculation.

[Derekstuart]

I agree 100% on that.

 

I find it absolutely staggering that I was so heavily criticised by pgc for stating KNOWN FACT about another supplier and trying to help people source alternative stockists, so much so that he felt compelled to report my comments to the Yorkminator.

 

And now HE is mentioning companies that have NO connection to this discussion and who may find their professional standing damaged as a result.

 

Careful, you might be bringing innocent parties in here. Better to stick to Coopercraft's problems without bringing others into the discussion with pointless speculation.

 

 

 

As we all know there ARE cottage suppliers who are proving very popular and are not only maintaining old lines, but bringing out new ones (I hope their commercial £££ matches their popularity) so they CAN be made to work, but it has to start with being straight forward with your customer.

[colin penfold]

Its not a question of whinging, this thread was about whether or not coopercraft products were reliably available. Some people, myself included have been willing to share their experience.

[Oldddudders]

I'm not sure why some wish to defend the apparently indefensible. Taking  money with no prospect of delivering the product is incompetent at best, fraud in most eyes. Let's try to stay slightly in touch with the shallow depth of most modellers' pockets. Few on here come across as having much money to burn.

[57xx]

Referring to Colin's post #259, the "machine is broken" excuse has run it's course. If you are in business to manufacture things, then keeping the machinery working/getting it fixed would seem to be of paramount importance. I fear that most of the products that Paul has taken into the Coopercraft range, such as the Slaters wagons, will be lost for good. 

 

Totally agree that that excuse has worn out. It's coming up to three years now that I was at Railex and he told me the reason he had no more AEC tanker kits was that his "machine is broken"

 

 

Can he? Is it really that simple? If the answer's Yes, how do you know?

 

Someone has been adding products to the site over the last few years, his ecom platform should also be able to have products removed. If he hasn't got the skills to do it, then he's had plenty of time to call on help from someone who has. Maybe even Sinclaire Knight who designed and host his site. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I would hate to lose the Cooper Craft and Slaters 4mm range as much as the next man, I have built many and still have to plenty to get through, but he is not doing himself any favours with regards to the issues people have highlighted in this and other threads.

[Craigw]

A well known kit supplier is in the process of retiring.

 

I enquired about obtaining a few 4mm scale tenders which were still available.

 

I received an email reply that he was waiting on castings for the kits and he would notify me when they were ready.

 

Yesterday I received an email that they were ready and my payment was made.

 

What has this got to do with Coopercraft?

 

Everything and nothing, but I know who I would rather deal with.

 

Craig W

[Guest maxthemapman]

Presumably, a lot of people on this forum are involved in model railway exhibitions.

 

He seems to spend too much time swanning around exhibitions, and not enough time addressing the fundamental problems of his business.

 

Well, maybe it is time to start turning this guy away.

 

If you are an exhibition organiser, turn him away, don't accept his stand application. Once he gets some time to himself, he might begin to reflect on the ethics of his activities.

 

And just in case you are wondering, I run a successful internet business. Plenty of turnover, and not one single chargeback. So don't tell me it can't be done. 

[Boco_D1]

The reason I watch this thread is in hope that one day i'll read the post 'his machine is fixed!', but all I ever see is the comments of yet another dissapointed customer. I think it's somewhat unfair to say people are whinging when there money has been taken and they have nothing to show for it, you wouldn't accept it if you ordered your online grocieries and they never turned up beacuse the van is broken so why should this be any different?

 

There are pleanty of kits I would purchase if I could have faith in it all being delivered and i'm sure there are many others like me who would too. But how can you have faith in a company that takes your money and doesn't deliver? The broken machine excuse has become a bit long in the tooth for me. I can undestand it's gonna cost money to fix, but as they say you've got to spend money to make money.

[raymw]

I would suggest the web site is completely ignored, it is full of misleading information. Even the illustrations of equipment on page  http://cooper-craft.co.uk/Pages/2/About-Us.html are not of the current location, most likely were at Tony Brown's. If you have paid for goods, and not received them, I would suggest you get  your money back asap, that may need persistence. The only sure way of getting what you pay for, is to pay and pick up at a show.

 

It is a shame, but I can't see any improvement in the last year or so, and I can't imagine how it will get any better. The range is too big, the overheads too high, the business knowledge /technical ability/income too low.

[Derekstuart]

And yet if the proprietor of a company in this situation (and there are quite a few) just made a statement to the effect that they are not currently trading, but hope to again later, they would probably receive a lot of moral support.

 

Certainly if they are looking for an investor to help them set the company up (let's face it, it LOOKS like its a money issue (speculation on my part!)- certainly with SOME of these cottage businesses) then this is NOT the way to go about it.

[cctransuk]

And yet if the proprietor of a company in this situation (and there are quite a few) just made a statement to the effect that they are not currently trading, but hope to again later, they would probably receive a lot of moral support.

 

Certainly if they are looking for an investor to help them set the company up (let's face it, it LOOKS like its a money issue (speculation on my part!)- certainly with SOME of these cottage businesses) then this is NOT the way to go about it.

 

It would seem to be abundantly clear that the invaluable ranges tied up in this catalogue of incompetence and deceipt are never going to fulfil their potential under the current owner(s).

 

That being the case, surely the best way forward would be for EVERYONE who has paid money and not received goods to pursue repayment, via Trading Standards or the Small Claims Court if necessary, in order to force the owner(s) to face reality and put the business back on the market?

 

There could only be two outcomes - either someone, (who hopefully has some business acumen and a the necessary capital), would revive all or at least part of the range, or the whole lot would disappear into a black hole once and for all !!

 

Either of these outcomes would be better than the current shambles.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.