Best decoder for a Tortoise?

[Mike53A]

Hi there,

 

I have decided to try fitting some tortoise point motors but am little bewildered by the decoder options (so far been using the prototypical finger). Do any of you who use the Tortoise have any recomendations?, are individual decoders the best option or something a bit more sophisticated?

 

I have a small area of my layout with 3 easily accessible points I intend using as a test area before deciding what to do with the rest of the layout. All motors will be retro fitted although i did make some slots in the baseboards under the point tiebars with point motors always at the back of my mind.

The dcc controller I use is the Prodigy advance2.

 

The only reservation I had over the Tortoise is that a couple of my points are close to baseboard cross members so I did consider the Cobalt which I believe take up less space.

 

Thanks

Mike

[Wogga]

i think you will find the NCE Switch 8 a good option. it can drive eight tortoi from a nice compact pcb. Only drawback is it takes the power from track supply so can reduce power capacityfrom ypur control unit for running lococs. That said i have run 21 points and the power usage was minimal.

 

my layout had 21 motors, 12 lsound locos , and other addotions all running off the power of the dcc controller and the ammeter has never passed 2 amps yet! in the real electrical world we call it diversity i.e. not every thing will operate at the same time.

[Suzie]

Tortoises take about 6mA each so you need to have quite a lot before you have to worry about loading up the track supply.

 

If cost is an issue I would recommend using DIY decoders.

[RFS]

I can heartily recommend the NCE Switch-8 for Tortoises.  The outputs easily cope with 2 turnouts forming a crossover - in fact I have one Switch-8 on my main station throat that has 15 Tortoises connected and there's never been a problem in 2 years.  I've got 65 motors using a Lenz system, and (as Suzie said) power draw is minimal with one motor drawing much less power than a coach with lights.

[richard brown]

I have been using digitrax ds64 as you can change the out put from solenoid to stall motor.

 

Richard

[Gruffalo]

The positive votes for Switch-8 are welcomed as I have just bought two Switch-8's to go with my NCE system. Ultimately, 26 Tortoises will require control in my LGP and very few will operate as switched pairs. I chose Tortoise over Cobalts because they seem to be bomb proof whilst Cobalts have an excellent guarantee - I hope I will not be disappointed!

[John K]

I have a lot of Tortoises under the baseboards all driven by three DAC20s from CML electronics.

http://www.cmlelectronics.co.uk/index.php/dac20

Each DAC20 will drive up to 8 point motors and costs £65 or £8 per point.

They are flexible and will do a lot of clever stuff too. The manual is available as a pdf download from the website.

No connection - just a happy customer.

Best,

John

[Mike53A]

Hi there,

 

thanks for all the advice, I like the sound of the NCE switch, gives me the option to expand easily. I've seen the NCE mentioned in other threads, so I think I'll have a read up on them. I'll also look into the ds64 as another option.

 

The DIY option is a no go, put a soldering iron in my hands and you're asking for trouble.

 

All the best,

Mike

[Suzie]

If you cannot do soldering then it is unadvisable to DIY. The savings on doing DIY can make it worth learning, typically you will be looking at decoder costs below £2 per point using the kits or below £1 if you source the parts yourself. 

[corax67]

I've been running tortoise motors for years from Lenz LS100 & LS110's without a hint of a problem.

 

The motors are so well built I think they are tolerant of pretty much any setup.

[96701]

When I had my Digitrax set-up, I used a DAC10 from CML Electronics system to control my Tortoise powered points. One output could cope with driving 2 points - dead handy for crossovers, and I have 3 of them. My son built me some MERG CBUS kits, so I now use a CANACC5 in exactly the same way as I used the DAC10.

[melmerby]

Another vote for Switch-8s

You can set any address on any output which is good.

 

Seem to be pretty indestructable same as the Tortoise.

 

When I first switched to Tortoise I used the LS150s I had used for solenoids

LS 150s are OK but the points change in sequence after the operating period (3 seconds or so required for a Slow Motion motor) so several points on one LS150 could take an age!

The also do not hold the Tortoise at the end of travel, which could be a problem if there is much spring in the point blades. (not the over-centre spring!)

 

Keith

Edited November 3, 2013 by melmerby

[Mike53A]

The one thing I've learned is that there is an awful lot of stuff out there I've never heard of before, but having had a bit of a read last night have decided to go with the Switch-8, although thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

 

Suzie, you've got me interested in the DIY option even if only as a learning exercise.

 

Once again thanks to all, I'll go and order my bits now and hopefully make a start next weekend.

