SECR Birdcage Coaches

[PrestburyJack]

No issues with the price. It's just a shame us N gaugers are getting Wellington brown instead of dark lake.

 

What is the difference, and does anyone know why?

[jjb1970]

Coach sets are normal for European HO, companies like ACME, LS and REE release sets all of the time and it is a good way to build up prototypical sets quickly. I'm not sure why the concept isn't more popular here, Hornby do a lot of train packs but they're more loco plus coaches rather than coach packs. These coaches would seem to be a perfect candidate for a set release.

[phil-b259]

Coach sets are normal for European HO, companies like ACME, LS and REE release sets all of the time and it is a good way to build up prototypical sets quickly. I'm not sure why the concept isn't more popular here, Hornby do a lot of train packs but they're more loco plus coaches rather than coach packs. These coaches would seem to be a perfect candidate for a set release.

 

Price phsycology

 

Given the Brits are forever moaning about price, selling the coaches separately  means the 'headline price looks much more reasonable. Its the same reason why people used to sell things without VAT or have a low 'buy it now' price on ebay but with high postage fees.

 

The fact that you actually need all 3 coaches to be prototypical is a secondary consideration.....

[Mr chapman]

What is the difference, and does anyone know why?

Dark lake is an older pre WW1 livery from when everything was painted with great pride. Wellington brown is a simplified livery applied during WW1 and lasted till grouping.

 

I suspect the difference is due to available motive power. In 00 you have the SECR green locomotives to suit the older livery. At the time of release in N we have a wartime grey N class to suit the brown livery. If you wanted to run a transition era train with a southern green set the brown is actually better, if not as pretty

[Dunsignalling]

Price phsycology

 

Given the Brits are forever moaning about price, selling the coaches separately  means the 'headline price looks much more reasonable. Its the same reason why people used to sell things without VAT or have a low 'buy it now' price on ebay but with high postage fees.

 

The fact that you actually need all 3 coaches to be prototypical is a secondary consideration.....

Admittedly, prices have moved onwards and upwards, but it didn't seem to slow down the disappearance of the Hornby Maunsell "Somerset & Dorset" 3-set from the shops, or discourage multiple repeats of the Pull-push set.

 

John

[bill_schmidt1]

As a side though the roxey kits build into nice models of you want the shorter stock

 

I wasn't aware Mr Roxey did the short Birdcage stock??   I'll agree that his 60ft Birdcage kits do build into nice models though having built a few myself.

 

 

[Wickham Green]

I wasn't aware Mr Roxey did the short Birdcage stock??   I'll agree that his 60ft Birdcage kits do build into nice models though having built a few myself.

 

 

Strictly speaking, Mr. Hammersley only does the one 'short' birdcage coach, one of the 50' Corridor Brake Composites. I think most of these ended up in non-corridor 'long' sets at one time or another and no doubt with some 44'/45'/46' non-gangwayed vehicles that he also offers ............. but there are / were a number of other kits available from Mallard / Blacksmith / Branchlines over the years which might be what Mr.Chapman was thinking of !!?!

[Godfrey Glyn]

I wasn't aware Mr Roxey did the short Birdcage stock??   I'll agree that his 60ft Birdcage kits do build into nice models though having built a few myself.

 

 

 

Certainly the Roxey Birdcage kits that I have tucked away, and yet to be constructed, are 60' ones.

 

Godfrey

[Mr chapman]

Strictly speaking, Mr. Hammersley only does the one 'short' birdcage coach, one of the 50' Corridor Brake Composites. I think most of these ended up in non-corridor 'long' sets at one time or another and no doubt with some 44'/45'/46' non-gangwayed vehicles that he also offers ............. but there are / were a number of other kits available from Mallard / Blacksmith / Branchlines over the years which might be what Mr.Chapman was thinking of !!?!

Yes, apologies. It was the Roxey short LSWR stock I was thinking of having not long built a 4 1/2 set.

