C&M Models commission Scotrail Mark 3s

[Flood]

The 1985 Platform 5 combined has 12066, 12067 & 12121 at WB, 12069 at MA and 12126 at LL.

 

The 1984 allocation has none of these coaches at EC, nor 12061 and 12136. As they are also not present at EC in the 1987 book it would suggest that these seven coaches were drafted in to cover the repaint program.

[mjkerr]

The 1985 Platform 5 combined has 12066, 12067 & 12121 at WB, 12069 at MA and 12126 at LL.

My 1985 book and records match, all as listed at EC

[Flood]

11004 was also part of the original batch sent to Scotland but was written off at Polmont.

[mjkerr]

The 1985 Platform 5 combined has 12066, 12067 & 12121 at WB, 12069 at MA and 12126 at LL.

Found the issue, this was my complete list of all Mark 3A which had been allocated to Scotland

I have now revised the list to show those from 1985

The above 5 coaches were allocated to PC in 1990

 

12050, 12058, 12094 and 12136 were transferred away from EC in 1985 after the final sets and formations, with one spare, were compiled following the FO to CO conversions

The following year 12061 was transferred away, leaving no spares

 

Edited April 9, 2013 by mjkerr

[tractor_37260]

 

The other side of 9706 :

 

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8288/7772033030_4da6326dbb_b.jpg 

This also confirms that some of the Mark 3A FO and TSO also had the "Scotrail" text applied, which was then replaced by the blue stripe and later "ScotRail" text version

 

Not 9706, if you look closely the retaining clips for the front gangway blanking plate/door are painted differently to the photo showing the other side of 9706 (confirmed)  If you look through the Scottish Photos thread, there is a post by the photographer who took this photo confirming it's not 9706 for the reason given above. 

Edited April 9, 2013 by tractor_37260

[tiger]

Found the issue, this was my complete list of all Mark 3A which had been allocated to Scotland

I have now revised the list to show those from 1985

The above 5 coaches were allocated to PC in 1990

12050, 12058, 12094 and 12136 were transferred away from EC in 1985 after the final sets and formations, with one spare, were compiled following the FO to CO conversions

The following year 12061 was transferred away, leaving no spares

 

This has been an interesting thread to read through. I look forward to ordering at least one set of ScotRail and one set of Blue/Grey Mk 3's when orders are being taken!

 

I did not realise, until reading this thread, that there had been Mk 3a TSOs numbered higher than 12031 allocated to EC in the mid 80s (apart from 12051 which was an EC regular). Were these coaches transferred in to cover the set damaged in the Polmont accident, as well as the re-liverying programme?

 

87029 asked which coaches carried the SC prefix whilst in blue/grey livery. I found this picture on Flickr showing M12058 and 47711 which might suggest that the coaches loaned to EC during 1984-5 didn't receive the "SC" prefix of the main EC allocated batch: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tibshelf/5765104978/

 

Going back to the Polmont accident, SC11004 (FO), SC12006 (TSO) and SC9706 (Mk 2f DBSO) were all written off and cut up immediately after the accident, so none of these ever received ScotRail blue stripe livery.

 

A couple of other points, which are small print stuff really and not likely to be applicable to the C&M Models commission. Whilst in ScotRail livery these Mk 3a coaches were notable omissions from the Mk 3 refurbishment programme, retaining the original blue-green seat covers in second/standard class and orange in first. During 1989 some, but not all, of the TSO stock received refurbished IC 70 red seat covers, but not a full refurbishment as they retained blue end wall panelling, tables and carpets. I'm pretty sure they retained the original 72 seat, mainly all facing layout with tables.

 

What I can't recall is whether the first class seats in the CO were also re-trimmed in grey/pink at the same time. Does anybody know the numbers of the coaches which received this mini-refurbishment, and whether the CO coaches were also treated?

 

Finally, during the last few months of the 47/7 push pull service in 1990, the original EC allocated Mk 3a stock was transferred away to the West Coast route and swapped with previously refurbished Mk3a stock. I haven't found any pictures of these coaches but recall that at least one rake had the light blue stripe and "ScotRail" vinyls applied over the italic "INTERCITY" branding, which was faintly visible through the light grey background colour of the vinyl. Other sets appeared in full IC swallow livery. One of the vehicles which appeared briefly was 12010, complete with the unique Clouth Rubber suspension, BT 15 bogies - in full INTERCITY livery. At least one other replacement set was of IC liveried Mk2f stock instead of Mk 3a. Does anybody have the identities of the replacement stock, or (even better) any formations and liveries from during this period?

 

Hope the above is of interest and that further details are out there.

