Bachmann announcements 2013/4

[gronk the shunter]

As a 1970's modeller, the Bachmann release these last two years have been far more applicable to me than those of Hornby, off the top of my head I can't think of one Hornby release I've wanted, with the exception of the blue version of the SR parcel's van, for the last couple of years. Which leads me into a couple of questions about NPCCS.

Firstly, now that Bachmann are doing a POT stowage van (that's a lot of POT that can be stowed in there, surprises me that postmen weren't a lot happier back then!) how many POt vans would be coupled to a single POS? (apologies if that's a stupid question)

Also I freely admit to knowing nothing at all about the various ex-SR vans that existed in the late 70's but remember seeing loads of them at Crewe,(from 77 to 79)  yet another stupid question coming up.... anyone know which type they probably were?  The Hornby type or the new Bachmann ones?

 

Thanks in advance for your patience!!

[47423]

 we edge ever closer to a sealed beam BR blue loco as this yrs release, 45 036, has split central headcode and from initial research ran like this into '86.

 

 

Indeed it did, withdrawn May 86 and the last peak to run with headcode boxes by some margin.

Perfect choice for this variant, only one bodyside grille to cover over too.
 

[Fat Controller]

As a 1970's modeller, the Bachmann release these last two years have been far more applicable to me than those of Hornby, off the top of my head I can't think of one Hornby release I've wanted, with the exception of the blue version of the SR parcel's van, for the last couple of years. Which leads me into a couple of questions about NPCCS.

Firstly, now that Bachmann are doing a POT stowage van (that's a lot of POT that can be stowed in there, surprises me that postmen weren't a lot happier back then!) how many POt vans would be coupled to a single POS? (apologies if that's a stupid question)

Also I freely admit to knowing nothing at all about the various ex-SR vans that existed in the late 70's but remember seeing loads of them at Crewe,(from 77 to 79)  yet another stupid question coming up.... anyone know which type they probably were?  The Hornby type or the new Bachmann ones?

 

Thanks in advance for your patience!!

The types of SR van that you'd have seen at Crewe in the late 1970s would include both the bogie and 4-wheel brakes (as modelled by Hornby) and the various CCT/PMVs that Bachmann are bringing out. Most were so filthy that you'd struggle to tell what colour they were..

Rail Express did an article on Post Office trains a while ago, detailing various typical formations.

[ozzyo]

Hello Gronk, all,

 

when I was a loader on the Whitehaven - Huddersfield TPO at Barrow it was normally made up like this Loco , BG, BG, POS, BG. IIRC One of the BGs was dropped off at Preston for the up special TPO. So you can use ordinary BGs in your TPOs. Depending on the TPO that your modelling you may also be able to use GUVs as well. 

 

OzzyO.

[Guest Phil]

My recollection for the early 80s is Mk2d on the MML. Wasn't the stock cascaded from the ECML due to the HSTs?

From my hazy memory the MML sets had "coffins" with red vestibules, but it doesn't seem to be much earlier when MML rakes were PVs in the 2nd class with a 1st class "coffin" on the end.

[Dunsignalling]

Why not just say tough luck Bachmann, buy the Parkside or Red Panda kits and do some modelling.... Why spend more money on top of the Bachmann wagon on conversion kits when there's a perfectly good kit out there? 

 

Justin

The pre-order prices for the Bachmann Pipes and Tubes seem to be higher than for the Grain (which looks a much more complex model) and a lot more than the kits.

 

I add Kadee couplings and change the wheels for the sort that come in Parkside kits anyway, so I should easily be able to make the couple of Pipes I need for about the price of one r-t-r even allowing for steel buffer heads and a few extra castings.

 

There should be at least a couple of evenings entertainment in them, too.

 

John

[jjnewitt]

It's cost effective when a kit can be sent out to China with the instruction to copy as it saves research & dev. It is easy to forget the proprietary companies are into mass-production and that it is up to individuals to make things if they want something different. 

 

It might work better for all concerned if Parkside (etc) looked at a mass-produced wagon and decided to offer a different diagram.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say with this. If they are sending the kits to china for copying then unless they've got permission from the kit manufacturer the practise is at best dubious and at worst illegal. If Bachmann are going out and doing proper R and D for these models, measuring up the prototype etc, then that's fine. Saving on R and D is not a good thing, there are plenty of botched models out there that testify to this. I also fail to see the connection between mass production and not providing variety for the market place. Just beacuse you are mass producing something doesn't mean you can't choose to do a 1/801 fish van instead of a 1/800 or indeed a 1/447 tube instead of a 1/448.

 

I don't see why Parkside should have to go into RTR (which is what you seem to be suggesting) nor do I understand how they are suposed to decide to offer a different diagram without the aid of a time machine.

 

Justin

[9403]

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say with this. If they are sending the kits to china for copying then unless they've got permission from the kit manufacturer the practise is at best dubious and at worst illegal. If Bachmann are going out and doing proper R and D for these models, measuring up the prototype etc, then that's fine. 

I do think the nice man at Parkside has had his hard work copied by Bachmann & Hornby. If you take the CCTs, PMvs, Fish Vans  and ex LMS brake vans etc. Even the shade of grey on the pre production models suggest this but what can the small guy do against the mighty? I doubt if it is illegal just unfair. 

[griffgriff]

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say with this. If they are sending the kits to china for copying then unless they've got permission from the kit manufacturer the practise is at best dubious and at worst illegal. If Bachmann are going out and doing proper R and D for these models, measuring up the prototype etc, then that's fine. Saving on R and D is not a good thing, there are plenty of botched models out there that testify to this. I also fail to see the connection between mass production and not providing variety for the market place. Just beacuse you are mass producing something doesn't mean you can't choose to do a 1/801 fish van instead of a 1/800 or indeed a 1/447 tube instead of a 1/448.

 

I don't see why Parkside should have to go into RTR (which is what you seem to be suggesting) nor do I understand how they are suposed to decide to offer a different diagram without the aid of a time machine.

 

Justin

I know exactly what you mean but have you observed the relaxed attitude the Chinese have to copyright?

 

http://toponday.com/cars-copied-by-chinese/

[Oldddudders]

I know exactly what you mean but have you observed the relaxed attitude the Chinese have to copyright?

ISTR a few years back a major US manufacturer of O gauge models was bankrupted in the US courts because it was proved that he knew that his Chinese supplier was using drawings/designs that had been prepared for, and thus at the expense of, another manufacturer. This guy lost his shirt, and had to sell-off his entire collection of model trains. It seems unlikely that the present discussion is covering a comparable situation. If it is, then a lawyer specialising in Intellectual Property would be rubbing his hands.

[Porcy Mane]

 If Bachmann are going out and doing proper R and D for these models, measuring up the prototype etc, then that's fine. Saving on R and D is not a good thing, there are plenty of botched models out there that testify to this. 

 

So thats why Bachmann put the the dubious spacing and wrong number of planks on the LNER box vans and made the SR box vans 2mm overwidth. They did it to stop being sued by Parkside and Peco...  

 

Porcy

[Guest Max Stafford]

What's wrong with using a mock-up to illustrate your intentions? 

 

Dave.

[MarkSG]

ISTR a few years back a major US manufacturer of O gauge models was bankrupted in the US courts because it was proved that he knew that his Chinese supplier was using drawings/designs that had been prepared for, and thus at the expense of, another manufacturer. This guy lost his shirt, and had to sell-off his entire collection of model trains. It seems unlikely that the present discussion is covering a comparable situation. If it is, then a lawyer specialising in Intellectual Property would be rubbing his hands.

 

This is a complex area of law, especially when multiple nations are concerned. But, to try and simplify it a bit, there is no copyright in a physical object (such as a model). The area of intellectual property which applies here is design right, which is similar in many ways to copyright but also has significant differences.

 

For an object to be covered by design right, though, the design has to be original. And a model of a real-life object is, by definition, not original. The design right, if any, is owned by the creator of the full-size object of which the model is a replica. And in the case of anything other than a very recent railway wagon, the design right will have long since expired. 

 

However, the documents used to make a model (drawings, CAD/CAM files, photographs, production datasheets, etc) will be subject to copyright. This is completely separate to the design right in the finished item itself, and it's entirely possible (probable, even) that an object not subject to design right will have been constructed using copyright data.

 

What that means, therefore, is that it perfectly legal to take an existing model and make an exact copy of it, provided that you work directly from the model itself and merely use it as the basis for creating your own working drawings and any other data you need to manufacturer it. If, though, you obtain a copy of the original documents used to create the model, and then use those to make new models, you are in breach of copyright.

 

This second method is what the US manufacturer you refer to was doing. Their supplier had unlawfully obtained the working drawings used by one of their competitors, and was using them to make models rather than putting together their own documentation. They were found out, and the manufacturer paid the price.

 

Whether or not Bachmann (or Hornby, or anyone else) really are basing their new models on Parkside kits is a matter of debate (it certainly sounds plausible, but I suspect it may not be the case in reality). But if they are, then they're not doing anything unlawful so long as all they're copying is the appearance of the finished article which results from constructing the kit. Because the kit itself is nothing more than a representation of the original, and looking to see how someone else has represented the original is perfectly valid research.

[newbryford]

What's wrong with using a mock-up to illustrate your intentions? 

 

Dave.

 

ISTR many pre-production/mock-up models being DJH or similar kits.........

 

Cheers,

Mick

[RANGERS]

My recollection for the early 80s is Mk2d on the MML. Wasn't the stock cascaded from the ECML due to the HSTs?

The MML had AC stock before the HSTs appeared in numbers on the ECML so I'd say possibly not. I'd thought that the displaced ECML stock went on to the cross country and GE line services, certainly there was 2d stock which remained there until relatively recently.

[Guest Phil]

I do think the nice man at Parkside has had his hard work copied by Bachmann & Hornby. If you take the CCTs, PMvs, Fish Vans  and ex LMS brake vans etc. Even the shade of grey on the pre production models suggest this but what can the small guy do against the mighty? I doubt if it is illegal just unfair.

Ehhh ?

So are you suggesting that Parkside (who don't produce RTR) are having the shade of paint used on their own demonstration display models copied by other companies ? What like Precision, or Humbrol ?

 

 

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick ?

[jonathan452]

Anyone know what the Midland Mainline stock would have been in the late 70s and early 80s? My recollection was that it was a mix of 2d and 2e. 2f were easily recognised from the inside by the different colour schemes and mark 3 style seats but I don't remember too many of those until after HSTs came in and they started to appear in the remaining loco hauled AC sets.

First MML air con set entered service on April 7th 1975 on the Master Cutler. Between then and 1978 Mk2f's featured on the MML. However between 1978 and 1982 (the time that the services were massively slowed down for the Bed-Pan electrification) these mysteriously dissapeared so the sets were mainly Mk2e's with some Mk2d's.

 

A typical (correctly formed) nine coach formation during this period would have been 5xMk2e TSO, Mk2d BFK, RBR, MK2e FO, MK2d FO.

 

From May 1982 when the normal (pre May 1977) schedules were restored the Mk2fs seemingly made a re-appearence in the formations, though of course the following October the first HST's were moved over from the WR.

 

Following the intoduction of the full MML HST service in May 1983 I believe many of the displaced Mk2f coaches ended up for conversion in-to the Gatwick Express sets.

 

Perhapes someone may be able to shed some light why the Mk2f's were transferred away from the MML between 1978 and 1982.

 

From my hazy memory the MML sets had "coffins" with red vestibules, but it doesn't seem to be much earlier when MML rakes were PVs in the 2nd class with a 1st class "coffin" on the end.

 

Are we not talking here about one of the remaining (post HST) loco hauled services from the mid eighties? From some of the photographs I have seen in the magazines (including a Rail Express article about the 'Leicester Gap') the '1st class 'coffin' was by then often in executive colours.

[Dunsignalling]

Whether or not Bachmann (or Hornby, or anyone else) really are basing their new models on Parkside kits is a matter of debate (it certainly sounds plausible, but I suspect it may not be the case in reality). But if they are, then they're not doing anything unlawful so long as all they're copying is the appearance of the finished article which results from constructing the kit. Because the kit itself is nothing more than a representation of the original, and looking to see how someone else has represented the original is perfectly valid research.

But it would be dead easy to avoid creating the suspicion.

 

There are plenty of wagons that haven't been done before and picking one of them would probably result in bigger sales, too.

 

The forthcoming Hornby Fish van illustrates this; anybody who just wants some B.R Fish vans probably won't bother which Diagram is represented. However, there must be many modellers out there with trains of Parkside/HD/Wrenn/Dapol Fish vans who would have bought a few Dia. 801s to add some variety but won't be interested in a new model of the Dia.800 that doesn't match those they already have.

 

If Parkside introduce a kit for the 801, put me down for half a dozen!

 

John

[Guest Max Stafford]

Deep breath and repeat after me; "It's only a mock up...It's only a mock-up..."

[newbryford]

Deep breath and repeat after me; "It's only a mock up...It's only a mock-up..."

 

 

Substitute the letter "c" for "m"..........

 

Cheers,

Mick

[9403]

Ehhh ?

So are you suggesting that Parkside (who don't produce RTR) are having the shade of paint used on their own demonstration display models copied by other companies ? What like Precision, or Humbrol ?

 

 

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick ?

 

 

The colour of the unpainted plastic; possibly unique to Parkside in the model world. Kit manufacture would require different grades to a moulding for a complete wagon. Proprietary models seem to be in a shade of plastic near to the finished item i.e. brown for a bauxite wagon etc. Unpainted prototypes may be in grey primer but?

[Howard Smith]

Watch a video of the 2013/2014 Bachmann event at Model-Railways-Live:   http://bit.ly/16DZuuR

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder if we will see anything from Bachmann for the NRM at Ally Pally this year (large Ivatt Atlantic - with oodles of other possibilities including a further Bluebell tie-in?)

[Adams442T]

I wonder if we will see anything from Bachmann for the NRM at Ally Pally this year (large Ivatt Atlantic - with oodles of other possibilities including a further Bluebell tie-in?)

Just when I thought the excuses for frothing were done and dusted for a year up comes another!! 

[the-gog]

I wonder if we will see anything from Bachmann for the NRM at Ally Pally this year (large Ivatt Atlantic - with oodles of other possibilities including a further Bluebell tie-in?)

D200?