[Anglian]

I pre-ordered my set of three SECR coaches today. Yes they are a lot of money but I can't build or finish coaches to this quality and if they were hand built and then painted for me, to a similar quality, they would be five times the price, more? I did however, have a £100 Rail's of Sheffield voucher to spend. 

[Forester]

I pre-ordered my set of three SECR coaches today. Yes they are a lot of money but I can't build or finish coaches to this quality and if they were hand built and then painted for me, to a similar quality, they would be five times the price, more? I did however, have a £100 Rail's of Sheffield voucher to spend. 

 

Bit concerned about the body colour of the SECRs. Not quite what I was expecting for Dark Lake. Lining and detail is excellent but the overall effect seems a little dull.

 

Probably just the pre-production pictures but I may take a chance and wait until I've seen one first

.

That then poses another problem. Do I also order a set of crimson ones, which I do like the colour of, in case I decide against the SECRs - leaving my secret SECR addiction as a quick goods operation around the main BR layout when no one is looking? 

 

Decisions.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Bit concerned about the body colour of the SECRs. Not quite what I was expecting for Dark Lake. Lining and detail is excellent but the overall effect seems a little dull.

 

Probably just the pre-production pictures but I may take a chance and wait until I've seen one first

.

That then poses another problem. Do I also order a set of crimson ones, which I do like the colour of, in case I decide against the SECRs - leaving my secret SECR addiction as a quick goods operation around the main BR layout when no one is looking? 

 

Decisions.

 

Buy them! I think you'll be more gutted wanting them and potentially not being able to find any, than buying them and deciding you don't like them, because at least then you can sell them on , and if they are all sold out you should have no trouble getting your money back, maybe more, depending on demand.

[Anglian]

Has anybody raised the potential colour issue with Bachmann?

[GNR Dave]

Bought a couple of Middleton Press books of the south east Kent area from The Bulleid Shop at Sheffield Park at the weekend. Lots of photos of various types of birdcages being pulled by Wainwright H's. I think hornbys H and Bachmanns birdcages being released at more or less the same time will help to drive sales for both parties.

[Forester]

Has anybody raised the potential colour issue with Bachmann?

 

No  I decided not to go for these.

 

I would have expected SECR Dark Lake to be close to the early Pullman Dark Lake worn by Pullman Car Topaz in NRM.

 

It would be hard to replicate the translucent nature of the paint but it should at least have a touch of purple in it to lift the colour from a dull brown.

[Guy Rixon]

Worsley Works do etches for the shorter coaches of the birdcage sets.

 

Concerning the lake colour, I like the colour used by the Bluebell Railway on their preserved, ex-LCDR stock: 

 

Note that is is definitely purple-brown; not a very blue purple, not a plain brown and certainly not red. The perceived colour changes with the illumination. Here's the same coach in brighter sun, looking less purple.

 

 

Note also that c. 1912 the SECR seems to have given up the purple lake and changed to a brighter crimson, which the preservationists render like this:

This crimson phase comes, IIUC, before the change to wellington brown. The lined crimson would be Mr. Wainwright's choice, shortly before he retired, and the brown (which may have been the lake base-coat without the fancy varnishing) started under Mr. Maunsell.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Guy Rixon

[Freightliner Class 66]

how much can we trust the colours used in preservation though? paint over 100 years ago would be different and shades often varied on stock painted at different times anyway.

[Guy Rixon]

how much can we trust the colours used in preservation though? paint over 100 years ago would be different and shades often varied on stock painted at different times anyway.

 

I'm not claiming that the colours on the preserved stock are definitive. I think there is now no definitive reference for these colours. Therefore, it would be really hard to call Bachmann out on an error in shade when we don't really know what is right.

 

Bachmann's colour, as I can judge it from the catalogue photos, look like the colour on the preserved, ex-LCDR coach, and I'm happy with that for the 1899-1911 period.

 

However, if one is looking for actual errors, consider this: I think that the 60ft coaches were introduced in 1912 (I'm on holiday and don't have my copy of Gould with me to check). If this is correct, and if the livery change from purple lake to crimson (see my previous post) was also in 1912, then the 60ft coaches make no sense in purple lake. They would have been crimson when new and then brown from their first repaint; then presumably brown until the green, SR livery came in. 

[asmay2002]

I'm not claiming that the colours on the preserved stock are definitive. I think there is now no definitive reference for these colours.

For a lot of companies there were contemporary coats of arms/badges/etc. put on wooden presentation panels at the time.  Some of these come up at Railwayana auctions form time to time.  I would be surprised if there isn't an SECR one out there somewhere with an orginal transfer on original paint.  (The oldest I have seen was a London & Birmingham one).

Edited August 1, 2017 by asmay2002

[billbedford]

They would have been crimson when new and then brown from their first repaint; then presumably brown until the green, SR livery came in. 

 

 

Crimson lake without full varnish looks brown, so assuming that these coaches were repaint during WW1 the brown livery would just be a simplified version of the of the crimson lake.

 

BTW The cross lake on the SECR four wheeler looks much too bright, to me. There are several references to the fact that only the Midland managed to get a bright red finish to crimson lake and the coaches of all other companies who used this livery were both darker and duller than those produced by Derby.

[Compound2632]

Crimson lake without full varnish looks brown, so assuming that these coaches were repaint during WW1 the brown livery would just be a simplified version of the of the crimson lake.

 

BTW The cross lake on the SECR four wheeler looks much too bright, to me. There are several references to the fact that only the Midland managed to get a bright red finish to crimson lake and the coaches of all other companies who used this livery were both darker and duller than those produced by Derby.

 

Yes, those red coaches look a bit vivid.

 

The lake 4-wheeler looks rather close to LNWR plum, and there of course there's the great brown ends/NPCS debate - was it a different colour or just unvarnished (or not so varnished) lake?

[IWCR]

Re  Preservation  Colours

 

During  a  restoration  of  a  vehicle  or  rebuild  from  a  grounded  body  it  is  often  the  case  original  paint  is  found.

Exterior  paint  is  always  suspect,  not  much  usually  survives  and  it  is  often  faded,  bleached  or  discoloured  in  some  other  way.

However:  On  the  inside  of  door  jambs  and  under  fittings  will  be  found  paint  samples  which  have  been  undisturbed  and  sealed  in  for  many  decades,  often  these  are  in  good  condition,  careful  removal  of  darkened  varnish  and/or  oxidation  leaves  a  good  colour  sample  allowing  an  accurate  match.

Most  preserved  vehicles  are  likely  an  accurate  colour  match  for  the  original  in  ex  works  condition. 

In  time  paint  weathers  and  varnish  darkens;  a  vehicle  after  5  or  6  years  use  will  be  a  noticable  different  shade,  also  modern  paints  may  well   age  in  a  different  manner  to  the  originals.

 

Pete

[Andy Y]

Bit concerned about the body colour of the SECRs. Not quite what I was expecting for Dark Lake. Lining and detail is excellent but the overall effect seems a little dull.

 

 

Have you seen the decoration samples in the flesh? I don't think you'd be disappointed when you do; comparing freshly varnished preserved examples with any model won't really work.

[Forester]

Have you seen the decoration samples in the flesh? I don't think you'd be disappointed when you do; comparing freshly varnished preserved examples with any model won't really work.

 

No I haven't, and in another post I explained why I felt I would need to see them before ordering.

 

Bachmann's own pictures perhaps don't do them justice -  but at the moment these are all I have to go by.

[Freightliner Class 66]

Bachmann's own pictures perhaps don't do them justice

 

too be honest they never do. i always think these models from all the different manufacturers look better in the flesh

Edited August 1, 2017 by Freightliner Class 66