 

Cheers

 

Tom.

[Bob Reid]

12015 was interestingly one of those returned to the LM when it was first sent up in 79' for the non-standard bogies!

Might I suggest that the most sensible course of action would be to apply only the numbers of the original 34 allocated less those withdrawn up to and including Polmont (i.e. not including 11004, 12006 & 12018. These vehicles lasted the longest on the E&G service and would allow modellers access to realistic numbers for any time in the first five years - up to the re-livery. (Edit to add - the same numbers equally, would give the largest time span during the re-liveried ScotRail years also).

Tractor_37260; You're right enough that DBSO is not 9706

Edited April 9, 2013 by Bob-65b

[mjkerr]

I did not realise, until reading this thread, that there had been Mk 3a TSOs numbered higher than 12031 allocated to EC in the mid 80s (apart from 12051 which was an EC regular). Were these coaches transferred in to cover the set damaged in the Polmont accident, as well as the re-liverying programme?

 

During 1989 some, but not all, of the TSO stock received refurbished IC 70 red seat covers, but not a full refurbishment as they retained blue end wall panelling, tables and carpets. I'm pretty sure they retained the original 72 seat, mainly all facing layout with tables.

 

What I can't recall is whether the first class seats in the CO were also re-trimmed in grey/pink at the same time. Does anybody know the numbers of the coaches which received this mini-refurbishment, and whether the CO coaches were also treated?

 

Finally, during the last few months of the 47/7 push pull service in 1990, the original EC allocated Mk 3a stock was transferred away to the West Coast route and swapped with previously refurbished Mk3a stock. I haven't found any pictures of these coaches but recall that at least one rake had the light blue stripe and "ScotRail" vinyls applied over the italic "INTERCITY" branding, which was faintly visible through the light grey background colour of the vinyl. Other sets appeared in full IC swallow livery. One of the vehicles which appeared briefly was 12010, complete with the unique Clouth Rubber suspension, BT 15 bogies - in full INTERCITY livery. At least one other replacement set was of IC liveried Mk2f stock instead of Mk 3a. Does anybody have the identities of the replacement stock, or (even better) any formations and liveries from during this period?

Clearly I need to obtain a rolling stock list for 1984, as I had assumed the rolling stock list I have for 1985 was the original EC batch

It looks as if the original batch was 12004 to 12031 (6 sets plus 1 spare), and these are the specific ones to carry SC abbreviations before the coach number

Due to the Polmont accident 12050, 12051, 12058, 12061, 12094, and 12136 were presumably then hired-in, all except 12051 were then returned which in turn replaced 12010, and the later 12006)

 

I agree, the ScotRail Mark 3 TSO coaches had refurbished seat covers only fitted, as they were overdue overhaul and their interiors were very grubby

Equally, many of these seat covers were very poor fitting

The seats in First Class did not receive new seat covers (as these seats were to be removed on return to InterCity)

 

I am currently working on a list of the INTERCITY coaches that were hired-in in the final few months of Class 47 use

So far I only have :

12010, 12066, 12067, 12069, 12121, 12126 (for some reason I missed 12010 in my original formation, but it is listed)

There were eventually enough coaches for four rakes, and towards the end they got quite mixed up, some of the others :

3290, 5929, 6013, and 6103

Intially they were hired-in without any changes

The Mark 2 coaches had the red stripes painted blue, and eventually the INTERCITY logos were painted over

The Mark 3 coaches had the INTERCITY logos painted over

This process was then changed to painting the red stripe blue and applying a ScotRail vinyl (to be removed)

Some of the INTERCITY coaches when they were returned clearly showed where the vinyl or previous paint had been removed

In some cases the coaches were repainted!

Edited April 9, 2013 by mjkerr

[valeofyork]

The seats in First Class did not receive new seat covers (as these seats were to be removed on return to InterCity)

 

 

 

My understanding was that after use with Scotrail they were converted back into FOs. Is this correct? Was it done as soon as they were withdrawn from that route?

[Bob Reid]

The original 34 Mk3a vehicles allocated to the service in 1979 at Craigentinny were FO's (7) 11004-11010 & TSO's (27) 12004, 12006-12031 & 12051 only. There was a requirement for five sets for the daily E&G Diagrams (501 to 505) and one maintenance spare set (Diagram 506) which sat at Craigentinny unless pressed into use. All six sets being formed of 4 TSO's & 1 FO - needing a total of 6 FO's (with one spare) and and 24 TSO's (with three spares). These apart from the addition of Mk2f FO 3284 were the only vehicles dedicated to the E&G fleet.

