Bachmann Stanier mogul

[Andy Y]

I've been assured that the Stanier mogul is progressing; all the information for this project has taken a time to pull together and it's starting to get to the next stages in the process and Bachmann will provide updates principally through the Collectors Club mag in due course.

[peterfgf]

The chap on the Bachmann stand at the model railway exhibition at Butterley Midland Railway centre at the weekend (15th August) assured me that the model had progressed to the CAD stage. So maybe not too long, but not holding my breath.

Peter

[Sweeps]

The latest club magazine reports it to be in the CAD stage, long way to go yet.

[Dunsignalling]

The latest club magazine reports it to be in the CAD stage, long way to go yet.

Mid-2017 would be my guess. 

[LMS2968]

Mid-2017 would be my guess. 

That's probably about right. If all the time spent on the prayer wheel pays off, it should appear about the same time the real one emerges from Bridgnorth works.

[Black 5 Bear]

I've just cancelled my pre-order for this loco which has now risen to £131.95 with the 15% Bachmann discount already taken off.

This item is still 18 months away from release, how much will it be then?????

Seems a tad expensive given the new Hornby King can be had for a tad under £140.

Think I'll take my chance and wait for the discounts, these will inevitably happen like in the case of the LBSCR liveried E4......

[farren]

I think you may be over reacting, if you stop and think about it. £131.95 isn't so bad if we compare it to say the new Hornby crosti for £120. Which is a super model however I am willing to bet the mongal will have lamp irons doors and breaks gear and rods all for only £11.95 more! Yes I am sure it may be more in 18 months but so will be the Hornby crosti and the king for that matter.

Edited September 18, 2015 by farren

[Black 5 Bear]

I think you may be over reacting, if you stop and think about it. £131.95 isn't so bad if we compare it to say the new Hornby crosti for £120. Which is a super model however I am willing to bet the mongal will have lamp irons doors and breaks gear and rods all for only £11.95 more! Yes I am sure it may be more in 18 months but so will be the Hornby crosti and the king for that matter.

Hardly over reacting, like many others I will not pay Bachmann's inflated prices. There is very much a ceiling as to what people will pay and I think we are pretty near the top. When you now look at the E4 in all liveries, they can now be had for a reasonable £85 at local shops not the usual box shifters. If you listen to respected media economists, they predict zero inflation with zero interest rates and tumbling commodity prices worldwide or in other words god forbid another recession. I'm well aware of increased labour costs, however that isn't the whole story and doesn't provide an acceptable explanation for these increases before a model has even seen the light of day. Bachmann may well be advised to remember that these items are a luxury and not a necessity !!!! Edited September 19, 2015 by Black 5 Bear

[Jub45565]

I think what it really means is that they need to get it right to sell.  If it has obvious errors (which I am in no way saying it will...) then fewer people will 'put up with it' if the overall cost of the model and whatever is needed to correct it is high.  If it is good, then it is still cheaper than a kit for those who require this prototype.

 

I can more than justify one (but only one) for my future plans, but will see it first before committing.

[Jub45565]

. Bachmann may well be advised to remember that these items are a luxury and not a necessity !!!!

 

If it is such a luxury then why are you getting so hot under the collar about it? If we think the toys on offer are worth the money being asked, and we have the money, we pay it. If we don't we don't. I don't see why we need to whinge on about it on forums. Bachmanns price increases have been done to death elsewhere on the forum.

[Black 5 Bear]

If it is such a luxury then why are you getting so hot under the collar about it? If we think the toys on offer are worth the money being asked, and we have the money, we pay it. If we don't we don't. I don't see why we need to whinge on about it on forums. Bachmanns price increases have been done to death elsewhere on the forum.

Another "Expert" on market economies. These comments are my personal opinion, which are incidently shared by many other modellers and people in the trade. If you are prepared to pay whatever they ask then so be it. 

Edited September 19, 2015 by Black 5 Bear

[Jub45565]

Another "Expert" on market economies. These comments are my personal opionion, which are incidently shared by many other modellers and people in the trade. If you are prepared to pay whatever they ask so be it. 

 

I'm not, and didnt say I was. I'm not even an old drip yet...

 

See my other post, I'll pay what I think is reasonable if I think it is the best means of getting the toys I want.  Take a black 5.  It was lovely when the Hornby one was cheap, but as I model in P4 it 'needs' (for me) a Comet chassis and a Brassmasters detailing kit.  At some stage in the pricing I might as well go and buy the Brassmasters kit, but as they don't sell in the quantities the Hornby one does the kit is obviously more expensive (as well as using more expensive materials to start with). Horses for courses.

 

Prices are indeed rising. Bachmann need to make profits from their toy manufacturing activities.  I quite agree that 'we' will show them over time whether they are sustainable. As I say this has been covered elsewhere though so I'm personally going to run away back to my workbench now :-)

[coachmann]

These arguments lead nowhere. I have known for a very long time that Britain is home to a folk who still think someone owes them a living. When Accountants, of all people, accuse me of charging too much when they expected me to finance their hobby, then nothing I read on here surprises me!

[The Stationmaster]

Hardly overeacting, like many others I will not pay Bachmann's inflated prices. There is very much a ceiling as to what people will pay and I think we are pretty near the top. When you now look at the E4 in all liveries, they can now be had for a reasonable £85 at local shops not the usual box shifters. If you listen to respected media economists, they predict zero inflation with zero interest rates and tumbling commodity prices worldwide or in other words, god forbid another recession. I'm well aware of increased labour costs, however that isn't the whole story and doesn't provide an accepable explanation for these increases before a model has even seen the light of day. Bachmann may well be advised to remember that these items are a luxury and not a necessity !!!!

The question of course is whether or not Bachmann's prices are 'inflated' (or even 'over inflated') and the answer depends on where you start.  For a long time the deep discounters created a very false impression of prices in the UK model railway market and it led many buyers to think that the prices they charged were the 'right prices' - which of course they weren't as they depended on shifting very high volumes in order to make the business model work.  At the other end of the scale some retailers took the realistic view that Bachman''s products were underpriced in RRP terms (which they undoubtedly were in my view).

 

One day there was bound to be a fan and excrement interface and the very good times (for some) were inevitably going to end.  Alas, for some, several very good times came to an end more or less simultaneously - Kader began losing money on toy train making so shifted their pricing policy which in turn caused Bachmann's prices to increase and labour costs in China began to rise very steeply and at a continuing annual rate.  Plus changes on Hornby's part effectively ended a substantial part of the deep discounting model which meant those retailers indulging in it had to think carefully about their business model.  Net result is that not only did the RRP prices begin to rise substantially but market prices also rose as deep discounting at long last began to be knocked on the head and its distortions of price perception were taken out of the marketplace.  

 

No doubt 'knock out' bargains will still be around on stuff which fails to sell in the quantities the manufacturers have ordered but in reality that is nothing new and it might still, as in the past, work to our advantage.  But the retail price horizon has changed substantially.  Only 2 or 3 years ago many folk were predicting that £100 was the loco price barrier which would kill the market, we're now approaching the £200 level with a number of locos and they still sell (according to everything we are told).  If Bachmann (or anyone else for that matter) loses income and profit margin due to price resistance they will either produce a product which is cheaper to make or they'll pack it in and do something else - they are in business to make profits on their investment and if they don't that will make their decision for them.

 

As for us - simples - if we don't want it don't buy it; if we can't afford it don't buy it; if you really truly want it - start saving because generally we seem to have plenty of time to do so (as is exactly the case with the Stanier mogul, all you need to do is put aside £1 a week when you think about it). 

[APOLLO]

Just a point re discounters (Hattons in this case).

 

Couple of years ago I bought 2 Hornby Railroad Black 5's at just over £50 each. I also bought 2 Hornby Railroad black 9F 2-10-0,s the new model with wire handrails, loco drive and sprung buffers for around £56. The retail price for both locos back then was just under £70 quid each. A discount yes but not excessive

 

Moving on to the excellent (haven't got one but I believe it is) Hornby Railroad Crosti which is not a million miles from their previous model it seems a tad expensive to me (compared to there models of just 2 years ago). Nearly double even when discounted.

 

Prices have not just gone up - they have really SHOT up.

 

I agree with The Stationmasters post above. The (many) reasons for price increases have been discussed many times over many threads. A Stanier Mogul would be perfect for my Ince Wigan layout (some of the last ones were shedded at Springs Branch and ran on the Wigan Central GC line) - but it will be a tad expensive to justify, we will see.

 

And time for me (& my ever thinning wallet to) SHUT up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

Edited September 19, 2015 by APOLLO

[bike2steam]

Prices have not just gone up - they have really SHOT up.

 

 

Brit15

And the indications from the business community is that it's only just started - more increases to come, never mind I just added another 'Lobster Pot' to my back order with Hattons.

Edited September 19, 2015 by bike2steam

[farren]

There's is another way to bring the price down. Except less new releases which would cut costs all round but would people be happy with that.

[JSpencer]

Just a point re discounters (Hattons in this case).

 

Couple of years ago I bought 2 Hornby Railroad Black 5's at just over £50 each. I also bought 2 Hornby Railroad black 9F 2-10-0,s the new model with wire handrails, loco drive and sprung buffers for around £56. The retail price for both locos back then was just under £70 quid each. A discount yes but not excessive

 

Moving on to the excellent (haven't got one but I believe it is) Hornby Railroad Crosti which is not a million miles from their previous model it seems a tad expensive to me (compared to there models of just 2 years ago). Nearly double even when discounted.

 

Prices have not just gone up - they have really SHOT up.

 

I agree with The Stationmasters post above. The (many) reasons for price increases have been discussed many times over many threads. A Stanier Mogul would be perfect for my Ince Wigan layout (some of the last ones were shedded at Springs Branch and ran on the Wigan Central GC line) - but it will be a tad expensive to justify, we will see.

