For those interested in old cars.

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, alastairq said:

OK..opinions, please

 

Which of the following three have the most 'modern'....and acceptable, ''drive?''

Standard 10, Morris Minor 1000, or Austin A35?

 

I have personal experience of all three in the past, but my memory is somewhat crowded of late..

I 'think' the Austin A35 was the more 'sporty' of the three to drive....especially since it contributed so much to the Austin Healey Sprite range.

But I also felt the Moggie Minor to be the more robust of the three....

 

[I chose these three as being of conventional construction, with a good spares backup....no fancy FWD for starters....]

A difficult choice, the Moggie Minor 'borrowed' the A35 engine and gearbox but had the torsion bar front suspension and rack and pinion steering. The Standard Ten engine went on to power the Triumph Herald and Spitfire so wasn't a slouch either.  

[Hobby]

If I was forced into a choice (and I mean forced!) and wanted it as a "daily", I'd choose the Moggie, but with disc brakes and 1300 engine/5 speed 'box upgrades. As a "classic" and just for shows/days out the A35, though I would have preferred the A40 but you didn't list it! None of them are cars I'd choose out of choice, though.

 

You looking at one, Alastair?

[alastairq]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

You looking at one, Alastair?

 Not at the moment....

 

 Just wanted to see some different viewpoints on what would have been staple basic motors..Especially at the cheapoh/banger end of the market in the late 1960's [a good ten years after being new?}

 

Personally i cannot see there would be much difference between the A series 1275 motor, and the A series 1098 [later type, wider bearings] motor....

 

In a car such as the Minor. 

 

A single SU carb [easier to keep in tune]...on an A-plus motor from a Marina is the only 1275 I feel worth fitting....but it requires conversion from the Triumph-based configuration to the BMC A-series type configuration....I did one [from a Marina van, so low compression compared to the car versions]...earlier this century so know what is involved....

 

The 5 speed [Ford or Mazda/Toyota] gearbox conversion is an upgrade I'd not be interested in....I don't need that 'more pleasant drive' reason....For me the issue is increased weight, in the wrong place...which will alter the dynamics of the original car to me. If I really really wanted  lower revs at a higher so-called 'cruising' speed then I'd alter the final drive ratio to that of the Sprites....

If I wanted to drive like a Must-get-on, I wouldn't start with a Minor or A35....Those still cheap enough to get hold of that fitted that bill, I probably would struggle to get in & out of.

 

The A35, with it's spridget follow-on association, is obviously a favourite with the racing brigade....But I have reservations regarding it's ruggedness compared to the Minor.

 

I know relatively little about the Standard...other than it didn't come as a 2 door [with a wider door for stiff auld boogahs like me]...

The ability to  use Herald/Spitfire upgrades is useful, but my experience of the Spitfire was that it was mechanically inferior to the BMC products..

 

The only reason I can think of for upgrading to disc brakes [for the Moggie] would be, ease of maintenance [compared to drums] and service parts availability.

Since I would never be performing 16 stops from 60 mph within half a mile, I don't think brake fade would become an issue [ For me...dunno how everybody else drives around....not a rabbit hole I want to go down].....

 

I really chose those three vehicles from the viewpoint of cheapness to get hold of, if in a slightly 'rough' state.

 

{I mean, really cheap...maybe a grand or so? Which would leave me with enough to spare to sort the essentials out]

 

 

Small enough 'original' engines to be insurance friendly, and fuel friendly,  I have no need for motorway mile munchers....

 

Plus, service spares availability.

 

Also I don't think the interiors were anything but basic and serviceable....something else that appeals to me for a user motor...

Although I would baulk at anything without a headlining.....I struggle to work upside down without taking a week off afterwards to recover.

 

If I were to look at, for example, a Minor, with a view to upgrading [if I were a modern driver, and not an old school auldfarht]...I would simply look at  fitting a Suzuki 5 speed gearbox and a Suzuki 3 cylinder , 1 or 1.3 litre, engine...plus some sort of strengthening upgrade for the rear axle ...[which I would do anyway.]

