Bluebell railway extension

[Neal Ball]

According to the latest Bluebell News just out, things are proceeding on schedule with both the fundraising and waste removal. ....... and in December for a week from 5 December there is an initiative where you can donate on line and have the money matched pound for pound from other sources. I'll put up a topic about this nearer the time (with Andy's permission) unless someone else gets there first........

 

I think its work quoting now! (sorry to hijack your thoughts Rod !) - http://thebiggive.or...ects/view/13964 - For a week from 5th Dec every donation made this way, will be matched £ for £ - I will be out of the country, so need to take Bluebell News with me to get the right web address.

 

Did you also know you can donate by using your mobile? (this is outside the £ for £ scheme) "BEXT11 £10" to 70070 - You can donate any amount, it doesn't have to be a tenner (although that will be nice!) - it is also possible to add gift aid onto here as well.

 

The video with Nick Owen has also been updated:

 

......

Very disapointing to see wagons arriving not emptied.

I cannot see how they would not have emptied the new ballast before filling again with rubbish!! perhaps their are missing pictures or he wasnt there when they were emptied first ?

 

Usually on a Monday the wagons arrive with ballast donated(?) by Network Rail following weekend engineering works that the wagons were involved in. This is generally emptied before the rubbish goes in!

 

I'm looking forward to 2012 when we can get a steam train into East Grinstead - 1st through train - London Victoria to Sheffield Park...... Tornado(?)

[Oldddudders]

I'm looking forward to 2012 when we can get a steam train into East Grinstead - 1st through train - London Victoria to Sheffield Park...... Tornado(?)

I do hope not. A faux LNER Pacific has no place on such an occasion. An LBSCR loco would be ideal, a Southern Railway one a good second-best. Leave celebrity steam for galas and other non-specific jamborees.

[jamie92208]

I do hope not. A faux LNER Pacific has no place on such an occasion. An LBSCR loco would be ideal, a Southern Railway one a good second-best. Leave celebrity steam for galas and other non-specific jamborees.

 

Perhaps the Brighton Atlantic if the project gets a move on.

 

Jamie

[phil-b259]

 

Perhaps the Brighton Atlantic if the project gets a move on.

 

Jamie

 

No chance, even if it was finished in time as there are no plans to get it mainline certified.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Shame the railway is so pro kettle, that cuts out a possible income stream, D & E enthusiasts, with traction already mainline approved.

I liked the comment in the film about the railway going from nowhere to nowhere currently, when the extension is opened it will go from nowhere to somewhere, seems like Sheffield Park is officially nowhere!

[number6]

Shame the railway is so pro kettle, that cuts out a possible income stream, D & E enthusiasts, with traction already mainline approved.

I liked the comment in the film about the railway going from nowhere to nowhere currently, when the extension is opened it will go from nowhere to somewhere, seems like Sheffield Park is officially nowhere!

 

Surely you got that the wrong way around! East Grinstead is the nowhere.

 

I like the fact that the line is majority steam - easy to shuffle over and support the TWERPS at the Spa Valley if you want some Southern Region diesels. And much in the way Tornado is best seen making its racket out on the mainline and not pottering around tender first - mainline diesels just don't fit the character of the line. Best to just take over from one with a pair of Terriers at EG for the run south I reckon.

Regards 6

[Ian J.]

Best to just take over from one with a pair of Terriers at EG for the run south I reckon.

That I'd like to see - two terriers hauling a ten or twelve coach train down to Sheffield Park, and back!

[Oldddudders]

Perhaps Gladstone could be procured for a static appearance at HK?

[Torn-on-the-platform]

That I'd like to see - two terriers hauling a ten or twelve coach train down to Sheffield Park, and back!

 

Especially when one of the terriers is out of ticket and the other isn't particularly healthy. I know the K&ESR's policy is that terriers can pull a maximum of 2 Mk1s, I assume Stepney can't even pull that at the moment. The first SP-EG-SP train I would expect will be one of the bigger locos double heading with Stepney or Bluebell. The last train to run up to the tip I think was Sir Archibald Sinclair with Birch Grove on the other end.