 

All the best

Mike

[melmerby]

It's a pity this device can't be used with Tortoise and similar motors without an adaptor:

 

http://www.digirails.com/en/review/product/list/id/35/category/14/

 

It's extremely versatile and is moderately priced (Just over £20 UK)

 

You have to use one of these on each output which rather bumps the price up somewhat:

 

http://www.digirails.com/en/model-train-accessories/control/dr4101-switch-motor-interface.html

 

The Servo driver also looks rather useful and is only 50 euros with 4 servos:

 

http://www.digirails.com/en/model-train-accessories/control/complete-set-including-1x-servo-decoder-4x-mini-servo-and-4x-50cm-extension-cable.html

 

Keith

Edited November 3, 2013 by melmerby

[gordon s]

Six years later and Google comes to my assistance.....

 

I have an NCE Procab and was thinking along the lines of a conventional panel with layout map to control around 60 Tortoise motors, but having trawled the web, the ESU ECoS system with an on screen layout display would save a lot of time for me. If I understand correctly the NCE Switch 8 would control the Tortoise motors, but would they be compatible with the ECoS Command system. There is some information on the web re the ECoS, but it's a little vague in terms of operating Tortoise motors.

 

I appreciate there are far less expensive options, but the time saving (and skill required) in producing a complex control panel, could make a DCC solution a viable option. My own layout could accommodate three/four operators across an 18' sure room or I will be operating on my own. That brings into question one operating position (fine for me) but we'd all get in each others way, or separate operating positions, which could be an issue when working on your own.

 

The key issue for me is a decent layout display and operation of Tortoise motors. As they are already in place, servo's are not an option.

 

Any ideas/recommendations appreciated.

Edited January 28, 2020 by gordon s

[melmerby]

The NCE Switch-8s are operated by the DCC signal so will work with any system.

(There are also Switch-its if you only need two instead of 8 outputs)

 

The Mk2 version (which is the version now available) can also be powered by an external supply, so not draining current from the DCC bus.

[Oldddudders]

The Hare and Wabbit products from US firm DCC Specialties plug directly onto the Tortoise's contacts. They work well but may not be the cheapest.

[Suzie]

Just be aware that some American decoders are not compatible with Railcom, before you buy any American decoders from the likes of NCE it will be worth checking that they are fully compatible with the latest DCC standards.

 

You might like to look at the DCC Concepts AD-8FX as well.

[RFS]

If you decide to go for the NCE Switch-8 then make sure it's the MK.2 version and not the MK.1. The newer version fixes some issues and also has the ability to use an external power supply instead of using up DCC track voltage. 

 

And as Suzie has just mentioned, neither version is compatible with Railcom and will not work if Railcom is enabled. I operate mine using a separate bus and DCC controller - Lenz LZV200 for the track with Railcom enabled, and LZV100 with Railcom disabled for the turnouts and all other accessories. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by RFS

[Phil Bullock]

56 minutes ago, gordon s said:

Six years later and Google comes to my assistance.....

 

I have an NCE Powercab and was thinking along the lines of a conventional panel with layout map to control around 60 Tortoise motors, but having trawled the web, the ESU ECoS system with an on screen layout display would save a lot of time for me. If I understand correctly the NCE Switch 8 would control the Tortoise motors, but would they be compatible with the ECoS Command system. There is some information on the web re the ECoS, but it's a little vague in terms of operating Tortoise motors.

 

I appreciate there are far less expensive options, but the time saving (and skill required) in producing a complex control panel, could make a DCC solution a viable option. My own layout could accommodate three/four operators across an 18' sure room or I will be operating on my own. That brings into question one operating position (fine for me) but we'd all get in each others way, or separate operating positions, which could be an issue when working on your own.

 

The key issue for me is a decent layout display and operation of Tortoise motors. As they are already in place, servo's are not an option.

 

Any ideas/recommendations appreciated.

 

Abbotswood Junction has run with ECoS and SMD82 (But now SMD84) accessory decoders for 5 years. You can either do as you suggest and go for a panel display on ECoS or group the accessories together on ECoS to form routes - which is what I did, a single button to change all points and signals, grouped together in folders on ECoS based on starting location. Guest operators found that pretty intuitive but you have to get the programming right in the first instance.

 

SMDs also support routes within themselves (8 outputs) but I never used that. Points were tortoise motors and our semaphore signals were worked by PL10 solenoid motors so individual outputs on the SMDs were configured for either stall motor or solenoid as part of programming. I have no reason to doubt that any of the other sophisticated accessory controllers above could not deliver the same funtionality - and I have also yet to encounter anyone who splashed out on ECoS who has regretted it! Its the dogs whatsits.....

 

[meil]

The MERG steady state accessory decoder (kit 53) is designed for Tortoise motors - it costs £13.