Much as has been done in the trials car world. {Liege?}

[PhilJ W]

For practicality I would choose the Standard Companion estate. I am aware that the small Standards had a reputation for rust but so did many cars of the era. Twenty years ago I was looking to buy a Morris Minor van but those that I looked at required a lot of work especially the van part*. Then I found an ad for a Reliant Kitten van and purchased that instead. 

*A separate part bolted onto the chassis. They suffered terribly from rust, especially around the gutters, it was not unusual for the roof to come flying off when driving.

[alastairq]

1 minute ago, PhilJ W said:

Then I found an ad for a Reliant Kitten van and purchased that instead. 

An excellent choice in my view.

The small Reliants are a decent choice for use in our modern world....

The only reservations I personally have, focus on the space for my body inside.

 

If I were after a n old sports car,then the Reliant SS1 would be my choice, rather than any of the more common BMC/Trumpet products.

 

The only issue I would have with the 4 wheeled Kitten-based options would be difficulties regarding the standard tyre sizes.

[PhilJ W]

37 minutes ago, alastairq said:

The only issue I would have with the 4 wheeled Kitten-based options would be difficulties regarding the standard tyre sizes.

Same as the original Mini, 10". There is one I often see around here wearing Minilites.

Edited February 18 by PhilJ W

[Dunsignalling]

If I were modernising a Minor as a daily driver, I'd want to obtain as much as possible from a single, easily found source. Therefore, my pick for a parts donor would be a first or second series Mazda MX5.

 

The mechanicals are pretty bullet proof but the structure isn't, and they were produced in big numbers, so are readily obtainable at reasonable cost.

 

Lively but not over-tuned, and economical 1600 motor, 5-speed box, with, perhaps, an adaptable aircon unit and power steering.

 

I reckon it might even be possible to design a custom subframe to marry the Mazda's rear suspension and axle to the Minor's spring mounts.

 

John

Edited February 18 by Dunsignalling

[steve1]

16 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

If I were modernising a Minor as a daily driver, I'd want to obtain as much as possible from a single, easily found source. Therefore, my pick for a parts donor would be a first or second series Mazda MX5.

 

The mechanicals are pretty bullet proof but the structure isn't, and they were produced in big numbers, so are readily obtainable at reasonable cost.

 

Lively but not over-tuned, and economical 1600 motor, 5-speed box, with, perhaps, an adaptable aircon unit and power steering.

 

I reckon it might even be possible to design a custom subframe to marry the Mazda's rear suspension and axle to the Minor's spring mounts.

 

John

 

You’re into hot rod territory with that amount of work…

 

steve

[Dunsignalling]

46 minutes ago, steve1 said:

 

You’re into hot rod territory with that amount of work…

 

steve

That largely depends on whether the motor and box would go into the shell without too much alteration of the latter. I suspect the gearbox would be the most likely sticking point!

 

Off-the-shelf front disc brake conversions are available so the front end wouldn't take much work. 

 

You could also keep the Minor back end, if my Mazda substitution idea proved impractical.

 

A new gearbox crossmember would be needed. The "trad" hot-rod approach would be to weld the middle bit of the Mazda one to the ends of that from the Minor, but that might not place the engine exactly where it's wanted.

 

TBH, so long as no major structural mods are necessary, no half-decent home mechanic versed in modern(ish) welding techniques and with access to the necessary gear should be overly scared by it.

 

My biggest priority would be to avoid using components that are harder to source than Minor spares!

 

John

 

PS. If I was actually going to try this, I'd be inclined to start with a Riley 1.5 to get a nicer interior, but which is mostly a Minor in other respects.

Edited February 18 by Dunsignalling

[Northmoor]

@Dunsignalling If you've read any of the OP's posts (anywhere in this thread) you'd conclude that converting a Minor to a re-bodied MX-5 isn't what he's looking for.  Wind-up windows instead of sliding ones are almost fancy, new tech.....

 

@alastairq I have no experience of the A35 or the Standard*, but having grown up with a 1955 Morris Minor in the family - still owned by Dad after 50 years and in need of complete restoration - I have some experience of keeping one going as an (almost) everyday car, because we did for at least 20 years. 

 

As others have said the 5-speed Toyota Starlet(?) gearbox conversion is a common one, although we never did that because driving around Welsh lanes where you'd struggle to exceed 40, it didn't justify the cost.  Consider if the roads you are likely to drive on, this will be satisfactory, a Minor won't perform like a Dellow and take a long time to get above 50mph.  Our original 803cc was replaced by a much more drivable 1098cc and running gear out of a van, but the rear axle was swapped so you weren't deaf even at those speeds. 

 

Brakes: later it did get disks off a Sierra I think (Marina was another option) but no servo but don't assume this is just modern driver's attitude nonsense; Minor brakes weren't considered good even in 1960 and in an emergency you could stop almost as quickly by applying for permission in writing.  The disks are a big improvement and I know many everyday Minors have the hubs/wheels changed to allow a better choice of modern tyres as well.

 

Considering the A35 sold in decent numbers (the Standard is much rarer) so it's notable that you see far fewer of them on the road.  The commonality of Minors does mean there is the greatest support in terms of original and upgrading parts.  If it falls to me to get our family Minor back on the road, I'll certainly be making a few upgrades.

[alastairq]

 The year before covid struck [When was that? I forget!] I had the opportunity to purchase a 4 door 948cc Minor in usable but not really what might be considered , 'showable' condition.

A mate of mine, and myself, got it for around 700 quid....

Neither of us really needed a Minor at that point, but it seemed trite not to take advantage.

We sorted the drum brakes with proper adjustment, and decent [softer] linings....A new master cylinder saw it stopping on a ninepence piece....from a decent 50 mph.

After a replacement distributor [with probably a better advance curve]...and a cleaned up cyl. head, the 948 cc engine proved to be no slouch.

 

Neither of us are 'incompetent' drivers, and we found that the acceleration from a stand was perfectly adequate for normal road use.  As was the ease with which an indicated 60mph came up.

 

In fact, both of us quite liked it, but since my chum had been the one who divvied up, it was his to sell on as he wished.

The downside for me was that the previous owner had fitteed what seemed to be, Mazda seats..plush, with headrests, but I found them somewhat inappropriate in the Minor. That, and LED headlight surrounds, etc.....even had a USB port.

 

Chum sold it to a fella from Nottinghamshire, who arrived, looked at it, coughed up and drove it all the way back home. Doubled what we paid for it with ease.

He phoned when he arrived home [we insisted, thinking back to the time my chum sold a Spitfire complete with LHD [a US import, we guessed]...to a lad who had come from Paris, of all places...He drove the Spit home to Paris,, almost non stop..and phoned when he got there, without drama..this in a car that had only seen a service and a quick making roadworthy....]  The Minor journey was also without incident.....[I was on standby, with a  tow rope, as it happened]

 

On the topic of appropriate road performance, much is made by drivers, of power...[Cue J Clarkson here?}

 

Yet, how many actually accelerate by flooring it every time they set off?

I certainly don't....uses too much fuel doing that, and I cannot afford such extravagances, so when I set off from normal traffic situations, I simply take my time....I don't seem to impede anyone or prevent them from being a loony...not that I would worry about impeding someone else's desire to make 'better' progress...They can puddle off into the sunset when the safe & correct opportunity arises. If it doesn't arise, well, that's life, folks, there are plenty out there much slower than I, to 50mph! 

From my experience, something like a Minor, in proper tune, with a 948cc or 1098cc [later version, not the first versions, please] can be easily and thoughtfully driven in much the same manner as any of today's small cars.

I expect the A35 could do the same [James Hunt's favorite road car being his A35 van?}.....

Perhaps too many modern owners of old cars are really a bit 'frightened' of them???

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

@Dunsignalling If you've read any of the OP's posts (anywhere in this thread) you'd conclude that converting a Minor to a re-bodied MX-5 isn't what he's looking for.  Wind-up windows instead of sliding ones are almost fancy, new tech.....

 

@alastairq I have no experience of the A35 or the Standard*, but having grown up with a 1955 Morris Minor in the family - still owned by Dad after 50 years and in need of complete restoration - I have some experience of keeping one going as an (almost) everyday car, because we did for at least 20 years. 

 

As others have said the 5-speed Toyota Starlet(?) gearbox conversion is a common one, although we never did that because driving around Welsh lanes where you'd struggle to exceed 40, it didn't justify the cost.  Consider if the roads you are likely to drive on, this will be satisfactory, a Minor won't perform like a Dellow and take a long time to get above 50mph.  Our original 803cc was replaced by a much more drivable 1098cc and running gear out of a van, but the rear axle was swapped so you weren't deaf even at those speeds. 

 

Brakes: later it did get disks off a Sierra I think (Marina was another option) but no servo but don't assume this is just modern driver's attitude nonsense; Minor brakes weren't considered good even in 1960 and in an emergency you could stop almost as quickly by applying for permission in writing.  The disks are a big improvement and I know many everyday Minors have the hubs/wheels changed to allow a better choice of modern tyres as well.

 

Considering the A35 sold in decent numbers (the Standard is much rarer) so it's notable that you see far fewer of them on the road.  The commonality of Minors does mean there is the greatest support in terms of original and upgrading parts.  If it falls to me to get our family Minor back on the road, I'll certainly be making a few upgrades.

Mind you, making the A30/35 go faster and stop better used to be a piece of cake, because the mechanicals formed the basis of the Austin Healey Sprite, (the MKII version of which was later badge engineered as the MG Midget), which received many upgrades that were backward compatible. Just find a crashed 1098 or 1275 Spridget and get the spanners out....

 

I wouldn't really see much point in "upgrading" a Minor that was intended to have even a medium-term future, using components off things that are, or soon will be, rarer than Minors.  

 

AIUI MX5 boxes have been fitted into Spridgets, so room wouldn't seem to be an issue. 

 

Unless you have an emotional attachment to pushrods or an aversion to catalytic convertors, why go to the hassle of splicing a modern gearbox on to a 1950s engine? Apart from fabricating mountings, getting an exhaust system and prop-shaft made up and sourcing a disc brake conversion kit, everything would come directly from one car or the other. 

 

It's going to be far better/simpler to use a complete engine/gearbox, radiator etc from something that's commonly available with a range of specialist repairers/salvagers to keep it going for a decade or two, (for instance) a Mazda.  

 

Keep the Minor heater/demisters or add a Mazda aircon unit as you wish. A full range of choices from stone age to space age is on offer!! 😉

 

John

Edited February 18 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

42 minutes ago, alastairq said:

 The year before covid struck [When was that? I forget!] I had the opportunity to purchase a 4 door 948cc Minor in usable but not really what might be considered , 'showable' condition.

A mate of mine, and myself, got it for around 700 quid....

Neither of us really needed a Minor at that point, but it seemed trite not to take advantage.

We sorted the drum brakes with proper adjustment, and decent [softer] linings....A new master cylinder saw it stopping on a ninepence piece....from a decent 50 mph.

After a replacement distributor [with probably a better advance curve]...and a cleaned up cyl. head, the 948 cc engine proved to be no slouch.

 

Neither of us are 'incompetent' drivers, and we found that the acceleration from a stand was perfectly adequate for normal road use.  As was the ease with which an indicated 60mph came up.

 

In fact, both of us quite liked it, but since my chum had been the one who divvied up, it was his to sell on as he wished.

The downside for me was that the previous owner had fitteed what seemed to be, Mazda seats..plush, with headrests, but I found them somewhat inappropriate in the Minor. That, and LED headlight surrounds, etc.....even had a USB port.

 

Chum sold it to a fella from Nottinghamshire, who arrived, looked at it, coughed up and drove it all the way back home. Doubled what we paid for it with ease.

He phoned when he arrived home [we insisted, thinking back to the time my chum sold a Spitfire complete with LHD [a US import, we guessed]...to a lad who had come from Paris, of all places...He drove the Spit home to Paris,, almost non stop..and phoned when he got there, without drama..this in a car that had only seen a service and a quick making roadworthy....]  The Minor journey was also without incident.....[I was on standby, with a  tow rope, as it happened]

 

On the topic of appropriate road performance, much is made by drivers, of power...[Cue J Clarkson here?}

 

Yet, how many actually accelerate by flooring it every time they set off?

I certainly don't....uses too much fuel doing that, and I cannot afford such extravagances, so when I set off from normal traffic situations, I simply take my time....I don't seem to impede anyone or prevent them from being a loony...not that I would worry about impeding someone else's desire to make 'better' progress...They can puddle off into the sunset when the safe & correct opportunity arises. If it doesn't arise, well, that's life, folks, there are plenty out there much slower than I, to 50mph! 

From my experience, something like a Minor, in proper tune, with a 948cc or 1098cc [later version, not the first versions, please] can be easily and thoughtfully driven in much the same manner as any of today's small cars.

I expect the A35 could do the same [James Hunt's favorite road car being his A35 van?}.....

Perhaps too many modern owners of old cars are really a bit 'frightened' of them???

 

James Hunt's A35 van was, AIUI, pure Mk4 1275 Midget underneath, hot cam, bigger carbs and all.... 

 

Just because a modern motor would make an old car potentially faster, there's no compulsion to boot it. My suggested Mazda unit would be more tractable, have enough in reserve for steep hills (important where I live), even a bit of towing should one fancy it; and all while probably returning better mpg.    

 

My own youthful experience of equally well set-up A35s/Minors, with later 1098cc motors for preference; (1275 sprite lumps did nasty things to insurance premiums) belonging to my brother and a couple of friends who loved the things and roped me in to help, was that either could do 60 mph or 40 mpg but not both...

 

Me? I found myself a Renault 10 that could manage 60 mph and 50 mpg at the same time. It also had disc brakes all round and fully reclining seats that saved putting the tent up for overnight stops.

 

IIRC, when new, it had cost its first owner about twenty quid more than a four-door Minor....

 

John  

Edited February 18 by Dunsignalling

[PhilJ W]

I follow a group on Facebook for American British car enthusiasts. A few years ago one of the group members obtained a Hillman Husky with a rotted out floorpan. He was well pleased when I told him that they shared the same floorpan with the Sunbeam Alpine/Tiger. He went out and found a Sunbeam Tiger that had been rolled but had a good floorpan, he also fitted the Ford V8 from the Tiger later replaced by a Chevrolet V8 and auto transmission.

[Oldddudders]

I have never driven an A35. I have, however, done quite some miles in the passenger seat of more than one A35 van. 5743PH and 1297PL come to mind as reg numbers. Mean motors if you abuse them round Surrey lanes, especially with a load of electrician's kit in the back bit!

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

 Neither of us are 'incompetent' drivers, and we found that the acceleration from a stand was perfectly adequate for normal road use. 

 

On the topic of appropriate road performance, much is made by drivers, of power...[Cue J Clarkson here?}

 

Yet, how many actually accelerate by flooring it every time they set off?

 

From my experience, something like a Minor, in proper tune, with a 948cc or 1098cc [later version, not the first versions, please] can be easily and thoughtfully driven in much the same manner as any of today's small cars.

 

In reply to these points:

• Yes to a 948 or 1098 (or a 1275), either will be fine.  Yes you can put in more modern engines but it's always going to be easier to keep it an A-series. No to an 803 or a 918 side-valve.  The latter was considered a bit slow in 1948 and are NOT a suitable everyday vehicle.
• No not everybody floors it every time but - I don't know where you live - around here, roads are BUSY.  At roundabouts, if you were to wait for a gap long enough to pull out and into gently like a little old lady in a Morris Minor, you wouldn't have to worry about the rush hour.  It would be over before you pulled out.  You need to be able to set off quickly.  As I said before, we drove our Minor in rural Wales where you rarely had to wait at all at junctions.  If traffic is generally light in your area or the main roads have plenty of places (for sensible drivers) to overtake, then fine.
• Remember the important principle which we all apply: A person who drives slower than you is dawdling, one who drives faster than you is a maniac.

[SRman]

On the subject of brakes: all of the Australian cars from the 1950s and '60s had drum brakes all round. Holden/Ford/Chrysler also had 6-cylinder engines (and even V8s), so those drum brakes were not really ideal. Having experienced driving such cars through minor flooding, it's not just brake fade from multiple higher-speed stops that cause problems, but after they got wet, the brakes were almost non-existent. I have on several past occasions had to drive along the highway (very carefully!) with my right foot on the accelerator and left foot on the brake pedal, drying them out.

[alastairq]

10 hours ago, SRman said:

it's not just brake fade from multiple higher-speed stops that cause problems, but after they got wet, the brakes were almost non-existent. I have on several past occasions had to drive along the highway (very carefully!) with my right foot on the accelerator and left foot on the brake pedal, drying them out.

