Operating at exhibitions

[chaz]

I spent yesterday at Ally Pally where there were some very nice layouts to enjoy but, in some cases, my enjoyment was ruined by some poor operating. A variety of faults were on show...

 

1. Brick wall stops
2. Stalls half way through a movement due to a section being off
3. Movement taking the wrong route and hurriedly reversing
4. Train not fully coupled and quickly returning for vehicles left behind
5. Wagons propelled at dangerous speeds in a yard

Given that everybody makes mistakes, what can be done to reduce the number?

1. Layout owners - train your team so that they know what to do
2. DC Layout builders - design your control panels so that it's easy for operators to set a complete route
3. operators - remember what you do is an important part of creating the illusion
4. remember - even the smallest loco weighs several tons - it can't start and stop like a frog

I could go on at length but I think that's enough of a rant for now.....

 

Chaz

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Chaz,

 

In the same way that you will see all standards of modelling at an exhibition, you will also see all standards of operating. Just vote with your feet and spend more time savouring the better ones. Why not comment positively both at the exhibition and on sites such as this about layouts with good operating technique. 

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[HillsideDepot]

Although I enjoy operating at shows it is hard work. It takes a lot of concentration to operate correctly, and keep a good "show" going. But I hope we manage to get it right most of the time. As the only one of the team who isn't a professional railwayman I get pressure from both sides of the layout!

 

Has anyone else been e-mailed "Supplementary Operating Instructions" (laid out just like the real thing) the night before a show to ensure drivers complied with newly installed "Car Stop" signs? I have!

 

How many people stop short of the train before easing up and coupling? Having coupled how many wait for the brake test, before pulling away? When drawing up to a red signal how close do you stop to the post - today's defensive driving techniques are different to those of BR days, for example. Do you give time for the driver to change ends on a run-round? Or does the Second Man see you back from the other cab - again an era specific feature. 

 

Perhaps not as obvious to the show visitor, but I try to operate my own layout to a timetable. To do this at a small fan of sidings (Mortimore's Yard) means that the various WR Trip Working book pages people have posted on here are real gold nuggets, partly to see the types of work locos did years ago in the course of a day, but also so that I can lay out my working documents in the correct style.

 

Adrian

 

Minor edit to correct typo

[298]

Although I agree with the basic principles as presented in the first post, it is sometimes forgotten that operators are probably under more strain than before due to pressure from the exhibition organisers to reduce costs and therefore the number in the team, and factors of modern life in the UK in 2013 that may prevent the "right" people from a team attending when a layout is away at a show. But I wouldn't automatically discount bad operation after the first glance, all layouts can suffer from Gremlins at some point and things will invariably need fixing, operator fatigue can set in, and it is sometimes too much to expect to see constant operation on a layout, and assuming something must be amiss when a train hasn't moved for 10 seconds.

 

That said, some people really can't operate to save their life...

[chaz]

Chaz,

 

In the same way that you will see all standards of modelling at an exhibition, you will also see all standards of operating. Just vote with your feet and spend more time savouring the better ones. Why not comment positively both at the exhibition and on sites such as this about layouts with good operating technique. 

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

Whilst I can see the merit of being positive my point was that there were some potentially excellent layouts where I did vote with my feet because the operating was poor. Disappointing as so much time and trouble had been spent on setting the scene but let down by indifferent operation..

Amongst layouts that did set a high standard for operating were 82G, Wansbeck Rd, Asenby St Peter, and the excellent Portchullin - all of them showing how it should be done. And I did speak to operators "on the day" about their layouts and commend their efforts when I was moved to.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Although I enjoy operating at shows it is hard work. It takes a lot of concentration to operate correctly, and keep a good "show" going. But I hope we manage to get it right most of the time. As the only one of the team who isn't a professional railwayman I get pressure from both sides of the layout!

 

As anyone else been e-mailed "Supplementary Operating Instructions" (laid out just like the real thing) the night before a show to ensure drivers complied with newly installed "Car Stop" signs? I have!

 

How many people stop short of the train before easing up and coupling? Having coupled how many wait for the brake test, before pulling away? When drawing up to a red signal how close do you stop to the post - today's defensive driving techniques are different to those of BR days, for example. Do you give time for the driver to change ends on a run-round? Or does the Second Man see you back from the other cab - again an era specific feature. 

 

Perhaps not as obvious to the show visitor, but I try to operate my own layout to a timetable. To do this at a small fan of sidings (Mortimore's Yard) means that the various WR Trip Working book pages people have posted on here are real gold nuggets, partly to see the types of work locos did years ago in the course of a day, but also so that I can lay out my working documents in the correct style.

 

Adrian

[chaz]

Woops, what happened there I don't know - ironically it must have been an operator error. Adrian I agree with what you say, I just want more people to prepare for operating the layout with the same care and thoroughness as they build the layout.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Although I agree with the basic principles as presented in the first post, it is sometimes forgotten that operators are probably under more strain than before due to pressure from the exhibition organisers to reduce costs and therefore the number in the team, and factors of modern life in the UK in 2013 that may prevent the "right" people from a team attending when a layout is away at a show. But I wouldn't automatically discount bad operation after the first glance, all layouts can suffer from Gremlins at some point and things will invariably need fixing, operator fatigue can set in, and it is sometimes too much to expect to see constant operation on a layout, and assuming something must be amiss when a train hasn't moved for 10 seconds.

 

That said, some people really can't operate to save their life...

 

Just so. I wouldn't turn away after the first glitch, but when the gremlins start hunting in packs, it is time to seek something better. Having done one or two exhibitions in the past as an operator I must say that care and accuracy need not drive out all the fun. The hobby is supposed to be fun, isn't it?

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Whilst I can see the merit of being positive my point was that there were some potentially excellent layouts where I did vote with my feet because the operating was poor. Disappointing as so much time and trouble had been spent on setting the scene but let down by indifferent operation..

Amongst layouts that did set a high standard for operating were 82G, Wansbeck Rd, Asenby St Peter, and the excellent Portchullin - all of them showing how it should be done. And I did speak to operators "on the day" about their layouts and commend their efforts when I was moved to.

 

Chaz

 

....as 298 suggests, one viewing of any layout is unlikely to present a typical performance. I can quote from considerable experience that various factors outside of the control of the layout operators can also come in to play, as well as those that he mentions.

 

There will also be untrained operators occasionally filling in and doing their best to put on a show.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[newbryford]

Given that everybody makes mistakes, what can be done to reduce the number?

1. Layout owners - train your team so that they know what to do
2. DC Layout builders - design your control panels so that it's easy for operators to set a complete route
3. operators - remember what you do is an important part of creating the illusion
4. remember - even the smallest loco weighs several tons - it can't start and stop like a frog

I could go on at length but I think that's enough of a rant for now.....

 

Chaz

 

Just a quick question. Do you put the above into practice on your exhibition layout?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[DLT]

Oh Chaz, a "can of worms" if ever there was one!

Dave.

[Stubby47]

I just want more people to prepare for operating the layout with the same care and thoroughness as they build the layout.

 

Hmmmm. Taking BCB as an example, which hadn't been put together before the Donny show, and I'd certainly not even seen it, never mind practiced, whilst your wish is admirable, it's just not always practicable. I think the operating at Donny was ok, not perfect, but no-one has complained about that (as far as I've read).

 

As another example, my son operated DLT's Bridport Town after no previous training at all, and he's been invited back to operate it again at Taunton.

[Giles]

My wife stood watching Sweet Home Alabama, and after a watching a goods train pulling away - she said 'You can see that train's heavy...'

That was good hardware and good operation.

[Dieselbob]

Hi Chaz

I have to agree with you there, a great looking layout turns into a bore when the right arm doesn't know what the left arm is doing, and i saw a lot of that today at Ally Pally.

The hand of God spent a lot of time re-railing Loco's and Stock.

Bob

[DLT]

As another example, my son operated DLT's Bridport Town after no previous training at all, and he's been invited back to operate it again at Taunton.

And a very fine job he made of it too.  I seem to remember you couldnt drag him away!

 

By and large I agree with Chaz, and I've had things to say about exhibition operation myself in the past.  

 

On the subject of training operators though, it isnt always practical.  I usually have to call on operators locally to come and join in at a show, as its rarely possible for more than two of us to travel.  In addition, Bridport Town is rarely set up at home due to its size, so practising before a show isnt an option.

 

All the best,

Dave.

[station cat]

Hi Chaz

I have to agree with you there, a great looking layout turns into a bore when the right arm doesn't know what the left arm is doing, and i saw a lot of that today at Ally Pally.

The hand of God spent a lot of time re-railing Loco's and Stock.

Bob

 

You don't have to call me God, station cat is fine.

 

Would have done better with a layout and stock I was more familiar with. Speed regulation and derailments were a serious issue.

[250BOB]

I'm another to largely agree with Chaz, but particularly in the area of realistic speeds, stopping and starting.

To a degree I can accept the odd derailment, or the odd uncoupling, that can happen to any of us. But everyone can do something about the top speeds they run at, similarly accelerating and braking too, and of course DCC operated layouts can preset those properties to help inexperienced operators.

It's almost always the DC operated layouts that I find are the main offenders of poor operation in the ways I've mentioned because they rely on someone turning a knob......!!

Ally Pally Operating i thought was pretty good though.... But at some other exbns, the odd layout has been appalling, I immediately walk away as do many others.

I note at some exbns there are awards for best layout etc., is there an award for best operated or most realistically operated layout I wonder.??

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Mornin' all,

 

Whilst a member of a successful model railway club and going out on the exhibition circuit with one of their large layouts, I attempted to organise a mutual improvement class (MIC) as used by BR. The idea was to discuss operator techniques with regard to BR period practices (where possible to replicate), with the aim of generally raising operator standards through increased awareness and good practice. I equipped the club with period BR publications and extracted the parts which could be applied to a model railway.

 

The main stumbling blocks were:

 

some of those who had been at the club longer felt that they had got this far without help and wanted to carry on as before 

 

some operators felt that an exhibition was playtime and a reward for being a member of the club, so wanted to operate in a 'freestyle' manner

 

the MIC sounded like work and therefore the effort was left to a dedicated few

 

good operating demands close attention at all times. Some operators are simply not prepared to make that level of effort.

 

operators at exhibitions tend to be stock builders for most of the year. It doesn't follow that a good stock builder is necessarily a good operator.

 

Some exhibitions have several judges who mingle with the public and assess the layouts for operating standards, amongst others. The best layouts then being recognised at the end of the show. Maybe this approach is better. 

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[PaulRhB]

Having seen one of the layouts quoted as excellent having some of the problems mentioned, where they were next to us at the Epsom show, I can vouch for the fact that it happens to the best and then only briefly due to stress caused by a random gremlin. The incident was dealt with with good humour to each other and the punters in front. Another RMweb favourite suffered FY gremlins at Nottingham last year and rather than criticise poor operation we offered our tools instead, cold vans and warm halls aren't the best environment for tiny soldered joints. With my Swiss layout we always seemed to get a spot in the day where someone zoned out a bit and wrong routed into a dead section, followed by a quick reverse despite the control panel indicating with lights what was set up and the signal showing it was wrong. It's not a job and they are operating intensely for 2-3 hours non stop so just like the real world they make mistakes. Signalboxes on the full size system with fully trained staff rarely operate as intensively on manual route setting for so long without a break or support checking the route, (actually written into the rules), because mistakes do happen 

Now if we had route setting control systems that were easy and cheap to set up and use maybe there would be less errors but currently it's the domain of those with relevant technical knowledge building a logic or pc based control system.

Best option is to move on and return 20-30 minutes later and see if it was a one off or not

 

As mentioned above real operating practice also can be taken as poor operation, in the UK stopping on the reverser and instantly reversing is frowned upon yet I see it all the time on videos of the Harz NG when they do run rounds. So for my layout instant reversing is actually prototypical operation and the delay the dcc chip had built in to change over the sounds and move the reverser had to be minimised!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Perhaps the answer is a layout like Holiday Haunts, plain main line. Just get the train out of the fiddle yard and back in again at a realistic speed, no stopping, starting, shunting, etc. The paying public get what want to see, trains going past.

 

The biggest crowd seem to congregate around layouts like this or Stoke Bank, Gresley Beat, etc. where the majority of action is large locos and trains moving steadily.  Add to that locos and stock that the viewer can recognise from the RTR manufacturers catalogue and probably also own themselves (or can readily buy) and so relate to, then what better can you have for a show layout?

 

Jol

[Barry O]

I am not sure how you balance tedious boredom (round and round layouts) with brain taxing shunting and route assessment from an operator point of view. Not sure that everyone just wants to see round and round layouts but even they have minor disasters.

 

Seems that - just like the real thing - sometimes operators do something which isn't right - and long days in a hall which is either far too hot or cold (it has happened) tends to dull the brain on whatever type of layout you have.

 

If you have a big layout with lots of operational opportunities you are restrained by the number of operators available - having seen a 16' long layout with 4 operators (and 4 points) at a show recently I wonder if its worth while trying to build and operate something like Herculaneum in the future?

[roundhouse]

We have our fair share of operator errors including me on our layouts. 

 

There are a few issues why its difficult to overcome:

 

There is only a small band of us that can regularly attend shows so its not easy to say if you dont operate 99% reliably all the tiem you cant come - that would mean drastically reducing the shows we do.

 

Between us we have some vastly different types of layout from round and round to pure shunting. Each person has theire likes and dislikes. The pure round and round, many aren't that keen on due to the monotony so they try to run more than one or change stock whilst driving - that then leads to mishaps.

 

Training operators may sound easy to overcome this but it isn't. Some can naturally do it better. We have had some young operators have a go and they have worked the layouts superbly well straight off.

 

Set a too rigid regime with your operators and you then wont have any - I have seen this happen with some layouts. Ok, people are paying to come in but without operators enjoying them selves then there will be no layouts. to show.

 

The above doesn't mean you cant improve things - we always are trying to find ways to improve the operating. We are now using PC's with on screen track plan showing which way turnouts are set but you cant make someone look at the screen if they forget to look to check turnouts - you can only keep reminding them to do so..

 

The easiest layouts with the fewest operator errors are the simple end to end shunting planks but that can often mean not enough going on for many viewers.

 

On a final note, we often do get distracted by viewers asking questions and wanting a chat. Don't let this comment put you off doing so as we enjoy that. It would be great to have a big team of operators so we have someone to do this whilst othesr operate but normally we just don't have nenough to do that nor can many show organisers afford to pay for that many operators. At Ally Pally we were lucky to have enough of us as none of us required accommodation,

[leopardml2341]

I will say only three words:-

 

Bradfield Gloucester Square

 

Demanding in concentration but worth the effort both as an operator and a spectator.

 

Edited for poor spelling and bad font size selection.

[chaz]

Just a quick question. Do you put the above into practice on your exhibition layout?

 

Cheers,

Mick

As Dave said, a can of worms! This topic is getting a good airing and a number of valid points have been made. Of course I would have sympathy with last minute replacement operators, galliantly doing their best and am aware that everybody can make mistakes.

 

Mick asked - "Just a quick question. Do you put the above into practice on your exhibition layout?". Well Dock Green goes for its first "real" show at Warley in November. It went to Wimborne in October as a work in progress when it worked pretty well apart from one persistent stall (a dead wing rail on one of the points - it turned out later) - I was well aware that we were not as prepared as we should have been but the unfinished nature of the layout was clear to the exhibition organiser and the watching throng (?). But it only seems fair to answer my own points....

• Layout owners - train your team so that they know what to do - I intend at least one training day some time before Warley. Dock Green is too big to set up anywhere in my house except the kitchen so can only be put up when Sue (my wife) takes off on one of her long weekends and us mice can play! It may be tricky getting all four of us together on the same day but that would obviously be best. I think I start with the advantage that all four of us have the same goal when it comes to operating and share similar approaches. We don't have a lame duck or a stick in the mud.
• DC Layout builders - design your control panels so that it's easy for operators to set a complete route Points are set from two small panels with the switches on clear track diagrams. There are no section switches as the system is DCC. I am considering putting in LEDs that show clearly the route set through points (easy to do with DCC using crossing polarity).
• operators - remember what you do is an important part of creating the illusion We will work our way up to this approach on the training day(s) - I fully conceed that this is as big an issue for me as it is for the others.
• remember - even the smallest loco weighs several tons - it can't start and stop like a frog DCC should avoid this problem - the only likely source of brick wall stops is running into a point in the trailing direction with the blades set incorrectly - this is a massive no no as the short circuit shuts everything down! - but like any fault - if it can happen.....I pray not too often, please.

The only remaining problem is to try to get drivers to remember that when shunting, steam locos would often set off quite fast and then coast, being driven on the brake. Can be done but needs to be thought about.

 

If you go to Warley, do please watch Dock Green, and if you want to tot up the number of instances of poor operating that you see that will be fine. I have rather set myself up. I do believe in the maxim "Don't dish it out if you can't take it". However I will do my best to ensure that you won't see too many.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Perhaps the answer is a layout like Holiday Haunts, plain main line. Just get the train out of the fiddle yard and back in again at a realistic speed, no stopping, starting, shunting, etc. The paying public get what want to see, trains going past.

 

The biggest crowd seem to congregate around layouts like this or Stoke Bank, Gresley Beat, etc. where the majority of action is large locos and trains moving steadily.  Add to that locos and stock that the viewer can recognise from the RTR manufacturers catalogue and probably also own themselves (or can readily buy) and so relate to, then what better can you have for a show layout?

 

Jol

 

Crikey - Dock Green is the antithesis of this, all stopping, starting and shunting, small locos, many of them kit built.... HELP!