 

If the Atlantic is ready by then, it would surely be involved but I expect it will be Camelot or one of the Maunsell Society's engines (U or S15) as Sir Archibald Sinclair won't be back in action until 2013.

 

As for the first mainline run, Tornado IS due a trip to the railway after pulling out at short notice a couple of years ago. I would hope though that it would be one of the Southern engines that is out and about at the moment. A personal preference would be Braunton who is currently being made ready for the mainline.

[phil-b259]

 

Especially when one of the terriers is out of ticket and the other isn't particularly healthy. I know the K&ESR's policy is that terriers can pull a maximum of 2 Mk1s, I assume Stepney can't even pull that at the moment. The first SP-EG-SP train I would expect will be one of the bigger locos double heading with Stepney or Bluebell. The last train to run up to the tip I think was Sir Archibald Sinclair with Birch Grove on the other end.

 

 

Stepney is under strict instructions to 'do nothing' when in steam. She / he / it has several bad cracks in the main frames, none of which we given any attention at the last overhaul simply becuse the loco needed to be back in work for the 50th anaversery celebrations and the fear is if they are subjected to any signifficant stress, we could end up with a set of bits in the 4ft. The boiler itself though is in not too bad condition.

 

 

If the Atlantic is ready by then, it would surely be involved but I expect it will be Camelot or one of the Maunsell Society's engines (U or S15) as Sir Archibald Sinclair won't be back in action until 2013.

 

 

Which does leave the railway a bit short of large motive power in the short term (of the currently steamable fleet only the 4MT & U are allowed 6 mk1s)

[Southernman46]

Pair of Crompton's it is then...........................

[cromptonnut]

Pair of Crompton's it is then...........................

 

Or the Hastings DEMU, can't get much more Southern than that and currently mainline certified...

[Chris Dadson]

The last train to run up to the tip I think was Sir Archibald Sinclair with Birch Grove on the other end.

At the time of writing, the last train to operate north of Kingscote up to Imberhorne South carrying passengers was on Thursday 13th October 2011. The motive power used was ex-SECR class 'P' engine No 323. I was part of the train crew.

 

 

 

Which does leave the railway a bit short of large motive power in the short term (of the currently steamable fleet only the 4MT & U are allowed 6 mk1s).

I don't understand where this perceived idea that the railway has a motive power problem originates. Question: how many trains have been cancelled in the last 2 or 3 years due to lack of serviceable motive power? Answer: none.

 

What the railway needs are efficient engines capable of hauling the maximum length of trains (6-coaches) over the line's gradient profile. There is no operational requirement to work longer heavier trains, hence large engines than are necessary fall into the category of 'nice to have' and not 'must have'.

[phil-b259]

At the time of writing, the last train to operate north of Kingscote up to Imberhorne South carrying passengers was on Thursday 13th October 2011. The motive power used was ex-SECR class 'P' engine No 323. I was part of the train crew.

 

I don't understand where this perceived idea that the railway has a motive power problem originates. Question: how many trains have been cancelled in the last 2 or 3 years due to lack of serviceable motive power? Answer: none.

 

What the railway needs are efficient engines capable of hauling the maximum length of trains (6-coaches) over the line's gradient profile. There is no operational requirement to work longer heavier trains, hence large engines than are necessary fall into the category of 'nice to have' and not 'must have'.

 

 

Oh don't get me wrong Chris I am well aware (being a fellow volunteer) that the Bluebell doesn't need lots of large engines, especially if the older and lighter stock is used. That said the Bluebell management quite rightly do to err on the side of caution when it comes to permitted loads on some of the older locos. My point however was in connection with the scenario that if a main line excursion arrived at East Grinstead and a Bluebell loco were to take the train south. Given that it would in all likelihood exceed 6 mk1s if a Bluebell loco were to haul it south from East Grinstead it would require the use of a large engine and the choice would be limited. The chances of that particular scenario happening are remote though.

Also there is the point that with Santa trains coming up (as I understand it three 5 or 6 coach trains) it does mean things could be a bit tight if the U or the 4MT have problems now that Archie is out. Double heading is fine but you do need the extra crews available to do it.