 Normal procedure after driving through floods, I would have thought? Whatever one was driving? {Even a 50 tonne wagon!]

[alastairq]

12 hours ago, Northmoor said:

You need to be able to set off quickly

 Then, I wonder how drivers of slow, heavy wagons get on? [No, I don't wonder, really....I never found entering a busy roundabout a problem, provided one didn't join in the game of whacky racers...}

[Northmoor]

Just now, alastairq said:

 Then, I wonder how drivers of slow, heavy wagons get on? [No, I don't wonder, really....I never found entering a busy roundabout a problem, provided one didn't join in the game of whacky racers...}

They use their size - if a lorry pulls out you just HAVE to slow down.  Size of your vehicle does impact how people behave towards you; people will frequently pull out and turn left if a motorcycle or small car truck is coming from their right, but very rarely if it is a bus or HGV at the same speed.  It's instinctive, we don't perceive the same threat from a small vehicle yet ironically it is more likely to be able to slow down quickly and controllably.

[Nick C]

10 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

They use their size - if a lorry pulls out you just HAVE to slow down.  Size of your vehicle does impact how people behave towards you; people will frequently pull out and turn left if a motorcycle or small car truck is coming from their right, but very rarely if it is a bus or HGV at the same speed.  It's instinctive, we don't perceive the same threat from a small vehicle yet ironically it is more likely to be able to slow down quickly and controllably.

Unless, of course, it's one of the people who like to submit clips for YouTube dashcam videos - in which case they will floor it onto the roundabout as a large vehicle is entering on the next junction to their left, then slam on the anchors and whine "he pulled out in front of me" - errr, no, he was already moving before you entered!

[alastairq]

55 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Unless, of course, it's one of the people who like to submit clips for YouTube dashcam videos - in which case they will floor it onto the roundabout as a large vehicle is entering on the next junction to their left, then slam on the anchors and whine "he pulled out in front of me" - errr, no, he was already moving before you entered!

Indeed, folk forget this when they use excessive  speed around roundabouts.

They forget that they, too, have a duty in Law.....to exercise proper care and consideration for other road users....Which means, even when on a roundabout, one has to consider that, if another entry point is not visible to you, there may be a slower moving vehicle [large, or not]...that has set off, when their view to the right shows a clear path...which may make one a 'following' vehicle, rather than a ''crossing'' vehicle...when one hoves into view?

I find that the horns usually sound, not because anyone is in any danger of hitting anyone else...but when someone has invaded what may be deemed as, someone else's visual air space.  [Getouttamyway''syndrome..?]

How dare anybody appear in my vision....

 

Once actually 'on' that roundabout, it really doesn't matter if one isn't capable of high  speed acceleration.  They're all following vehicles, so can chunter all they like.

As far as I'm concerned...

 

 

[Captain Cuttle]

On 16/02/2024 at 11:55, PhilJ W said:

 

Being discussed on the Early Risers thread.

I would rather have had Dads 3.4 mk 2 Jaguar, it was probably the best car we ever had, quiet, fast and comfortable, note the yellow socks!  Sept 1970 Kynance Cornwall plus one of TKE 675 in our drive Leicester Ave Cliftonville 1968. In the garage out of sight  was my maroon1952 Jowett Javelin NXA 89!

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, Captain Cuttle said:

I would rather have had Dads 3.4 mk 2 Jaguar, it was probably the best car we ever had, quiet, fast and comfortable, note the yellow socks!  Sept 1970 Kynance Cornwall plus one of TKE 675 in our drive Leicester Ave Cliftonville 1968. In the garage out of sight  was my maroon1952 Jowett Javelin NXA 89!

That looks like a FD Victor behind it, no slouch especially in VX4/90 form. And is that a Rover behind them?

[monkeysarefun]

This was parked down the local showground today.

 

Its a 1937  Vauxhall with a  GY "Sloper" body which was produced in Australia by Holden, off of a design from the US.

 

It has  a 3125cc OHV 6-cylinder engine, 4-speed floor shift transmission, hydraulic brakes and independent front suspension.

 

Just 51 were made and according to the bloke who owns it  this is the only one still driving. There is one other surviving example but it is not running.