 

Until after the Polmont derailment, the only change to the Mk3a vehicles used on the service between 1979 and 1984 as noted above, was the reduction by one TSO following the loss of 12018 at Cowlairs in November 1981. There was a further reduction when 2 TSO's 12025 & 12029 went up in smoke at Cadder in August 1983 though these were subsequently repaired... Even for the short period that the service was three TSO's down, no replacements Mk3s were drafted in, preferring to either short form sets where it was not possible to make use of the maintenance spare set.

 

It was only after the loss of a further two vehicles (11004 & 12006) at Polmont in 1984 that additional vehicles were got from the LMR.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Bob-65b

[mjkerr]

My understanding was that after use with Scotrail they were converted back into FOs. Is this correct? Was it done as soon as they were withdrawn from that route?

Due to the lack of spare seats only half were converted from CO to FO

11908, 11909, 11910, 11922 went straight from CO to TSO

As a result the existing First Class seat covers were not changed

[Robert Shrives]

HI order forms now circulated £84 for coaches if preordered and discount for ordering loco ,coachs and DBSO as a set - good price 

Railtec transfers now offer alternative number sets already. 

 

Robert

[Mike at C&M]

Beat me to it, Robert.

 

If anyone would like further information, including an order form, then please contact me at sales@candmmodels.co.uk , or phone on 01228 514689 during our opening hours.

 

All those who have already expressed an interest should have received an e-mail from us in the past few days.

 

Mike

C&M Models

[westie7]

"All those who have already expressed an interest should have received an e-mail from us in the past few days.

 

Mike

C&M Models"

 

 

PM on the way Mike as I didnt get an email

Rgds

Mark

[Mike at C&M]

The livery samples of the 1st/2nd Composite coach and the 2nd Class coach arrived with us today.

 

Photographs follow, and you are more than welcome to comment on anything that may be wrong with them. This is the time to correct any errors, before we authorise production.

 

 

 

 

 

[Adam1701D]

They look really, really good.

 

From the photos it's hard to find fault, though I'd check the dark grey is the correct shade. Some of the Dapol Intercity Mk3s in the past have been too light or too dark for Executive Dark Grey but these do look to be correct.

 

Just need Farish to hurry up with the DBSOs now...

[Mike at C&M]

My thanks to Dave Jones for his work on this project. The fact that no-one has mentioned anything on the forum suggests that we have got it right.

 

The best guide we have for the colour scheme is what Bachmann are already using, the 'OO' scale Class 47/7 in ScotRail colours has been out a while. Bachmann would not confirm they would use exactly the same shades on their 'N' gauge version [we received a polite refusal], so we are working on the assumption that they will.

 

The picture below has one of the coaches sitting on top of the 'OO' 47/7. What would appear to be a slightly lighter shade of dark grey on the 47/7 looks to be down to the fact that the photo was taken in bright sunshine. Under normal indoor lighting, the colours match, but the 47/7 does have a more satin sheen to its' finish.

 

Edited September 28, 2013 by 87029

[Revolution Ben]

Hi

 

The colour matches look very good, but what is the yellow in the lower toilet window pane?  Is this authentic?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[jbqfc]

Hi

 

The colour matches look very good, but what is the yellow in the lower toilet window pane?  Is this authentic?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

yes see post 11 in this thread

 

these look very good must get my order in

Edited September 28, 2013 by jbqfc

[steve1023]

Hi Mike. They look very good. Just a suggestion regarding colour matching - how about placing them alongside the farish Intercity executive 47 612 to see how they look.

 

Steve

[Mike at C&M]

what is the yellow in the lower toilet window pane?  Is this authentic?

 

Ben A.

Ben,

The yellow colour is a representation of a ScotRail symbol that appeared within these windows. We (Dave Jones and myself) compromised on getting an exact print done, and simply put in the correct background colour.

 

In model form, may I link you to this picture of 'DavidM's Glasgow Queen Street layout: 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=133024

[Revolution Ben]

Hello again,

 

The yellow panel seems a pretty good compromise, thanks for explaining it.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[westie7]

I was just discussing how quiet things have been of late, not much to get me interested!

 

These photos have just changed that.

 

Cant wait

 

Rgds

Mark

[Mike at C&M]

Hi Mike. They look very good. Just a suggestion regarding colour matching - how about placing them alongside the farish Intercity executive 47 612 to see how they look.

 

Steve

Steve,

Good suggestion, but unfortunately I don't have any left in stock.

If anyone is passing by the shop and owns one, can they bring it with them, and we can compare the colours.

 

Mike

[arran]

HI All

 

Do they need an orange cantrail adding.

 

Regards Arran