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, gordon s said:

.....I appreciate there are far less expensive options, but the time saving (and skill required) in producing a complex control panel, could make a DCC solution a viable option. .....

 

Control panels and DCC are not mutually exclusive Gordon.

You could use a mimic style control panel, or just a bank of switches....or mini point levers....to operate your points by DCC.

You would still need to make the panel and wire it up, but all the wiring is contained under the panel itself, connected to a little control module that runs the whole thing.

That control module is then just connected to your throttle bus, as it acts just like any other handset.

No wires running from the panel to each point.

 

It would be possible to operate your points from both the DCC system and from a mimic control panel, with the displayed settings replicated on each other.

 

Alternatively, a separate DCC point control system, independent of the main train control DCC system, can be used.

Such a stand-alone DCC point control system could even be used on a layout where DC is used to control the trains.

There are a number of options available.

 

 

 

.

[gordon s]

Thanks Ron. OK, a long time ago I played around with route selection via a diode matrix and solenoid motors, It all worked well, but then I started building my own pointwork and the general consensus was to change to Tortoise motors which I did. Next stage was to build a very simple control panel, purely to see if I could and this was the end result.

 

 

Move forward 12 years or so and I'm building a new layout that will require a control system. I was told that it's difficult to have a diode matrix controlling Tortoise motors, so the whole control issue was set aside ......and still is.

 

What I would like is a visual display to show me what route is actively set. The box above had red/green led's, but for some reason the red wasn't showing in this pic. 

 

I also want the ability to switch turnouts one at a time, but also have route setting. ET has four approach/exit tracks and five platform faces plus a goods relief loop. It would be great to have route setting from either end of the through station.

 

I happened to see an ECoS on You Tube and thought this may be a relatively simple way of achieving both goals, but as always, questions have arisen as to what can be done.

 

With 60+ turnouts and no doubt, as many signals when I get to that stage, it is probably far too complex for me to make. I can cope with simple circuits, but much more than that I would be way out of my depth.

 

The whole layout is DCC and at present I have a NCE ProCab to run locos but purely in a test phase as there is still much to be done. Four Switch-8s would run both ends of the station, but I am wary of using different components from several suppliers because is something doesn't work as it should, I know from experience they all blame the other guy....

 

Time is also of the essence as I'm conscious the years are flying by and I've been faffing about with layout builds for far too many years....

 

JJGRaphics has very kindly offered to demo his ECoS on Friday, so I should have a better understanding by the weekend.

 

Thanks for all your responses. There's a lot to take in.

 

 

 

 

[newbryford]

51 minutes ago, gordon s said:

 

 

The whole layout is DCC and at present I have a NCE ProCab to run locos but purely in a test phase as there is still much to be done. Four Switch-8s would run both ends of the station, but I am wary of using different components from several suppliers because is something doesn't work as it should, I know from experience they all blame the other guy....

 

 

 

 

Whilst the ECoS is a good system, it can be a disadvantage to switch between driving and layout screens.

 

As you have a NCE system, you could use the DCC Concepts Alpha encoder plugged directly into your Procab.

 

You can build a normal mimic-style control panel diagram with switches and lights - the switches are wired to the encoder and this then piggybacks the DCC commands onto your NCE system.

As long as you have suitable decoders for your Tortoises (There are 2,4 and 6 way devices in the AD-FX range as mentioned by Suzie above) or your NCE Switch-its, the point motors will operate.

 

Then you display the same DCC commands on your panel as LEDs using the Alpha Mimic control board.

So even if you change points with your Procab, the diagram will show this.

 

Connections between control panel and layout - one command bus cable out and the 2-wire DCC feed back to the panel.

 

And you can have local control panels around the layout.

 

Although Alpha doesn't do route setting - but they have said that they are working on a system - you can incorporate a NCE mini-panel for route setting. Again - this plugs into your Procab.

And again, routes set via this would be shown on the Alpha Mimic system.

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by newbryford

[Ron Ron Ron]

6 hours ago, newbryford said:

.....Connections between control panel and layout - one command bus cable out and the 2-wire DCC feed back to the panel.

Sorry to be pedantic, but the highlighted bit should be “one cab bus cable out”, for the NCE system.

 

However, I agree that it’s certainly worth looking at the DCC  Concepts Alpha and Alpha Mimic products.

My understanding is there are some new enhancements on the way for this kit, making it even more useful. I’ve no idea when they’ll be available though.

As you say, Alpha just plugs into the NCE Cab Bus, effectively as another cab, while the Mimic just plugs into the track Power Bus and reads the DCC Commands being sent to the point motor accessory decoders, which it then uses to illuminate the LEDs on the mimic display panel.

Works with virtually any DCC System as well.

What could be easier?

 

 

.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron