West Coast Railway Company ECS catches fire near Salford Crescent

[Michael Delamar]

Perhaps they should have checked the Back to Back

 

who's make of replacement wheels did they use?

[ozzyo]

I'm a bit surprised that Network Rail was aloud to remove all the track behind the train before the loco was lifted. Yes photos will have been taken, but as we know some photos can go missing.

 

OzzyO.

[surfsup]

For anyone who's interested, 47500 was shunted yesterday into the MOSI compound.

[Captain Kernow]

I'm a bit surprised that Network Rail was aloud to remove all the track behind the train before the loco was lifted. Yes photos will have been taken, but as we know some photos can go missing.

 

OzzyO.

Without knowing the details, it may depend on what focus the RAIB takes with it's investigations. Sometimes, when severe service disruption is happening as a result of the accident, it's not unknown for a pragmatic decision to be taken that allows the above kind of evidence recording to take place. I doubt very much whether photos taken under the above circumstances would be so carelessly misplaced by the photographer so as to not be available for the subsequent investigation. It will all depend on the individual circumstances of the incident, but close liaison between NR, train operator and the RAIB will always be a key factor.

[newbryford]

For anyone who's interested, 47500 was shunted yesterday into the MOSI compound.

 

I had a few minutes spare this lunchtime and spied 47500 from Water St. Couldn't get a much better photo as I was looking up into the sun.

 

It's at the very end of the MOSI compound, so I don't know how visible it is from inside the museum.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[brushman47544]

It's refreshing to see that getting the line reopen so quickly to minimise the impact on rail users did get some priority. Well done indeed to all involved.

 

Time will tell, but isn't it "interesting" that 47500 was deemed fit to be moved into the MOI compound on its current wheelsets and bogies, without the need for a wheelskate.

[APOLLO]

Pictures of 47 500 at MOSI here

 

http://www.theghoststationhunters.com/Other/47-500-Fire-Damage/27741671_72k4Jk#!i=2338369354&k=9DbcNMF

 

Brit15

[RedgateModels]

Too early in the investigation to be certain, but NR have issued a Safety Bulletin about "derailments with potential track contributory factors" which includes this incident.

[Oldddudders]

Too early in the investigation to be certain, but NR have issued a Safety Bulletin about "derailments with potential track contributory factors" which includes this incident.

Interesting, not just in terms of the present incident, but perhaps an acknowledgement that even when everything is within tolerance, the combination of things  - wheel profile, track condition, speed - all being close to those tolerances can cause a derailment. I think it was Richard Bonham-Carter, sometime Southern Regional Civil Engineer and Infrastructure Director for Regional Railways, who found that to be the cause of a freight train derailment at my local station, Staplehurst in the mid-90s, and he felt it to be by no means unusual in such events. Whether this incident is such a case remains to be seen, of course.

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting, not just in terms of the present incident, but perhaps an acknowledgement that even when everything is within tolerance, the combination of things  - wheel profile, track condition, speed - all being close to those tolerances can cause a derailment. I think it was Richard Bonham-Carter, sometime Southern Regional Civil Engineer and Infrastructure Director for Regional Railways, who found that to be the cause of a freight train derailment at my local station, Staplehurst in the mid-90s, and he felt it to be by no means unusual in such events. Whether this incident is such a case remains to be seen, of course.

Even bigger problem when a couple of somethings are very slightly out of tolerance and meet at exactly the wrong place of course.  We will no doubt hear chapter and verse on this incident at sometime although I sincerely hope we don't have the usual long wait for something to emerge from RAIB and we at least get an Interim Report.

[Simon Lee]

Interesting, not just in terms of the present incident, but perhaps an acknowledgement that even when everything is within tolerance, the combination of things  - wheel profile, track condition, speed - all being close to those tolerances can cause a derailment. I think it was Richard Bonham-Carter, sometime Southern Regional Civil Engineer and Infrastructure Director for Regional Railways, who found that to be the cause of a freight train derailment at my local station, Staplehurst in the mid-90s, and he felt it to be by no means unusual in such events. Whether this incident is such a case remains to be seen, of course.

 

I remember the Staplehurst incident, I was night TCS at Dollands Moor at the time, when I contacted the driver he simply said "its a bit of a mess up here...."" it was around this time IIRC that we also had the cyclic top derailment on the Maidstone that took out the hopper house at Hothfield.

 

Regards

Simon

[Guest Belgian]

I have heard a rumour (and that may be all it is) that the fuel tank came loose and the loco derailed following that. Is that possible?

[big jim]

i think the key word there is "rumour"

[ozzyo]

I have heard a rumour (and that may be all it is) that the fuel tank came loose and the loco derailed following that. Is that possible?

 

Have a look at the photos in the link in Mess#82 and I will think that it will prove that it's just a bad rumour.

 

OzzyO.

 

Edit to change Mess# to 82.

Edited January 29, 2013 by ozzyo

[Guest Phil]

I have heard a rumour (and that was all it was) that the fuel tank came loose and the loco derailed following that. Because the fuel tank was still attached when it was rerailed that wasn't actually possible, so the rumour was obviously incorrect

 

Post edited for accuracy !!!!

[jeff mcghie]

The most recent RAIB report published had a similar instance of several (3 in that case) things all slightly outwith 'normal' but still within tolerance which, when combined resulted in derailment.

 

Accidents on the railways rarely have 1 simple cause.

 

Jeff.

[jamie92208]

I read a couple of RAIB reports about derailments of freight wagons, mainly HAA's, one of them was on the King Edward Bridge and they were both related to a combination of minor differences in the suspension adjustment and minor problems with the track.  In both cases the combination led to derailments.

 

Jamie

[roythebus]

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/130123_ordsall_lane_junction.cfm

 

Seems like heritage stock was involved in this.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Mod4
Topics merged

[Guest Phil]

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/130123_ordsall_lane_junction.cfm

 

Seems like heritage stock was involved in this.

 

 

 

Erm..... Hasn't the thread already strongly indicated that ?

Or is this post a result of a dodgy thread merge ?

[The Stationmaster]

Erm..... Hasn't the thread already strongly indicated that ?

Or is this post a result of a dodgy thread merge ?

Thread merge Phil (but - quite sensibly - it doesn't include my post suggesting that should be done).

[beast66606]

My sources indicate a back to back gauge* may have been useful - I stress this is a RUMOUR.

 

*Or more accurately a profile gauge

[APOLLO]

RAIB report on the derailment of a container wagon at low speed at Wigan NW, interesting report with perhaps some similarities.

 

http://www.raib.gov.uk/latest_news/news_archive/news_archive_2010/100818_pn_wigan_north_western.cfm

 

The investigation determined the derailment was caused by a combination of factors including:

• a defect in the design of the track;

• the track alignment;

• a twist in the wagon chassis; and

• high friction between wheel and rail due to dry conditions and newly-turned wheels.

 

Brit15

[The Stationmaster]

My sources indicate a back to back gauge* may have been useful - I stress this is a RUMOUR.

 

*Or more accurately a profile gauge

Which is of course exactly what should always be done when investigating a derailment like this - one of the first ports of call was getting the tyre profile checked (and I've even seen a back-to-back gauge being used when investigating a 12":1ft scale derailment).

[roythebus]

Erm..... Hasn't the thread already strongly indicated that ?

Or is this post a result of a dodgy thread merge ?

Dodgy thread merge, I didn't see the original but got the RAIB report today!

[newbryford]

Which is of course exactly what should always be done when investigating a derailment like this - one of the first ports of call was getting the tyre profile checked (and I've even seen a back-to-back gauge being used when investigating a 12":1ft scale derailment).

 

It would be ironic if it was a tyre profile problem as the coaching stock had just had it's tyres turned and the 47 hadn't.............

 

Cheers,

Mick