bike2steam Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 All Bachmanns Stanier crabs are with rivet tenders that I saw at Warley, did the real thing only ever run with rivet tenders ? Yes, although in later life some acquired flush rivet tenders, swapped mainly from Crabs, but on a few occasions, from 4F's. See the RCTS, and Irwell books on the class. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daltonparva Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 These (LMS) were on sale today at Doncaster show. (2 dealers). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rembrow Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 I was so looking forward to this release. I'm a bit put off now by some of the criticisms identified so far, especially the steam pipes and large screw on the coupling rod, but I might live with these, it's the lack of rivet detail on the tender that puts me off most from purchasing one. The picture I had seen a while back did show rivet lines on the tender of the LMS liveried example http://www.hattons.co.uk/60880/Bachmann_Branchline_31_690_Class_5P4F_Stanier_Mogul_2_6_0_2965_in_LMS_lined_black/StockDetail.aspx Without these it looks a bit flat? What do others think? At £135 I'm looking for perfection in Mogul form! Cheers, Keith Looks like the mags have received different production versions to review. I've just read the March Hornby mag review and they were given the LMS livery version and there is a near 2 page side on, at slight angle photo, which clearly shows a riveted tender on the LMS version Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Midland Mole Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 These (LMS) were on sale today at Doncaster show. (2 dealers). Well as far as I am aware we should have had some on the stand at Doncaster, but as I am not there I cant be sure. Alex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagrizz Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 At the MK show today, all three versions were on the Bachmann display stand. The LMS and late BR versions had rivetted tenders, the early BR one did not. Graham 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Bare in mind cylinder shape and boiler/top-feed/ safety valve differences, while the first 10 class members are out of bounds even in BR days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tractionman Posted February 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2017 At the MK show today, all three versions were on the Bachmann display stand. The LMS and late BR versions had rivetted tenders, the early BR one did not. Graham excellent, many thanks, that is good news re the LMS version (as far as I am concerned!). all the best, Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted February 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2017 excellent, many thanks, that is good news re the LMS version (as far as I am concerned!). all the best, Keith Confirm.LMS version at Doncaster was a rivetting experience 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted February 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) At the MK show today, all three versions were on the Bachmann display stand. The LMS and late BR versions had rivetted tenders, the early BR one did not. Graham I had to check back at past posts after reading this, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72039-Bachmann-stanier-mogul/?p=2512633 I clearly forgot to look at my own photograph ! .. aint no rivets on the tender sides in that picture ! No problem to remember a days events 30 years ago, but can't remember 3 months ago ! Ive updated my own post after reading that.., doh ! Edited February 11, 2017 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Sorry but 42969 had a flush RIVETED tender between 1955 & 1961. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tomlinson Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) Sorry but 42969 had a flush RIVETED tender between 1955 & 1961. Doesn't "flush riveted" mean that the rivet heads are ground away to give a smooth finish as seen in the pic of 42969? This was what happened with the Darlington built A1's. I don't know a lot about LMS locos, so perhaps someone can confirm please. My own "cunning plan" is to buy one of these with a smooth sided tender and swap it with the visibly riveted one on my Crab - only after buying this years ago did I realise that the great majority of Crabs had smooth sided tenders. Perhaps someone could also advise if this is a dumb idea! Thanks, John. Edited February 11, 2017 by John Tomlinson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Turpin Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) Doesn't "flush riveted" mean that the rivet heads are ground away to give a smooth finish Indeed it does. the holes are countersunk, riveted then the heads ground back flush to leave a smooth finish. However, over time with the effects of the elements and due to rust intrusion etc, the flush joins do begin to show somewhat. Just look at the bufferbeams on the rebuilt Royal Scots in later years - flush, but obvious where the rivets are. One example of something very difficult to model and rarely seen as a result. Edited February 11, 2017 by Dick Turpin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Doesn't "flush riveted" mean that the rivet heads are ground away to give a smooth finish as seen in the pic of 42969? This was what happened with the Darlington built A1's. I don't know a lot about LMS locos, so perhaps someone can confirm please. My own "cunning plan" is to buy one of these with a smooth sided tender and swap it with the visibly riveted one on my Crab - only after buying this years ago did I realise that the great majority of Crabs had smooth sided tenders. Perhaps someone could also advise if this is a dumb idea! Thanks, John. Yeah a feasible idea indeed, and about half the Stanier moguls ran with flush riveted tenders at one time or another, most originally from Crabs. 42969 regained a full riveted tender ( originally off (4)2959) in April 1961. Horwich coupled up the tenders that were available at the time the loco came out of works. For the perfectionists check your details. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted February 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) Yeah a feasible idea indeed, and about half the Stanier moguls ran with flush riveted tenders at one time or another, most originally from Crabs. 42969 regained a full riveted tender ( originally off (4)2959) in April 1961. Horwich coupled up the tenders that were available at the time the loco came out of works. For the perfectionists check your details.By any chance, do you know if it was early or late crest ?Suitable swaps are (Bachmann releases). 