[Blandford1969]

 

 

 

Oh don't get me wrong Chris I am well aware (being a fellow volunteer) that the Bluebell doesn't need lots of large engines, especially if the older and lighter stock is used. That said the Bluebell management quite rightly do to err on the side of caution when it comes to permitted loads on some of the older locos. My point however was in connection with the scenario that if a main line excursion arrived at East Grinstead and a Bluebell loco were to take the train south. Given that it would in all likelihood exceed 6 mk1s if a Bluebell loco were to haul it south from East Grinstead it would require the use of a large engine and the choice would be limited. The chances of that particular scenario happening are remote though.

 

Also there is the point that with Santa trains coming up (as I understand it three 5 or 6 coach trains) it does mean things could be a bit tight if the U or the 4MT have problems now that Archie is out. Double heading is fine but you do need the extra crews available to do it.

 

The other factors in terms of loadings is of course the coal consumption and costs. Coal at the moment is about £146 per tonne, looking at the SVR the average consumption per mile is about 32kgs on a 6 coach train (averaging out the whole year) adding 2 coaches adds about 2 to 4 kgs per mile depending on the time of year. Double heading just doubles your cost of operation outright and most railways are now feeling the pinch in terms of operating costs.

 

Getting back to the extension how are the latest trains going?

[Chris Dadson]

My point however was in connection with the scenario that if a main line excursion arrived at East Grinstead and a Bluebell loco were to take the train south. Given that it would in all likelihood exceed 6 mk1s if a Bluebell loco were to haul it south from East Grinstead it would require the use of a large engine and the choice would be limited. The chances of that particular scenario happening are remote though.

I’m sure that all excursion and tours entering the Bluebell at East Grinstead will continue running with the mainline locomotives attached when they arrive. At East Grinstead there will be neither facilities or track layout to berth mainline locomotives, so a Bluebell ‘driver’ and a Bluebell ‘guard’ will join the train to pilot it on to its destination over the Bluebell rails.Train formations longer than 6-coaches will by necessity have to terminate at Horsted Keynes.

 

 

 

Getting back to the extension how are the latest trains going?

Currently operating the fifth and hopefully penultimate batch of Waste-By-Rail trains to clear the waste material from Imberhorne Cutting. Upon completion of this phase on 2^nd December, the amount of remaing waste will be assessed to determine how much more material still requires to be removed. It is anticipated at this stage that this should hopefully require a maximum of just a further 10-trains to complete the job. The necessary amount of waste material will then be removed (subject to the necessary funding having been raised) in the first-quarter of next year, after which the cutting will be landscaped and prepared for a single track to be laid down.

[brushman47544]

Train formations longer than 6-coaches will by necessity have to terminate at Horsted Keynes.

Why? Assuming both platforms were free at Sheffield Park, wouldn't the headshunt be long enough to allow longer trains?

 

1. Main line train arrives. Loco runs forward and then reverses into the other platform.

2. Bluebell shunt loco draws stock forward as far as headshunt allows.

3. Main line loco backs onto stock, which would now be clear of the points at the Horsted Keynes end.

4. Main line train departs.

 

I've no idea how many extra coaches this would allow, nor am I suggesting it should be allowed to happen, but if a railtour operator was willing to pay enough, why not in theory at least?

 

Glad to hear the good news on the extension progress.

[Gwiwer]

Question: how many trains have been cancelled in the last 2 or 3 years due to lack of serviceable motive power? Answer: none.

 

One failure that I know of but strictly speaking no actual cancellation

 

On 16th May 2009 the regular two-train service was being worked by 65 and 34059 and with 80151 in steam for a wedding charter. 65 was failed on the 1.55pm Kingscote - SP and was taken off. With nothing left to power the 3pm up the charter and passenger sets were coupled and an 8-coach service departed SP in the timings of the charter behind 80151 at 3.45pm. You could argue that no actual service was cancelled but by the time this was organised it was some 45 minutes late by the timetable on an hourly service and only just in front of the final 4pm up trip led by 34059.

 

Had the charter not been booked then there would have been no stand-by motive power steamed and the 3pm up / 3.55pm down would not have run at all.

 

My picture shows not only an 8-coach train departing Sheffield Park but also that the Standard Tank found the task well within its capabilities. Freshfield Bank was apparently taken with a blast of sound and exhaust!

 

 

Now looking forward to making my first trip over the Kingscote - EG section which should be open by the next time I am there. Progress being watched with interest.

[Chris Dadson]

Why? Assuming both platforms were free at Sheffield Park, wouldn't the headshunt be long enough to allow longer trains?

The platform length of Sheffield Park can comfortably accommodate a maximum of 6 x Mk.1 coaches, or a 7-coach train can be sqeezed in providing the driver stops carefully so as to avoid activating the adjacent track-circuits thereby locking up the points and the Electric Block Instrument. A 7-coach train will also block the foot crossing, thereby preventing visitors using wheelchairs and parents with pushchairs from being able to cross the line. Trains formed of 8 or more Mk.1 coaches need to be signalled using a non-standard procedure which has always caused late running. The Bluebell Railway will obviously wish to continue operating its own revenue earning service trains without any disruptions to the timetable. Therefore there is no option but to terminate all trains formed of more than 6-coaches at Horsted Keynes.

 

 

 

One failure that I know of but strictly speaking no actual cancellation.

 

On 16th May 2009 the regular two-train service was being worked by 65 and 34059 and with 80151 in steam for a wedding charter. 65 was failed on the 1.55pm Kingscote - SP and was taken off. With nothing left to power the 3pm up the charter and passenger sets were coupled and an 8-coach service departed SP in the timings of the charter behind 80151 at 3.45pm. You could argue that no actual service was cancelled but by the time this was organised it was some 45 minutes late by the timetable on an hourly service and only just in front of the final 4pm up trip led by 34059.

 

Had the charter not been booked then there would have been no stand-by motive power steamed and the 3pm up / 3.55pm down would not have run at all.

Combining two trains together is one way of avoiding canceling train services. What you saw in 2009 is not unique by any means.

 

And besides in 2009 the railway had a new secret reserve available for use, which to my knowledge has now been used at least twice to ‘save the day’ !!!

[brushman47544]

The platform length of Sheffield Park can comfortably accommodate a maximum of 6 x Mk.1 coaches, or a 7-coach train can be sqeezed in providing the driver stops carefully so as to avoid activating the adjacent track-circuits thereby locking up the points and the Electric Block Instrument. A 7-coach train will also block the foot crossing, thereby preventing visitors using wheelchairs and parents with pushchairs from being able to cross the line. Trains formed of 8 or more Mk.1 coaches need to be signalled using a non-standard procedure which has always caused late running. The Bluebell Railway will obviously wish to continue operating its own revenue earning service trains without any disruptions to the timetable. Therefore there is no option but to terminate all trains formed of more than 6-coaches at Horsted Keynes.

I accept all that, but you're not thinking outside the box.

 

Many charter trains have long itineraries and terminate late in the evening, so why not a charter that arrives at EG at the end of scheduled services. After all they don't finish that late - Service Two finishes at Sheffield Park at 4.30pm and Service One at 5.30pm. Yes, the Bluebell train would need to be moved out of the way so both platforms and headshunt were clear at SP (run ecs to HK?) but if it meant extra revenue and profits for the railway why not?

 

And there are plenty of weekdays when no services run.

[Torn-on-the-platform]

At the time of writing, the last train to operate north of Kingscote up to Imberhorne South carrying passengers was on Thursday 13th October 2011. The motive power used was ex-SECR class 'P' engine No 323. I was part of the train crew.

 

Sorry, I forgot about that one!

 

Stepney is under strict instructions to 'do nothing' when in steam. She / he / it has several bad cracks in the main frames, none of which we given any attention at the last overhaul simply becuse the loco needed to be back in work for the 50th anaversery celebrations and the fear is if they are subjected to any signifficant stress, we could end up with a set of bits in the 4ft. The boiler itself though is in not too bad condition.

 

Whilst I appreciate that there is an overhaul queue and it needed to be back in steam for the 50th anniversary, I don't really understand why the loco hasn't now been retired until the cracks (and cylinders?) can be attended to. I suppose they would like Stepney as a station pilot for Santa specials, and to be available for the first trains from East Grinstead, but Baxter and Bluebell are running, surely that's enough to entertain the children for now?

 

The last time I saw Stepney haul a service train alone was probably straight after its last overhaul, before which I think it had been out of steam for some years so I would guess that the overhaul should have been pretty extensive else it would have been done earlier. I was only about 9 or 10 at the time so I don't remember which stock it was. Since I've been of an age to really take note of what is going on at the railway, I can only remember Stepney double heading, doing brake-van rides and observation car/4 wheeler specials, whereas until it was retired, Fenchurch could handle the Mets by itself.

 

 

Question: how many trains have been cancelled in the last 2 or 3 years due to lack of serviceable motive power? Answer: none.

 

There has been discussion in the latest Bluebell News letters section about people's opinion on the motive power 'shortage', and my view echos that of Chris Dadson - its nice to have big locos, but not necessary. At this current time though, with the 4MT about to bow out leaving only the U class as a 6 coach engine, it would be fair to say the situation is not ideal.

 

With the return of Sir Archibald, Camelot and the S15 (maybe even Beachy Head) in the next few years, the situation will be far better as, other than Stepney (2015) the next loco to be retired will be the U class in 2016. The H class will also provide a boost with the Q class hopefully following a couple of years later. What large loco shortage? If my predictions are correct the fleet will be stronger than I can remember it ever being.

 

With regards to a big Bluebell Engine being needed to take over a mainline arrival, this would surely not happen. As Chris said, the local crew would join the train, and maybe a pilot engine, but there would be no reason to take the incoming engine off the train and leave it at East Grinstead, unless it were to go for turning, but I don't know what suitable arrangements there are for this manoeuvres.

[Gwiwer]

take the incoming engine off the train and leave it at East Grinstead, unless it were to go for turning, but I don't know what suitable arrangements there are for this manoeuvres.

 

Quite simply none. Nowhere at EG to turn a loco, nowhere to install a 'table and no commercial case to even consider such expenditure. If / when trains run through onto the Bluebell once more I would expect they might be topped and tailed on the national network anyway as is fairly commonplace. It might be possible to drop off a trailing diesel at EG but what then takes the train back up from HK / SP?

 

Some head-scratching would need to be done - and is probably under way already if I know anything about how the Bluebell works - to figure out the best option while trying to not have a diesel-hauled train in operation.

[cromptonnut]

Some head-scratching would need to be done - and is probably under way already if I know anything about how the Bluebell works - to figure out the best option while trying to not have a diesel-hauled train in operation.

 

Is having a diesel on the Bluebell now and again really such a big deal? It's not like they're going to take over is it?

[Gwiwer]

 

Is having a diesel on the Bluebell now and again really such a big deal? It's not like they're going to take over is it?

That really has to be their call. The Bluebell has a virtually steam-only record since they began (and have only used other forms of traction when steam has not been a realistic option) but are still thought of as a steam-only operation by many visitors. Charters would not be part of their normal timetable of course but we can always be confident of arriving at Sheffield Park and finding the public service steam hauled without having to check timetables and calendars first. That much is not true on many lines.

[Torn-on-the-platform]

Quite simply none. Nowhere at EG to turn a loco, nowhere to install a 'table and no commercial case to even consider such expenditure. If / when trains run through onto the Bluebell once more I would expect they might be topped and tailed on the national network anyway as is fairly commonplace. It might be possible to drop off a trailing diesel at EG but what then takes the train back up from HK / SP?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of a turning triangle out on the mainline, as they sometimes seem to do when a steam special comes to Swanage. I have now looked at the map of the local network and it would have to be a very large triangle indeed! Diesel assistance is the answer I suppose, and really, its not the worst thing in the world as it wouldn't be on a Bluebell service train.