 

And time for me (& my ever thinning wallet to) SHUT up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

The Crosti 9F is about £30 more expensive than the standard 9F, (Evening Star) and Duke of Gloucester. I can only assume that Hornby felt the Costis would be less popular than both of those and therefore priced it higher based on a smaller demand and production run. It is possible that they finally sold more than expected but that we do not know.

On these assumptions, we cannot say Prices shot up comparing a Crosti 9F today with yesterday's standard railroad 9F.

 

Now if we were to compare Deltics. I brought D9017 in wonderful 2 tone green and white window surrounds several years ago, brand new from the Signal Box in Rochester for £60. Today Pinza, in weathered condition is asking for £113. Almost double but not quite. The NRM exclusives exceed that but then they are exclusives.

 

The price increases make me more choosey but have not stopped me yet when it really is a model I want.

Edited September 27, 2015 by JSpencer

[coachmann]

Bachmann 2006 price list :-

Manor 7825 .....................£68.70 (split-chassis)

V2 Green Arrow................£81.95 (Split-chassis)

GWR Hall......................... £78.50

GWR 56XX lined green.... £63.15

GWR 45XX....................... £54.55

57XX Pannier ...................£52.15

8750 Pannier .................. £64.25 (DCC on board)

LNER A1 Pacific .............£101.95

 

Remember this is 9 years ago. Also they were RRP. I dont think model railways are unique in their increases, although as with other things it is a case of supply & demand and /or cheapening technology (some cars and TV's have come down in price). All Bachmann locos today are DCC ready so consider the extra wiring. I happen to consider today's model railway prices are okay.

[PenrithBeacon]

The enormous backlog of models that have been announced but are no where close to delivery suggest to me that Bachmann are non too efficient. The sudden , and very large, increase in prices could be a reflection of inefficiency rather than profiteering .

 

Regards

[Ian Hargrave]

The enormous backlog of models that have been announced but are no where close to delivery suggest to me that Bachmann are non too efficient. The sudden , and very large, increase in prices could be a reflection of inefficiency rather than profiteering .

Regards[/quote

The reasons for the sharp increase in cost have been well documented and exhaustively discussed on this forum since July 2014.I would suggest that neither inefficiency nor profiteering are relevant,unless anyone has any new and knowledge based insights on the matter.

[Stanley Melrose]

"The reasons for the sharp increase in cost have been well documented and exhaustively discussed on this forum since July 2014.I would suggest that neither inefficiency nor profiteering are relevant,unless anyone has any new and knowledge based insights on the matter."

 

When did that ever stop the amateur econonomists?

 

If you can afford what the retailers charge, you might/will buy, otherwise, moan and don't buy.  It won't influence the manufacturers, I assure you.  They have their P&L A/Cs and balance sheets to manage as well as their production slots.

 

Stan

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

 I dont think model railways are unique in their increases, although as with other things it is a case of supply & demand and /or cheapening technology (some cars and TV's have come down in price).

 

The price of bikes and quality cycle parts seems to have gone up faster than model railways over the last few years. Partly to do with paying the Orientals in expensive US Dollars to fund the pay increases of their workers I understand. 

[Black 5 Bear]

I spoke to staff on the Bachmann stand yesterday at the Peterborough show,they stated that the Mogul is now in the tooling stage and a grey preproduction sample will be released before the Christmas period this year. Apparently they will be on general release before the Warley show next year.

[PenrithBeacon]

 

The enormous backlog of models that have been announced but are no where close to delivery suggest to me that Bachmann are non too efficient. The sudden , and very large, increase in prices could be a reflection of inefficiency rather than profiteering .

Regards[/quote

The reasons for the sharp increase in cost have been well documented and exhaustively discussed on this forum since July 2014.I would suggest that neither inefficiency nor profiteering are relevant,unless anyone has any new and knowledge based insights on the matter.

 

 

With respect, I didn't say they were profiteering, but that they were inefficient. The reason they're inefficient of course is that there isn't a functioning market in RTR. This is because of the 'pre-announcement' concept. The different manufacturers make an announcement that it is their intention to produce a model and this has the effect of scaring everybody else off. They can then stand back and wait for a response from the enthusiast community before getting to work or not on the model. Some announced models have never been produced, not at all.

 

This is exacerbated by a lack of industrial capacity in China to actually produce the goods in sufficient quantity. The factory owners (basically the Chinese State, nothing ever happens in China without the State giving its approval. This not an open and free society) find themselves in the delightful situation of demand exceeding supply; so the price goes up.

 

Prices will continue to go up unless and until the RTR manufacturers start to use and exploit different sources of supply either in Asia or elsewhere. Bachmann aren't going to do this, they are owned in China and appear to be vertically integrated with the factories. The other RTR manufacturers might though. Just might ...

 

Regards

Edited October 18, 2015 by PenrithBeacon