42789 or 42919 have late crest riveted tender 40934 has early emblem riveted tender Given this loco is £135+ and the above two are quite cheap to buy I'd buy the above to swap the tender and /or dispose of the front portion, rather than start rubbing down the decals on the Stanier. With 42789 it'd be a tender body swap, as the tender chassis does not have a DCC plug/fitting. Edited February 11, 2017 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 By any chance, do you know if it was early or late crest ? Suitable swaps are (Bachmann releases). 42789 or 42919 have late crest riveted tender 40934 has early emblem riveted tender Given this loco is £135+ and the above two are quite cheap to buy I'd buy the above to swap the tender and /or dispose of the front portion, rather than start rubbing down the decals on the Stanier. With 42789 it'd be a tender body swap, as the tender chassis does not have a DCC plug/fitting. Early crest until the loco spent a short time at Horwich works in the November of 1961 when it had the crest altered to the late version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhar Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 I went through my saved Stanier Crab photos, which are all LMS period (all ten of them!). 2879, 13244/5, 13254 & 13265 are paired with visibly riveted tenders. 2948/9, 2955, 2968 and 13268 appear to be with flush riveted. Some tenders are a bit indistinct, so it is possible that I have identified a tender as flush because the rivets aren't showing clearly. I haven't got access to the relevant LMS Locos volume at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 The first two are 'original' Crabs, 2945(13245),13254, &13265 had the same full rivet tenders all their life. On photos the angle of shot, and 'heavy weathering' can be deceiving, 2948 had a flush tender from October 1948, had a 'flush' from Feb. 1954, 2955, and 2968 (13268) had the full rivet version all their (BR) life. All info in the Irwell 'Book Of The Stanier 2-6-0's'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tomlinson Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 The first two are 'original' Crabs, 2945(13245),13254, &13265 had the same full rivet tenders all their life. On photos the angle of shot, and 'heavy weathering' can be deceiving, 2948 had a flush tender from October 1948, had a 'flush' from Feb. 1954, 2955, and 2968 (13268) had the full rivet version all their (BR) life. All info in the Irwell 'Book Of The Stanier 2-6-0's'. IIRC there is a continuous batch of around 20 Crabs, including 42789, that have the visibly riveted tenders. The bulk were flush riveted, and this is borne out by photos. Moreover many retained early crest into the '60's, including the very small variant, as presumably Horwich wanted to use up stocks of old transfers. As ever, dated clear photos are the answer. John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) From what I have read, all the Stanier 2-6-0's came out with visibly rivetted Tenders. This makes sense when one looks at the last built 'Fowler' Crabs, 2P 4-4-0's, Compounds, 7F 0-8-0's and 3MT 2-6-2T's that came out after Stanier too over....All showing proud head rivets on cabsides, tanks, splashers and tenders. I have noticed that in certain lights the rivets are difficult to detect, leading one to assume the Tender was of a different type. Tenders did get swapped around during shopping but I suspect not too much if the footplate height differed a lot from that on the loco to which it was being attached. The tender behind the Bachmann model of 42969 in BR livery pre-dates the loco. It is of the old 'panelled' type introduced first on the Midland, so is obviously intended to portray a tender exchange. Edited February 12, 2017 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 The tender behind the Bachmann model of 42969 in BR livery pre-dates the loco. It is of the old 'panelled' type introduced first on the Midland, so is obviously intended to portray a tender exchange. Or until a photo of that combination is found, maybe to allow Bachmann to use up old stocks of tenders??? P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) I wouldn't like to say. Bachmann has had a rivetted Fowler tender for some years now, as seen behind my Crab. It is a basic tender of the old school with brake shoes not in line with wheel treads and no provision for electrical pick ups or a DCC decoder. That said, the tender behind the Stanier 2-6-0 just might have this body on an updated chassis. This is one of three keepsakes I kept when selling up the 4mm models. Edited February 12, 2017 by coachmann 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted February 12, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12, 2017 I have just done a bit of research, Stanier Moguls seem to have had both flush riveted tenders and snap head riveted tenders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Tenders: Stanier introduced snap-head rivets on joining the LMS in 1932, and applied these to the 'Fowler' tenders remaining in production for the Horwich Crabs, 4Fs, 5XP 'Jubilees' and his own 2-6-0s. These tenders had previously used counter-sunk rivets giving a smooth appearance, unlike the visible snap-head type. All snap-head riveted enders had coal rails, and many earlier counter-sunk tenders also received them, but not all. other differences are the beading around the top of panel: on most this was horizontal on top or the panel, but there were some where it was vertical and on the panel side, following its edge. This is often difficult to see, even at 12"/ft scale. All the Stanier Crabs had new, snap-head riveted tenders as built, and sixteen seem to have kept their original tender for life. The others exchanged tenders, sometimes several times, and could have any of the above combination of visible / non-visible rivets, coal rails or no coal rails, top or side beading. 2965 had its original tender 4534 for life; 2968 similarly had 4537 for life. 2969 had 4538 - 12/01/34, then from 26//5/56 4201, which was counter-sunk riveted with coal rails, then 4528, which had been built for 13259, from 22/4/61. Edit to correct second 2968 to 2969. Edited February 13, 2017 by LMS2968 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Midland Mole Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Today I got my grubby mitts on the Mogul, and as promised I took some pictures when I got it home. Really sorry about the poor picture quality, these were taken in the kitchen as the light was fading! Seeing it close up and examining it in detail I must say, I am really impressed by the model. I think Bachmann have done an excellent job. Alex 18 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Thank you very much for those. Your idea of poor picture quality obviously differs greatly from mine! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now